A mini tourney- Spoilers

[Alkis]

I started the game with the idea to play as I normally do. I played the Germans before, but only once. Anyway, since it wouldn't be realistic to build a temple I started by building warrior but since I had the wheat tile without a mine yet, my town grew quickly to size two. I increased the luxuries rate and changed warrior to settler. So the first thing builded was a settler and I had 2 towns really early without even adding the worker to city.

By that time I had mines so I builded several warriors, then another two settlers. I made contact with the English first, then the Russians but they already had all technologies so I didn't have the chance to make any interesting deals.

Two good moves: First, I made a new city on the nearest dye tile. It was one square away from Berlin but I didn't mind that. After all it was a temporary town. This way I got a luxury really early. I would take forever to build a road there. Also when I finally abandoned the town I had a jungle tile transformed to grassland. That town served me well, I builded a barracks and many spearmen there, as well as many workers. Second, I put all my resourses in discovering a technology first. I chose Mathematics. When I got it, Liz gave me two techs plus gold for it, Cathy 2 techs and when I contacted Joan there was only Mysticism left so I exchanged it for that. With that I was finally equal in technology with the others. Then I chose currency, discovered it first and the same scenario repeated itself. I got everything and came out of the ancient times.

Then I discovered the Republic and changed goverment immediately. Of course Liz and Cathy were asking for a tribute from time to time. Well, since I am a peaceful person and for the sake of world peace, bla, bla I gave them what they wanted .

At one point I had a disaster. I got a message "barbarian uprising near Cologne", ok Cologne was more or less safe, but the barbs appeared near another town. I tried to give my gold away but there were no interesting deals, so the only thing I could do was establish embasies everywhere. I had only two warriors in the town so you can imagine that I lost both, plus a lot of gold, plus my work on temple, plus some citizens were killed. I never reload so I just accepted that and played on.

My neighbours fought several wars while I kept building marketplaces, libraries, temples etc. Very often the Russians used my territory to get to the English land and fight. Oh well, I didn't protest about that.

My biggest mistake was that I didn't realize that at same point the French were actually killing the English. I immediately allied with the French but it was too late. I just managed to get two towns from the English and that was all. Then I builded another two. Now, something really peculiar... although I had more than double culture than the French and even though some of their towns were surrounded by mine not one ever defected. If you see my saves, have a look at Strasburg, it has a city radius of only 4 tiles, all others are taken by me. Yet it didn't flip (wtf).

I got my golden age when I completed the Universal Suffrage (I also had ToE). These two plus Hoover dam are the only wonders I have built. Meanwhile the French who had almost wiped out the English were beating the Russians badly, so if I didn't want a really difficult position I had to take part in the war. I signed I MPP with the Russians and after war to France was declared I asked the help of the Iroquois and the Romans. The Egyptians were allied with the French so in the end it was Germany, Russia, Rome and Iroquois against France, Egypt and the Aztecs. In the end the Iroquois won against the Aztecs and got all of their small continent, Egypt destroyed the Romans and Germany beat France. The Russians were so weakened that after some 14 turns of war they were still fighting against the initial French expeditionary force who was inside their territory.

I was the main winner of the war. I took 2 towns and razed about 10. I am very glad that I finally got rid of all those French towns who were literally inside my kingdom. I also got a leader so I moved my Palace near the place where London once was. I builded 5 new towns and even though it's rather late in the game, they will grow quickly because the terrain is already worked and I have the money to rush buildings where needed.

It's 1455 AD now and I am ahead by 3 techs (Mass production, Motorized transportation and Electronics). I have 120 infantries and I am building Panzers now. I don't know if I will use them but anyway, I think I will make some dozens of them just in case.

Something strange happened when I could trade with Russia for the first time. I gave them a tech for furs plus money per turn. Then some rounds later I couldn't trade anymore. No one of us was in any wars. That way I lost not only the furs but also the gold per turn (thank you Firaxis). I think it's a bug isn't it? For some reason the AI considered the trade route disrupted, but why?

Another funny thing; During the war with France I had war weariness. I sure had because I was in Democracy and that was another "mistake" I think. At the time when I changed only the n turns in Anarchy seemed to be the problem. Anyway, despite the unrest in my cities and the fact that I had to allocate 30% to luxuries I stayed loyal to the Russians. Then at some point they signed a peace treaty with the French. I signed too. But now the Russians are furious towards me. Wtf, they dishonored our treaty and they are also mad at me?

From the members of our elite company you Sir Ralph are the most predictable I think . My guess is you attacked the Russians first and managed to get the area below the mountains. But my guess stops here, I don't know if you attacked the English in the jungle. I am very curious to see how you attacked and when.

And generally I am very curious to see how some of you, who are Masters of attack, played that position. The interesting thing is that the terrain isn't very hospitable. The Russians seem the obvious choice but then what? Will you sacrifice the many turns needed to attack the English in the jungle? As for myself I waited for the others to clear the jungle and when I finally got the land it wasn't jungle anymore .

In all, a very interesting and challenging game. At some point I thought I would be the only one not to win it.

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[Harovan]

Hehe , so I am the most predictable here, and probably attacked the Russians early, but maybe not the English? You are funny, Alkis. Sure I attacked them. Both. With archers, since iron was far.

I set up my 4 city archer production and pruned both English and Russians. Liz was easy prey and I took London early, razed one more city and got one for peace. But Cathy was a warmongering b1tch. She tried to extort me. Good that I already had prepared an archer stack to attack. I crippled the Russians as well, but not as much as the English. In general, this map was for slowmovers. Jungle to the north, hills and mountains to the south. I didn't bother to build horsemen till the dawn of the medieval age. After the early oscillating wars I REXed like there was no tomorrow. Claimed all land, jungle and mountains. The Russians had a bloody war with the English for thousands of years and permanently violated my borders. I let them go. Eventually they wiped the English out. They respawned on the eastern peninsula of our continent.

After I discovered Chivalry I upgraded about 10 prebuilt Horsemen to Knights and asked the Russians to leave. Of course, they declared war. I killed their forces easily, since they had neither horses nor iron after the early wars. Then attacked their cities. Again and again. I had some bad luck with my elites, no leader for long. Finally I made a leader about 400AD, who became my FP in London. A second one later became Bachs. Soon I had the Russians down to some 5 or 6 cities.

I had claimed a lot of land, but since I hadn't built any improvements till about 500AD, my culture was awfully low. Even less than in the first minitourney. I started to build up my cities. My 1-shield cities produced lots of workers. Together with my numerous slaves, they cleaned the jungle. By 1000AD it was gone. This made me a beautifull grassy coreland between my Palace and FP. My core cities built up in the order Library-Temple-Marketplace-(Aqueduct)-University-Bank-Cathedral. This was possible, since I had built my cities dense and had rushed Bachs. 4 luxuries made a comfortable Republic.

You probably noticed, that I haven't mentioned the French yet. They grew undisturbed (too far for my archers) and soon were the #1 civ, with about 4-5 techs lead. I started a race after them. My coastal 1-shield cities switched from workers to galleys. I sank about 10 galleys, until I had discovered both other continents. The civs there were backwards, and didn't even know each about other. I traded with them a bit, but didn't sell communications to them till the French started to build Magellans. Then I traded all communications and maps, made a couple of techs and money. About 1000AD the French lead was about 3 techs. They were in the industrial age and had Nationalism, I still had 2 mandantory medieval techs to research. Eventually the English attacked me. Funny, as they played OCC. They attacked a crappy city at the peninsula, I got from the Russians for peace, and failed. I sent 3 knights and wiped them out completely.

I stayed peaceful and broke even in tech with the ToE. After this, I got a lead. After I had Refining, I saw that I have no oil. The Russians have 1 resource. This sealed their death. They were already at war with Egypt. I didn't want them to ally up with Joan and signed a MPP with her. It was cheap, only 10 gold. That was wise. As soon as the war begun, I saw a stack of 196 french units approaching Russia. It's the biggest stack I ever saw. I succeeded to take 2 Russian cities with Cavalries (I had to research MilTrad, since nobody else did). A third, the Egyptians took. Of course, the one with the oil, dang! The Russians were gone, and I took the egyptian city, securing the oil for me.

This is the current status. It's 1490AD, I will have Motorized Transportation in 5 turns. I have a lead of 2 techs, have by far the biggest territory, but in the powergraph I am only the 2nd. That doesn't matter. I think, I get some Panzers and decide, what civ will make my GA (didn't have it yet).

Or I stay peaceful and build the spaceship. Anyway, I think I have the game in the pocket.

[nbarclay]

I’ve played the game to 880 AD so far, but I’m going to break up its story into parts.

Dateline: Paris, Germany, 170 AD

I tried a “settler pump” opening again, but a combination of jungle, mountains, and, worst of all, barbarians really messed it up. Berlin churned out lots of workers in the early years (with a granary, it could do a worker in two turns or a settler in four), but the number and quality of cities I could found wasn’t what I really wanted. I was also in some pretty serious trouble in terms of research. Still, all those workers Berlin churned out were a big help in making a dent in the jungles. (The first save game in the attached zip file is from around the time I finished my initial expansion.)

With my natural growth hemmed in earlier than I had hoped for, warfare looked like the only option. I decided Russia should be my target, partly because it was already at war with England and France but mostly to consolidate my frontiers so I wouldn’t have powerful neighbors all around me.

But then Joan painted a beautiful bull’s-eye on Paris. The city already had the Pyramids, and then it got a significant head start building the Great Library. “Ah-ha,” my mind went. If Joan completed the Great Library and I took it, I would be caught up with my rivals in tech! Better, if I gambled on counting on that strategy and it worked, I could avoid buying or researching anything not needed for the military campaign (or the associated cultural campaign, which required libraries).

I’d already started upgrading warriors to swordsmen for my planned war, and it was a simple (albeit not instantaneous) matter to shift my forces from the Russian front to the French one. I started my attack in 450 BC and actually ended up working my way around Paris waiting for the Great Library to be completed. I finally captured the city (and the Library) in 50 AD.

In the meantime, I’d decided I had enough troops and shifted my production to libraries in order to build up enough culture to hold my conquests. Paris did flip on me during the war (I didn’t even try to stop it while France’s capital was nearby), but I eventually took the rest of the cities in the region except for one. Then the French capital shifted to Grenoble on the northeastern peninsula and I decided to make peace and stuff a bunch of swordsmen in Paris to try to keep it from flipping. (I’d been stationing my swordsmen just outside the city so I could recapture it immediately if it flipped.)

France gave me its remaining cities other than its capital in return for peace, including Hannover, an isolated and essentially worthless German city they’d managed to capture. The year was 170 AD.

Just a little before the war ended, I got my first great leader, who rushed my forbidden palace in Lyons southeast of Paris. With a couple swordsmen for a garrison in a city with only one French “citizen” and no known French culture when I took it, the risk seemed acceptable. I would have preferred a location in northern England, but getting the FP built quickly seemed more important and the world’s technology seemed to be progressing too quickly for another attack using swordsmen. (Then, too, I needed a large garrison in Paris if I wanted to keep my wonders, and swordsmen couldn’t do garrison duty and attack England at the same time.)

As a footnote, when the German Republic was instituted after the war, Germany found itself the largest, most productive, most literate, and wealthiest nation in the known world. (Which probably shouldn’t be surprising since it controlled essentially all of the land originally held by two nations, and its forbidden palace served as a capital of the second “nation” for corruption purposes. I'd even used pop-rushing to finish building at least a couple libraries in conquered French territory.)

The enclosed zip file contains two saves: one from around the time I finished my initial expansion and the other from when I took Paris. If you download them, you might want to put them in a separate folder since I don’t have my name in the individual files.

[nbarclay]

After the conquest of France, Germany enjoyed over three centuries of peace and prosperity interrupted only by a brief “training exercise” capturing the French capital when they were rude enough not to give up a second city they’d founded. At first, Germany relied solely on the Great Library for its technological progress, but after learning of Gunpowder, Bismarck became fascinated and ordered his people to see what other chemical marvels they could come up with. That decision would later prove to be highly fortuitous.

During that period, Germany’s military was largely neglected in favor of peaceful pursuits. Berlin started work on the Sistine Chapel to show the world that the nation could produce great wonders of its own instead of having to conquer them.

The Germans obtained contact with the other nations of the world in 330 AD. Germany found that its culture was not yet the world’s greatest, but that was gaining ground rapidly. In other non-military respects, Germany had no rival.

Then, sometime in the early 500’s, Russia decided to attack. (I’m almost sure I agreed to the demand they made right before they attacked, but either I clicked the wrong place or they pulled one of the most reprehensible double-crosses in history.) The nasty thing was that most of Germany’s forces were still in the North serving as garrisons and contemplating one last “training exercise” against France when the latest peace treaty expired. The nastier thing was that Russia had longbowmen to attack with.

But then fate dealt Germany two trump cards. First, Russia cut off Germany’s only connected iron supply. Neither side knew it at the time, but that turned out to be one of the hugest mistakes in history. Because around 560 AD, a great leader emerged to rush Leonardo’s Workshop to completion, dealing Germany its second trump card. Germany entered a golden age, and was cranking out horsemen like there was no tomorrow. Better, the discovery of Military Tradition was now less than a century away.

(As a side note, I don’t mind waiting to connect or reconnect a resource so I can defer building newer units, but I regard deliberately disconnecting my own resources as too much of an exploit and too unrealistic. It seems reasonable that a nation cut off from a resource might say, “We don’t need it yet, so we’ll build units with what we have and upgrade them when we’re ready.” But deliberately building obsolete units when both the technology and the resources for more modern ones are in place is much harder to justify.)

For the next century or so, Germany was content with a defensive holding action, using an alliance with England (obtained for two luxuries and a handful of pocket change) to help keep the northernmost of Russia’s forces busy. Fortunately, the Russian generals were total incompetents. When the initial attack failed beyond taking a single, almost worthless city (guess which one), reinforcements tended most often to come in one unit at a time. The results of such idiocy generally looked more like executions than battles. On two occasions, Russia even tried to send a settler escorted only by a single spear unit through my territory. Thanks for the free workers, Cathy!

Then Germany figured out how to turn its horsemen into cavalry. From then on, every turn, six or seven more newly upgraded cavalry units swept into Russia (after a slight delay crossing the border). Interestingly, I learned of Education through the Great Library about that time, so essentially my only cavalry were upgraded horsemen and knights. Cities that had been cranking out horsemen like mad suddenly found themselves too busy with other pursuits to take the time building cavalry from the ground up.

Elite sword units first established for the French campaign opened the offensive with an attack on Odessa, since the area’s rugged terrain prevented the cavalry from pulling ahead of them. Germany’s third great leader emerged from the battle and immediately formed a cavalry army. The very next turn, another great leader emerged from another victory by antiquated elite swordsmen and rushed the Heroic Epic to completion. From then on, it was a classic demonstration of what a force that eventually built to over fifty cavalry can do to a defensive force containing far more spearmen than musketmen (and not a single pikeman that I recall).

The only reason Russia survived at all was that it held two thirds of an island southwest of the continent and Germany had no navy of any kind. As it was, they were reduced to a single city (at least for the time being, but that’s another chapter).

By the way, if you have trouble figuring out the “briar patch” reference in the heading, you obviously haven’t read the right Brer Rabbit story (or had it read to you). “Please, please don’t throw me into that briar patch.” “Please, please don’t disconnect my iron so I have to build thirty-shield horsemen instead of seventy-shield knights.”

The enclosed zip file has four saves: (1) Right after I gained contact with the overseas civs, (2) the dawn of my golden age, (3) about a turn after I discovered Education, about the time I launched my offensive against Russia, and (4) right after the defeat of Russia. I hope this isn’t too many, but I figure someone might be interested in them to get a better feel for my strategy and playing style.

Nathan

[nbarclay]

In the early years of the Russian war, popular sentiment toward England in Germany was almost entirely positive. But once the German offensive began, England was consuming German luxuries and seemingly doing little of value in return. Only a few extremists were actually angry toward England over the situation - Germany certainly didn’t need anyone’s help anymore - but the strong pro-English sentiment of previous times no longer existed.

Then the Russian war ended and Germany found itself with its cavalry force almost completely intact. The golden age had ended, but the nation was still very much in the grip of war fever. England just happened to make a perfect target.

For just over half a century, German cavalry rested, healed, and repositioned themselves. Then in 840 AD, three separate cavalry detachments swept into Oxford, Dover, and through Brighton into Hastings. A much smaller southern force failed in its initial attack on Norwich, but a follow-up succeeded (albeit pushing my cavalry army dangerously into the red). York, Newcastle, and Coventry fell on the second turn, and London, Nottingham, and Warwick on the third. That turn, I also got my fifth great leader from (believe it or not) an old elite swordsman unit fighting outside Norwich. Taking the last two English cities, one of them a conquest from Russia, took two more turns, just because the terrain slowed me down.

Moscow defected back to Russia right before the war, and St. Petersburg joined it toward the end of the war. I’m in no hurry to retake the cities, since one shield and one gold a turn doesn’t contribute much to my economy and any units they build are extra chances to get great leaders . (Although getting the Hanging Gardens back would be nice. )

But now I’m in a dilemma. I still have forty-five cavalry left, plus seventeen musketmen, nine longbowmen, twenty-six swordsmen, and a couple other assorted units. I’m a turn away from being first to discover Astronomy, so the world as a whole is just over four techs away from Nationalism even on a beeline. That would almost certainly give me plenty of time to build ships and take out Rome and Egypt for a domination victory before riflemen can become a factor. (If I do that, my unused leader can build Magellan’s Voyage to speed up my sea travel.)

Part of me wants to do that, but another part thinks, “what’s the point”? I already have more territory than I can make productive, so further conquest would drain Germany more than help it. The role player in me thinks it makes more sense to build up what I have rather than seeking further conquest. In implementing that idea, the logical next move (once I get Bach’s Cathedral, which I’m building in Berlin the hard way) is to move my palace to the southwest to make my conquered Russian territory worth something.

I’ll most likely end up playing out both endings, partly to see how the scores compare. I’m not quite sure which one I’ll do first, but I’ll probably try the peaceful approach first.

I’m enclosing two more saves, one right before the war with England and another right after. By the way, I already had so many surplus military units going into the war that building more simply made no sense (since I wasn’t contemplating an overseas invasion until I saw how many of my cavalry survived the English campaign).

Nathan

[nbarclay]

I noticed my attachments to the last couple messages didn't go through. I'm also going to have to split the one from the Russian story into two for size reasons. Here's the first part regarding Russia.

[nbarclay]

Second pair from the Russian story:

[nbarclay]

And from the English story.

[Theseus]

I got to the point where spoilers don;t matter, so I went ahead and read this stuff.

You guys are doing much better than I, with a variety of strats... I ma getting F*CKED!!!

I don't know, either I wasn;t aggressive enough, or the opposite, but I've been playing catch-up the whole game.

I guess I did not do enough oscillating damage; in my quest to create killer AI civs, I've now got France and Russia as dreadnought threats. I'm around 1000AD, totally outclassed in tech and military... if I come back from this it will be legendary.

I'm keeping a log, and when I get to a point that I can post SAVs and keep my self-respect, I'll tell the whole miserable story.

[Alkis]

I won by diplomatic victory on 1680 AD getting a score of 3980 (I know, it isn't imppressive). I had a space victory in mind but I was building the UN for safety reasons (I wasn't very popular). At some point the Egyptians attacked me. I had a colony city on their continent (just for the gems) which I lost, of course. That was a great opportunity to sign MPP with Russia and Iroquois. I asked the French too but they wanted a great deal of money.

Since all other civs were eliminated I wasn't risking anything to accept the elections. My two allies would never vote against me. One other thing is that I didn't know who would be my rival in the elections. France had better score and probably stronger military but Egypt had better culture and infrastructure. In any case both the Russians and the Iroquois would not vote for France who has been their enemy for years.

In the end it was Bismark vs Cleopatra and I got the two votes from my allies. Joan abstained.

The game was won anyway, I was leading by numerous technologies. I had rocketry, fission, ecology, space flight and the others were still in the industrial age without even electronics. I had constructed three spaceship parts so I could as well refuse the elections. But since I have done that so many times, a diplo victory was ok and a relief actually because my PC slows down in the modern age.

When I watched the replay I realized that I was #1 in the number of cities and this continued up to when I had 8 cities. What happened after? Well, I don't know, I didn't watch all the replay .

About the saves I have an idea. Since we can't post large files can you please email them to me? My email is martides@spidernet.com.cy

I will send mine to anyone who wants them, just give me an email address.

I made a record! I had the biggest city in all my playing experience. Bonn, my new Capitol grew to a size of... hm I don't remember but probably 26 or maybe even more.

Theseus, it's your bad positions that everybody wants to see I have included a save where my position isn't very good, I am under attack from the French who have a lot of units but I thought it would be interesting for the others to see. I think I also have another just before 1x barbarians drained my treasury.

Sir Ralph, I got your message, you didn't attack the English to get the jungle but to cripple them and to get London, right?

Naive question, is it possible to change the location of your forbidden palace? I wasn't satisfied with my FP's location so wanted to move it, I had a leader but there was no way to do it.

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[Harovan]

Originally posted by Alkis
Sir Ralph, I got your message, you didn't attack the English to get the jungle but to cripple them and to get London, right?

Yes. Although also with the intent to claim the jungle. My inner eye saw grassland on his place when planning cities. I put a big effort in cleaning it.

Naive question, is it possible to change the location of your forbidden palace? I wasn't satisfied with my FP's location so wanted to move it, I had a leader but there was no way to do it.

I'm unsure, if you can rebuild it after the city is destroyed. But that would destroy all the other improvements in that city too. I think you should plan the FP location carefully. You can always move your palace around with GLs, but not your FP.

Guys, I had an awful night... About 1:30am (just ONE turn more), the French attacked me with the mentioned huge stack... I played till dawn, went to bed at 5:30am... geez, I'm sleepy now. My boss will love me for this. Shortly: I have 4 spaceship parts built, managed to survive the stack and to kill about 75% of it, but my coreland took a big damage due to bombardements. Got 4 GLs in that process, the Manhattan project, the SS thrusters and 2 armies of Panzers. I made a HUGE mistake, signing a MPP with the Iroquois, when I saw the stack approach. I can't get out of the war, and WW drives me crazy and cripples my Republic (not even Democracy!) even to starvation. At a point, I united the World against Joan the Evil, maybe the next UN vote goes into my favor. I will play it out this evening... if I won't need the time to get a new job after getting fired.

[Alkis]

Nathan,
I had a look at your saves, they are interesting. It seems you didn't build many towns in the beginning. In my game I expanded like crazy and managed to build towns on the spots where Kharkon, Astrakhan and Vladivostock stand in your game. I also made one on the other side on the hill near the wales, two tiles away from the Russian town. But I guess you were busy building military units .

Another difference in our styles is that I build a lot of spearmen. Longbowmen on the other hand I think I never had, even a single one.

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[nbarclay]

The reason I didn't expand farther early was that barbarians slowed me down. I didn't build enough military early to beat them out of my way. Had my "settler pump" strategy not misfired, I would have had several more cities. As it was, I could have grabbed a little more territory, but I was afraid doing so would get me into a conflict with England or Russia before I was ready. So I had to go to "Plan B" and conquer territory instead.

As best I recall, this is probably the first time I've built longbowmen in over six months, since maybe about my third game. The reason was that Russia was attacking Munich, and trying to keep Russian forces from getting on any of the three mountain tiles facing the city didn't seem like a viable option. If Russia had been more aggressive and more competent at protecting their longbowmen with spearmen, the extra point of attack longbowmen have over swordsmen could have come in really handy to pick off enemy units before their longbowmen could strike. As it was, I built more than I needed, but the ones I got a chance to use did their jobs pretty well.

Please DON'T interpret this game as being typical of my playing style, although it's probably a whole lot more typical on Emperor than it is on Monarch. Mostly, it reflects my willingness to adjust my style to address the situation I happen to be faced with at a given time. This game and my game as the Germans in the current CivFanatics GOTM went almost completely differently.

Nathan

[Harovan]

Ok, my nightmare ended after 1 turn this evening. UN-vote, 3 for Bismarck, 1 abstains, Joan for Joan. Diplomatic victory 1730AD, score 4328. That was a hard struggle.

Later more (savegames, may be a map). I'm out for a beer now. Here's an awful heat.

[Alkis]

Nathan,
The game was hard, no doubt. We also set barbs to restless, as if Emperor level combined with bad terrain wasn't enough. Anyway, what I did was that I builded a lot of warriors and actually attacked a couple of barbarian tents. To get 25 gold that early is a great deal of money. The comment on the longbowmen was a positive one. I know that most players don't build them but they have their uses as you rightly said. I think that all of you are excellent players.

Do you remember Dune, where they used windtraps to get every single drop of water? I am like that, I don't want to waste anything. That's why I avoid early wars. But I use opportunities, to grab more land. I think the combat thingy of this game is ****ed up. I get some results that are so irrational that I don't want to battle anymore. Losing knights to archers, for instance. This should never happen.

It is interesting how the three of us managed to get technology. Sir Ralph did that by beating AI civs and extorting technology, you got it from the GL and I by researching certain technologies first. I entered the middle ages at about 850 BC. One question, did you actually build all those swordsmen (33 ) or did you build warriors and then upgraded them?

Sir Ralph,
I would like to see your saves, so if you can please email them to me. Then I' ll have your email to send you mine. Btw the picture under your name is it you now, or is it you in a previous life?

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[Harovan]

Originally posted by Alkis
Sir Ralph,
I would like to see your saves, so if you can please email them to me. Then I' ll have your email to send you mine. Btw the picture under your name is it you now, or is it you in a previous life?

I have numerous saves, I will collect the most interesting this evening and send you, or may be post here.

As for the picture, that's field marshal von Blücher, one of the Prussian generals in the liberation wars against Napoleon. He was the one, whom Wellington summoned, saying "Night or the Prussians must come" at the battle field near Waterloo. No, it's not me, I look significantly worse .

[nbarclay]

Originally posted by Alkis
Nathan,

Do you remember Dune, where they used windtraps to get every single drop of water? I am like that, I don't want to waste anything. That's why I avoid early wars. But I use opportunities, to grab more land. I think the combat thingy of this game is ****ed up. I get some results that are so irrational that I don't want to battle anymore. Losing knights to archers, for instance. This should never happen.

If I can grab as much land as I think I'll need without an early war, I much prefer not to let early fighting get in the way of my building. Any early fighting is more likely to be with "surplus" units built when my cities don't have anything better to do, or as part of an "archers explore" opening designed to cripple a neighbor or two early at a relatively low cost. (Note: I'm skeptical as to how well "archers explore" would work on Emperor, which is one of the reasons I didn't try it this game.)

That was more or less how things went in the first mini-tourney. Had America not attacked me, I would hardly have had any military until such a time as some of my core cities had nothing particularly better to do than to build units. (And when America did attack, I had a real scramble for a while building up the forces I needed to beat off the attack and do similar damage to them before making peace.) As I recall, after that war, I didn't fight again until my core cities were mostly built up and finishing America off wouldn't interfere significantly with my research. And the samurai and cavalry I dominated the world with were mostly excess production!

But sometimes, as in this game, I don't feel like I have enough land to build my "windtraps" in (to continue the Dune analogy). Then it's worth sacrificing some early water-gathering ability to have more windtraps to collect more water later. And when a perfect opportunity to grab "water" equivalent to what everyone else has collected shows up...

I'm now researching my fifth Industrial tech (including the one I got free) in 1200 AD, and I'm at or near a four-turn-per-tech pace (depending on which tech is involved) even with my capital moved to the original German/Russian border and very few city improvements yet in my conquered English and Russian territories. So I've more or less caught up with where you were in tech, and I shouldn't have any hiccups at all going into the modern age with how built up my added cities will be by then. (I've also already made the transition to Democracy, by the way.) Just goes to show that there's more than one path to scientific success.

My feelings about the combat system are somewhat mixed but generally favorable. For the most part, I actually like the fact that no matter how superior an attacking unit looks on paper, the attack is never a sure thing. It makes me do a bit more contingency planning, which adds a little to the strategic depth of the game.

It is interesting how the three of us managed to get technology. Sir Ralph did that by beating AI civs and extorting technology, you got it from the GL and I by researching certain technologies first. I entered the middle ages at about 850 BC. One question, did you actually build all those swordsmen (33 ) or did you build warriors and then upgraded them?

Some of each. Many, probably a majority, of the first attackers were upgraded warriors. But I kept building more swordsmen to send in until I was sure I had the upper hand. The way I figure it, if I attack with decisive force, the war will be shorter and the AI won't have as much time to build units to kill my units. So when I do launch a war on my own initiative, I don't do it halfway. (Also, short, decicive wars pose no real war weariness problem in a Republic or Democracy, not that that mattered in my French campaign.)

Nathan

[Harovan]

Originally posted by Alkis
It is interesting how the three of us managed to get technology. Sir Ralph did that by beating AI civs and extorting technology, ...

In the early game - yes. I had my own research low, at 10-20%, sometimes I put a scientist in a jungle city and set it at 0%. I have beaten techs mostly out of the Russians, as I had crippled the English too much, may be.

I also used my "scientistic" advantage. In the late ancient age I saw Joan already having entered the medieval age. I still had to complete Currency (about 20 turns left) and Construction. I bought both techs from Joan for 750 gold, got Monotheism for free and sold it to Joan for 775 gold. Not a bad deal, for both. And I saved money for upgrades.

In the medieval age I fired up my own research, but it was slow and got better only after the jungle was gone and my cities begun to grow. I concentrated on the "southern line", meaning the techs at the bottom of the tech tree. The AI mostly starts with the top. But I had bad luck researching a tech first, so Joans lead got bigger and bigger.

In the industrial age, I had Medicine first and made wonderful deals with that advantage! Finally, with the ToE I broke even and had a growing lead till the end.

[Arrian]

I'm with Theseus here - I'm not doing very well.

I built up normally, and pulled my chariot upgrade + swordsmen. I launched my attack vs. England with 19 horsemen and 5 or 6 swords. I took a few cities, but then to my horror, saw a pikeman in London. Peace, then. Not too long after that, I took a shot at Russia, but they were big and able to pump out enough longbowmen that my attack ground to a halt after three cities.

I built the Colossus, Great Library (!) and Bachs. I'm behind in tech... by a fair amount, I think. The French eventually opened up a MASSIVE can of whoopass on the English, destoying them with shocking speed and ease. As if they weren't big enough to start with. Thus far I've been on good terms with Joany, and hope to continue that, since she could squash me like a bug.

I have just entered the Industrial Age, and I'm #3 on the graph, but I'm a paper tiger. I have a weak army - I have not even upgraded my spearmen, and only a few horsies, knights and swords remain. At this point, my only hope rests in Panzers. But I have a major problem with productivity... I essentially have two good cities. I haven't cleared very much jungle.

I figure my only hope is to somehow wrangle some oil (I seriously doubt I'll have any within my borders), build some Panzers, and sail over to Azteca/Iroquoiland and kill them, then either sail over to Egypt/Rome or come on back and finish Russia.... but even then, I'm in serious trouble. The "giant pink vulture" is hanging above me.

-Arrian

[Harovan]

Arrian, I know you're more into fastmovers, but don't you think that they are pointless at this map? Mountains, hills and jungle everywhere. If you don't like archers (like I do), you still could use swordsmen. Germany starts 1 tech apart from iron working. There are 2 good iron sources within about 6-8 tiles (haven't access to the map right now). And if you attack so late, the effect of your attacks sink. When you attack early, when an AI civ has 5-6 cities, and you take 1 city, raze one and get one for peace, you crippled the AI 50%, may be at the cost of 3-4 units. Achieve this early on, and this AI is most likely out of the game. I did it with England and they couldn't recover anymore and soon were dust. Russia performed a bit better and stayed my punching bag till the industrial age. If you wait with your attack, the AI will have 10-12 cities (if not more) with more and better defenders. You mentioned pikemen. And it will have a bigger army. Fighting for the same 50% yields severe casualties.

[Arrian]

Yeah, in retrospect, your way works better for this map on this level of play. My mistake. I didn't realize just how fast the tech would move, resulting in English pikemen and Russian longbowmen. Blah. If I had it to do over again, I would have built 4-5 cities, with archers in between (training them on barbs), then barracks, a couple of spearmen, maybe another couple of archers. Then I would have sent them to England. Meanwhile, I would start building warriors and work on getting iron hooked up. Assuming the England force won, I would then use swords on Russia. But, this being my first attempt on Emperor, and me being stubborn, I chose... poorly.

By the way, I really don't like playing as Germany. The traits are mediocre, the UU too late.

-Arrian

[Harovan]

I have a collection of the following saves:

1350BC - Peace treaty, after attacking the English with Archers. The stack against Russians is on the way.
370BC - Peace treaty, after attacking the Russians with Archers. It was already the 2nd Russian war.
530AD - Contact to all civs. 3rd Russian war is running (or is it 4th... I'm unsure). Jungle cleaning is on the way. My culture is a mess.
1000AD - Jungle is gone. French entered the industrial age. My culture is still low, but growing. At this point I posted "I haven't the game in the pocket yet".
1445AD - The war for oil against Russia is about to begin. Light tech lead. One city flipped to the French . The Iroquois wiped out the Aztecs.
1655AD - Another city had flipped. Damn French culture . I begun to build the spaceship. Joad decides to use her last chance. Take a look at the gigantic sneak attack stack NE of Bremen. To make the spice colony in Egypt flip safe, I razed the Great Library. Talk about German culture . Still at peace, but soon the Hell broke lose. Welcome to my nightmare.
1725AD - My overnight save, as described above. Frustrated like hell! The world is united against Joan the Evil. One turn before the diplomatic victory.

PM me your EMail and what saves you want (or all), and I will send them. 3 of them (1350BC, 1000AD and 1725AD) I'm posting here, zipped:

[Catt]

What a game! Talk about taking us out of our comfort zone – this was really hard! Actually had me on the edge of my seat many, many times. At various times in the game, I was convinced I was hopelessly behind and that a loss was a certainty and just a matter of time, and then once (only once ) convinced I had put the game away – a radically inaccurate thought. In the end, a nail-biting spaceship victory in 1822, with a score of 3591. But I was never in control and victory was never assured. And, as you will see, the victory was a bit cheap.

A word of background. I have been playing on Monarch, experimenting with all random selections (to see if I can win given a “bad” civ and/or a “bad” start), and winning most games. I have played several games on Deity, but mostly for the experience (2 ass-whippings and one competitive loss). Before this mini-tourney, I had never played Emperor, and never won at Deity. Emperor was definitely a learning experience.

Now a word on the summary and attachments. I thought I would be able to include in the body of the summary screen shots from relevant points in the game. I am not allowed to do that (or if I can, I don’t know how ). So, at the bottom of the posts, I have included zip files which contain screen shots in jpeg format relevant to that particular post – I suggest that you scroll down and download the attachments so that you can view the screen shots as you read – I wrote the summary off line with the expectation that screen shots would be available, and it could conceivably be a bit hard to follow without the screen shots handy.

A Tale of Luck: Bad and Good

The start looked good, and I looked to use the good start to REX. Upon building Berlin, I could see dyes just out of reach of the first border expansion. Also a bit of jungle. As I normally do, I started building warriors for exploration and then settlers for expansion. I discovered incense to my south, and decided to grab it with my first settler. With only one citizen born content at Emperor, I made a decision I have never made before – I used my first worker (just as I was building a second) to build a colony on a dye north of Berlin. I couldn’t bear to have that one worker spend 24 turns building a “dye road” in the jungle, and I felt I needed the two luxuries early, and I needed to claim the incense to my south. Without 2 luxuries, I feared I would be unable to allow Berlin or my second or third city to grow beyond 4 or 5 pop if a long build were needed (I hoped to avoid spending on entertainment this early). I am still not sure if this was the right decision.

IIRC, I met both England and Russia at about the same time through their fast-moving scouts. The initial start (which originally looked good to me) looked less than ideal after trading maps – hemmed in by jungle to the north and mountains to the south and west. Ah well, a bit of bad luck. More disconcerting was the initial powergraphs of our three civilizations – I was third of three, well behind Russia early, and judging from the graph, doomed to fall farther behind. I didn’t have anything to trade to Liz for contact with the French. I was 3 or 4 techs behind, still working on the Wheel or Horseback Riding at 40 turns a tech. Russia was already at war with England in 1550 BC. I decided that my very survival was questionable – this before 1000 BC or so! Ugh – a very public (at Apolyton at least ) loss before 10 AD was a distinct possibility. I felt that Russia would become a behemoth unless I could somehow slow her down, and England had a smaller lead on me – a victorious English war against Russia could create a strong neighbor to my north.

I needed to go to war. As a militaristic civ, I counted on leader production as a key component of my success. Since I didn’t like the idea of trudging through jungle with my 2 move horseman reduced to 1 move, and I didn’t like the idea of a strong neighbor to my south-west and a pissed-off neighbor to my north, I settled on Mother Russia as my target. I began building chariots in anticipation of a horseman upgrade. My objectives in the First Russo-German War would be: (1) generate at least 1 great leader; (2) expand to the south-west; (3) inflict great damage on the burgeoning Russian empire.

I also believed that the entire fate of Germany rested on this first war effort. If I failed to do great damage to Russia, I would have effectively (1) weakened Germany through battle losses, perhaps fatally, and (2) created an enemy to my south-west which would eventually be able to overwhelm me. Failure could, and most likely would, mean an early exit from the mini-tourney game. I burned another worker to build a colony on an iron deposit just beyond recently expanded cultural borders – other than the chariot build, I had neglected my military in favor of settlers / workers – and could only upgrade 2 or 3 warriors to swordsman for horsemen escorts.

Around 390 BC I upgraded 16 chariots to horseman, and positioned my forces for a war of aggression against Russia.

I’ve attached a mini-map and the histograph from 370 BC.

Catherine helpfully had a few units within my territory, and a “Leave or declare war” from me produced the desired war. It did not last long; and I felt stretched thin towards the end, but all 3 objectives were achieved! I “made available” approximately 40% more territory for my expansion, destroying several cities (not by choice) and capturing several others. I also generated my first great leader. Since the leader came towards the “expected” end of the war, I saved him for a rushed Forbidden Palace near Moscow rather than an army. Had I earned a leader early in the war, I would have built an army, and counted on a second leader for a rushed FP. I did have my iron colony destroyed, and used a captured Russian worker to build another. My victory was a bit easier than planned because Cathy had a good number of her forces to the north, battling England.

I’ve attached a screen shot from a few turns after the First Russo-German war, showing the FP rushed near Moscow in 170 BC.

Germany then settled down to building out her new lands, and to preparing for the next, inevitable military confrontation. England had been embroiled in occasional hostilities with France, her neighbor to the north; she had also never shown much interest in fighting through the jungle, and had never presented a threat to Germany – the jungles were simply too thick to contemplate an inspiring ancient age war between Bismarck and Liz. After a short “rebuilding pause,” I knew that an additional war would be necessary, if only to generate the necessary great leaders.

With Russia severely damaged, I decided it was time to permanently cripple her. A good war would secure my south-west flank, generate at least one leader, and bring me further up the tech tree to compete with England and France for dominance on our continent. In 470 ad, Germany prepared for her next war of aggression, again targeting Mother Russia. Once again, horsemen would comprise the main attack force (Chivalry being some techs away).

I’ve attached a mini-map from 470 AD, immediately prior to the Second Russo-German War.

The war was successful by any conventional measure. However, to my great surprise, with my militaristic society and many elite horsemen itching to fight, I nonetheless failed to generate a leader, which would have enabled an army, and the much hoped-for Heroic Epic. Oh well, just a touch of bad luck. I did succeed in securing “my” portion of the continent – capturing or razing (again not intentionally) all but one Russian city to my south-west. Both Moscow and St. Petersburg flipped back to Catherine before the war was won (on the same turn!), but I had withdrawn my forces from the cities and garrisoned several horsemen outside each in order to immediately put down the rebellious Russian citizens. In the subsequent peace negotiations I secured the one hold-out city with borders contiguous to mine, as well as a city on a 2-tile island previously unknown to me. The capture of Moscow also placed the Great Wall under my control – a militaristic wonder which meant I needed only a scientific wonder to generate a golden age for the Germanic peoples. Although pleased with my wartime success, I was disappointed with my bad luck at: (1) not producing another leader; and (2) capturing the weakest wonder of the ancient age – how welcome any of the other wonders would have been! – but Russia had been at war for much of the ancient age and didn’t have the production capabilities to secure a better wonder for Germany’s glory.

I’ve attached a mini-map from shortly after the Second Russo-German War, in 690 AD.

Sometime during the war (I don’t remember exactly), I was able to establish relations with 4 other civilizations located on two different continents to my west. Although Cleopatra of Egypt looked competitive based on the histograph, I was confident that her limited expansion opportunities and my newly acquired territory assured the Germans of a second position among nations, with only Joan D’Arc of France to overtake.

Speaking of Joan, she continued to engage in sporadic warfare with England. In my past experience, Joan has been a trustworthy ally, unlikely to break treaties or to sneak-attack (unlike Liz). [Isn’t is curious how we “come to know” these artificial leaders – I’m not sure it holds true game after game, but Joan has generally been a trustworthy ally to me across many games, while Liz has frequently back-stabbed, abusing RoPs etc.]. Joan had succeeded in settling a large portion of our continent, and had taken even more land by conquering English cities. I did not fear Joan, despite her power, because I felt I “knew” her, and could move to war if necessary at my own timing.

Having discovered Chivalry some time ago, I had not only been building knights, but had upgraded all veteran horsemen (preserving those many elites which had not yet created a leader) in preparation for a war against a severely weakened England. I imagined I could overrun the remaining English territories with my knights, while securing a “friend” in Joan by allying against a common enemy. I moved my knights to my northern frontier, very happy with my decision to secure my south-western border, and anticipating a leader-generating war with Liz.

France, while at war with England, suddenly seemed overly interested in my coastline. And then, when Joan abandoned my mainland coast and dropped a lone pikeman on my island, I first trembled and then rejoiced! Silly Joan is going to sneak attack me!

I’ve attached a screen shot of Joan’s sneak attack in 760 AD.

Gee, Joan, what are you up to?

This is my opportunity to: (1) generate my second (and perhaps third, fourth, etc. leader since so many wonders would be available during the early / middle Middle Ages), (2) inflict some damage on Joan, (3) secure a monopoly on dyes AND secure a chokepoint. England could wait – time to take down the leader. I now imagined that I could take the south-eastern French territories with my knights, finish off England after peace with France, upgrade to cavalry and then march on Paris! This war of opportunity could be the stepping stone for eventual German control of the entire continent!

I had been hoping for / preparing for a perfect opportunity for war. I really needed a couple of leaders: one so I could build an army and start the Heroic Epic, another for either JS Bach’s or Sistine’s (preferably Bach’s with my large continent and a non-religious civ (and therefore expensive cathedrals)) – I felt I needed a happiness wonder, and Joan’s sneak attack could supply it. Just in case I didn’t go to war (for some crazy reason) or didn’t generate a leader, I had just recently started a Palace build, intending to switch to one of the many wonders available in the early middle ages, with a specific focus on JS Bach’s. The opportunity to hit Joan without being an aggressor / breaking a treaty was simply a bonus.

Joan attacked (with her lone pikeman) and razes Kharkov. I go after the former English cities just north of my frontier. I take Liverpool and abandon it immediately – there are 20+ longbowmen in range of the city, against my wounded knights and several wounded elite horseman. I take Dover to my north-east (a loner city surrounded by my borders or sea, so no great victory). I re-group and prepare to take Warwick, the French (formerly English) city that controls the only two dyes outside my national borders as well as an important chokepoint to the north. Joan is rushing reinforcements to her southern border. I am complacently working towards Military Tradition, confident that my “large” army of knights and few remaining elite horseman (I have lost many to the one HP spearmen / occasional longbowmen, somehow – oh well – bad luck) can handle the war – after all, I have only one short border to defend. Twenty turns into my war, while still researching Physics, I decide it is time to end the hostilities without having taken Warwick. A screen shot tells the tale.

I’ve attached a screenshot from of 970 AD.

Fortunately, France is willing to make peace, and even is willing to pay a premium to secure a treaty. The idea of attacking French riflemen with my knights did not appeal. The First Franco-Germanic War ends with territorial gains by Germany (but also the loss of my island outpost), but: (1) without a leader!!! , and (2) without having secured a monopoly on dyes and an important chokepoint. Between the Second Russo-German War and the First Franco-German War, I must have won 30+ battles with elite units without generating a leader (I counted 21 successful battles, but started counting after an estimated 10 or so leaderless battles). Ah well, just more incredibly bad luck. Still, I couldn’t imagine making it all the way to Military Tradition without a victorious army – not with a militaristic civilization!

Bismarck goes back to builder again. France continues to beat up on England. France is involved in wars with all other civs on again and off again – France will be at war from the 600s into the 1400s. It is too late to ally with France and seek to participate in the destruction of Liz’s empire – France is now an enemy and is furious with my Germanic empire. My military has suffered great losses, and an opportunistic war against England seemed a very unwise option – Joan could quickly and easily storm into my territory at the slightest provocation or sense of German weakness, and without my forces at home, defeat was a high probability. Looking back on the game, I think that this decision may have been a strategic mistake. I sure could have used a leader or two – if Liz possessed a luxury near my border, I probably would have gone after it, but absent a compelling objective, I decided to rebuild. Had I attacked, would Joan have come after me while still weakened? I would very much like to know.

Do you remember that palace build I started in anticipation of JS Bach’s (in the unlikely event that I didn’t generate a leader in the First Franco-Germanic War)? Even if I lost out on JS Bach’s, I figured I would be able to use that palace to build Leo’s, or, if things went really bad, Copernicus’, Magellan’s, or Newton’s. I was still building a palace in 1100 AD, all middle age wonders having been built by others. Oh, where were the leaders? My worker bees are spending all their time clearing jungle.

[Catt]

Part 2 of 2

I decide to beeline for Theory of Evolution – that palace build should be useful for something – even though I haven’t researched Replaceable Parts and France has infantry running all over the place just beyond my borders. The Iroquois build Universal Suffrage. Germany is still a Monarchy, with King Bismarck at its head. I am falling farther behind in the tech race, even though I am second largest land mass with libraries and universities in all core cities, and most fringe cities. The discovery of Steam Power confirms that I have sufficient coal to build a rail network. But, in another stroke of bad luck (starting to sound like a “glass half empty” sort of guy ) I count at least three city locations which would enable the Iron Works small wonder – I missed them all, twice by one tile .

I manage to discover Scientific Method before any others – at least I think so, since no one has started building ToE. Because of my long-running palace build, I can build ToE immediately (one turn). However, this will trigger a golden age for Germany, since I already control the Great Wall. I decide to take a big risk and research Democracy (can’t buy it – no one has it!) and convert to a democracy in the hopes that I can use my GA in a democracy to leap permanently ahead of all other civs. I cross my fingers, knowing I can’t get reverse decisions if someone else starts / switches a build to ToE while I’m in anarchy. Once again, I feel if I miscalculate, my game is lost. It seems an all-or-nothing bet, with the risk of ignominious defeat once again at hand. I am informed that anarchy will last 5 turns.

It turns out it is not an all-or-nothing bet. I had figured that, assuming I made it into a democracy before ToE was built by another civ, I could sell Scientific Method to the other leading civs for big money, and then immediately build ToE. On the very same turn that I come out of anarchy to my new German democracy, I am informed that 3 other civs have started to build ToE. I am able to build it in one turn by converting my palace build. I instantly have Atomic Theory and Electronics; and, more importantly, I trigger a German golden age. The all-or-nothing bet turns out to be something less than all-or nothing – I manage to build ToE (survival! ), but can’t trade Scientific Method for skipped over techs like Industrialization, Sanitation, and Espionage (ugh! ).

Even with a golden age, Hoover Dam is a 28-turn build in my highest-shield-producing city. I am uncomfortable trading away Atomic Theory (whereas I would have happily traded Scientific Method just before building ToE). Nonetheless, with the tech jump from ToE combined with the Germanic golden age, I feel, for the first time in the game, like I am in the driver’s seat. Now I finally have a leg up and can win this game. My strategic plan is now to work towards Motorized Transportation (which I calculate will come right about the end of my golden age), possibly mobilize at that time, but in any event start a massive build-up of panzers, and take a significant chunk of French countryside with a German blitzkrieg – I still owe Joan for the sneak attack back in the 700s AD.

I am researching techs in the minimum 4 turns, and putting away 100 – 300 gold per turn to boot. This allows me to (1) buy skipped over techs, and (2) upgrade many of my riflemen to infantry. I am on target to build a sizeable force to punish France, and in the process generate a leader or two for Heroic Epic / Military Tradition and a wonder. I get to within one turn of Motorized Transportation before my GA ends – upon its end, MT is 3 turns away . As soon as I have MT, I start building panzers – I take the time to calculate the effects of a mobilization (i.e., manually count shields in key cities and figure out the effects on a “turns-to-produce” basis). I decide not to mobilize. I also decide that a force of 40 or so panzers is needed. I need to take 2 cities right away, with a sufficient healthy panzer force for the inevitable counter-attack and the blitzkrieg into the French cities just behind the current borders. I will finally take Warwick, establish a monopoly on dyes, and control a key chokepoint! With the tech lead from ToE and my golden age, I also don’t worry about the United Nations – I will start a palace build as a precaution, but I should be able to build it first quite easily and prevent a vote.

In 1665 AD, I have a force of 47 panzers – sufficient for my purposes despite my being very light on artillery and occupying forces (infantry) – I don’t want to slow down the blitz with one-move infantry and artillery. The 5-turn anarchy from Monarchy to Democracy is still fresh in my memory, and I haven’t built any police stations since my purchase of Communism – I am mildly concerned about war weariness and decide that I will declare war if need be, but why not just get caught planting a spy and have Joan declare on me? I’ve had espionage for a few turns, but this will be my first attempt to use it – I pay to plant a spy in Paris . . . . much to my surprise, I succeed. OK, at least I can check on Joan’s force composition before I declare war. Here is what I see:

I’ve attached a screenshot of my military advisor screen in 1665 AD.

Yes, 222 French infantry. I guess Joan was building military forces almost exclusively during her 700+ year series of wars (which I should have fully understood since her cities’ borders never seemed to expand). Finally, my first stroke of good luck – I can call off my invasion or prepare more fully. I definitely expected my spy mission to fail, and hoped that it would elicit a declaration of war from Joan – my panzers would roll through the French countryside at will! In the unlikely event that it didn’t fail, I would at least have some knowledge of the order of battle . . . . never did I imagine 222 infantry! With 222 French infantry, all potentially concentrated on one narrow border through the French rail network, I began to rethink my strategy of “40 panzers is sufficient.” Maybe 100 or so would be better? I began to despair that, if I didn’t attack soon, I would not be able to attack with success – French mechanized infantry, for example, would present a real problem. Four turns later, with almost 70 German panzers warming their engines, I decide it is now or never – I will take the high ground with panzers and infantry and let the French counter-attack throw itself at my superior tactical position. In getting ready to launch my panzers from their holding pen in an interior city, I see this:

I’ve attached a screen shot from 1685 AD.

French mechanized infantry. I, the “tech leader” don’t even have mechanized infantry. OK, now-or-never may just have become never; thank god I didn't mobilize back in the late industrial. I (weakly) decide that discretion and defense are the better parts of valor, and that a spaceship victory makes more sense. Maybe if France becomes involved in an overseas war and ships some forces abroad, I will attack. I am flabbergasted that after ToE and my golden age, France has already caught me / passed me in the tech race!

Soon after the cancellation of the Second Franco-Germanic War, France signs a military alliance with Egypt against Rome ! I anticipate a massive ocean-going “sea lift” of French forces away from the homeland – and the opening I need to hit Joan hard. I watch for 10 turns – France is building more and more mech inf, and upgrading 25 – 30 infantry to mech infantry per turn, but is NOT building any naval forces at all. France has one GALLEON, no transports. I don’t know what Joan got in trade for the alliance against Rome, but she sure didn’t give any help to the Egyptians in the war. Mighty Bismarck, bless his heart, is very worried about Joan’s intentions, and continues to build artillery and mech infantry for his frontier cities. I research techs that apply to a SS victory; nothing outside of that goal.

France does not build a navy. Egypt overruns Rome. The Iroquois start to overrun the Aztecs. I check in on France and they have a 2 tech lead! and hundreds more units then I do – still no French transports. How did I lose the tech lead so quickly? I had at least a two-tech lead at the end of the industrial age, and, as the only scientific civ left in the running (Russia had been playing OCC + 1) I received a free tech as I entered the modern era.

I fear a French invasion, and wonder (1) could I withstand an invasion (going on offense is out of the question); and (2) have I made it this far only to lose a SS victory at the end. I am building SS parts; France is not. France finally starts on its SS, but some turns later also starts on Cure for Cancer and Longevity. My spy tells me that France is behind me in SS parts, but the wonder pop-ups tell me France could probably build other parts at the drop of a hat. I ignore Egypt, figuring its prolonged war has largely prevented it from keeping up in the tech / SS, especially given France’s dominant position. But, a few turns later, Egypt also starts on the Genetics wonders! Despite being a communist state in a prolonged (but successful) war – and much smaller than Germany – Egypt is out-teching me (trading with France, I’m sure, but with what?). I am approximately 400 points behind France on the histograph.

Soon I have 9 SS parts built. The Laser is one turn away. I decide to plant a spy in Thebes, just to have a look at Cleo’s army and her progress (if any) towards a SS launch – I remember from previous games getting wonder pop-ups as civs complete SS parts, but can’t recall whether a spy is necessary to get these pop-ups. I figure that if I’m caught planting the spy in Thebes, no Egyptian forces can reach my capital before I can build and launch. This is what I find (I have combined France’s military report with the “space race” box)

I’ve attached a screen shot from 1820 AD.

Egypt was closer than I ever imagined to a launch. I launch 1 turn later. And dry my brow.

**************

All in all a very entertaining game, with some real oddities (at least for me):
* Barbarians: I think I saw one barbarian – never saw a barbarian camp and found only one village (generated a map).
* I played as Germany, a militaristic civ that begins with Warrior Code, but never built an archer.
* Despite three wars and many, many elite units produced by my militaristic society, I produced one great leader, and used him in 170 BC.
* I played as Germany, and panzers never saw any action, offensive or defensive.
* I secured the tech lead with ToE and an industrial golden age, and somehow managed to lose the tech lead by the early modern age.
* My navy, at its high point, consisted of two transports. My rival’s navy, at its high point, consisted of one galleon, one transport, and one destroyer.
* I didn’t build any hospitals until almost into the modern age – I was so busy building panzers (for my invasion ), and then arty / infantry (for my cowering defensive posture ), that I dared not slow production away from unit production

I clearly didn’t play this game particularly well. I also had a little bit of bad luck. But I wonder if this outcome was the result of the game conditions (it was really hard!), my inexperience at Emperor / Deity, or a combination of both. What do you experienced Emperor / Deity players have to say about this game?

What did I learn? (1) I may be a bit too timid in warfare. I dread the idea of losing territory, and therefore only go on the offensive if I feel pretty confident that I have a strong advantage; (2) Don’t count on leader generation as part of my strategy – simply too risky; (3) Go ahead and build a denser city build – spread empires look nice but the productive power of a denser build may have made all the difference in this game; (4) the AI production bonuses at Emperor (although only 10% more than Monarch) significantly ratchet up the tech race – don’t ever count on keeping the lead without a thoroughly dominating position; and (5) either the religious or industrious trait is necessary to avoid spikes in blood pressure / heart rate during the game .

It is satisfying to win my first game at Emperor, and more satisfying to win a game I consider filled with bad luck and a tough start (and the wrong civ traits for such a start!). At the same time, it is less than satisfying because I knew that I should have lost – a human player would have (1) crushed me with the military advantage France had, or (2) built the SS rather than fooling around with Miniaturization and Genetics.

Saved games at various times available if interested – send me a private message with your email and I will send zip files of games.

Theseus, I am beginning to believe in the “Killer AI” theory of map generation!

Catt

[Arrian]

Catt,

I think you played it very well. And I agree about your luck, except for 1 thing: that forbidden palace in 170 BC is worth several wonders of the world.

I have decided that I made 1 crucial mistake. If I had merely chosen Russia as my 1st target, I may have done much better. Foolishly, I attacked England first... a civ with Iron. Dunno why I did that, other than proximity. I had a fairly large force at my disposal (19 horse, 6 sword, I think), and I should have been able to do a LOT of damage to Russia. Who knows, perhaps I could have gotten a leader too... a Forbidden palace down around the Russian core would have been awesome.

I'd like to go back and replay my initial attack to test out the alternative, but unfortunately I remembered to save the game 1 turn AFTER declaring war on England. Doh.

-Arrian

[jshelr]

Wow
Actually I had more fun reading Catt's account of the game end than I've ever had in my own end games. Having someone outresearch the human civ in the modern era is unusual (do others agree?). Did you take the same research path or start with a quick run for synthetic fibers. I also wonder whether your population was too low from delayed hospitals. Did you have the number one GNP? In my experience, if you build the economy and cut back on units until tanks, you end up with a powerhouse economy even if you are relatively small. Did you get Hoover or build power plants?

[Catt]

Wow - fascinating read of others games (now that I've done). I haven't downloaded any games yet, but may be able to this evening.

Some observations:

To Alkis: I like your tech strategy and am impressed it worked. I have tried this before on Monarch level, but after several failures (i.e., some other Ai gets it first and trades it, and now I have no tech to trade and no gold with which to buy techs) I have largely abandoned it. May have to dust that off and try again. You also seemed to progress more quickly up the tech tree. How did you establish such a dominating tech lead in the late game? Were you the largest / most productive civ by the mid-industrial age?

To Sir Ralph: Fantastic that you were able to take out the English so early. I haven't yet tried your "ultra-early archer rush" but it sounds very powerful indeed if well-executed. I stayed away completely from Republic -- I felt I needed the military police "pacification" of my citizens that Monarchy afforded. Unlike your game (and others' games) I never had any problem with resources -- iron was a bit scarce, but within my sphere of influence, and by the time refining came along, I controlled the formerly Russian tundra. Gotta love those monster stacks -- 196 units!

To nbarclay: Another thorough whipping it would seem! I'm going to guess that you're the only one of us to go after the French so early in the game -- not only did you take out the "killer AI civ" before it became a killer, but (I think) largely secured your dominance in the ancient age. You progressed up the tech tree far faster than me (or the AI) in my game -- I don't think I saw cavalry until the 900s or even 1000's in my game -- you've got them in force in the 800's!

To Arrian: I had a very similar horror to your "pikeman in London" Getting a bunch of knights (and elite horsemen) within striking distance of Warwick, only to see riflemen defending. Ouch! I think "luck" was a big factor in this game. Your decision to go after the English could very well have turned out like nbarclay's decision to go after the French -- had you gone after the Russians would it have been any better? I don't know. I got lucky in that the Ruskies didn't have any access to iron in either war (except for a very brief period of a couple of turns when they built a colony shortly before War II). I agree that Germany was a very, very tough civ in this set-up. And I also agree that a well-placed FP in 170 BC is worth a couple of wonders -- it was a great stroke of luck, but I of course didn't see it that way -- I expected to generate several leaders, and the first one so early just confirmed that the game was unfurling according to plan .

To jshelr: It is also very unusual in my experience to be out-researched in the modern age! Needless to say, I was quite surprised. Here's how it went: Upon completing ToE, I was given Atomic Theory and Electronics -- and my golden age began. I researched R.Parts for a few turns and then bought it. I researched Industrialization in 4 turns, bought Communism, Sanitation, Espionage, and The Corporation. While researching in 4 turns, I was also putting away a lot of gold. I researched Refining in 4 turns, bought Steel (expensive because I think only France had it), researched Combustion and Mass Production in 4 turns each. Nearly completed Motorized Transportation when my golden age ended. I checked around with the other civs, and no one had Mass Production, let alone MT. I scaled back my research spending so I could afford to go back and upgrade all the riflemen / knights that I hadn't already upgraded.

I built Hoover Dam, and also factories in those cities that didn't already have one (probably should have built hospitals instead). Both Flight and Radio took me about 8 turns each IIRC. I was given Rocketry, and researched Fission -- it took 10 or 11 turns! Here is where my problem became apparent (in hindsight). I hadn't built hospitals yet, and I'm sure this crippled my research abilities. After Fission I researched Computers -- again about 10 turns. Shortly afterwards, with a decision to go after a SS victory, I turned a lot of cities to wealth (only about 8 or so cities had hospitals) and maxed out my science spending. Still taking 6 - 10 turns per tech.

On the discovery of Computers, I built a research lab in all my cities with a univ and a bank, and I managed to beat Joan to Seti. My research after Computers went (IIRC): Space Flight, Ecology, Synthetic Fibers, (traded for superconductor or satellites), SuperC or Sats, Nuclear Power, The Laser. The Laser I managed in 5 turns, but only because I freely ran a massive deficit, not worrying about dipping below 1000 gold in the treasury.

From golden age beginning until MT, I built almost exclusively city improvements -- factories, universities, banks, cathedrals, coloseums, etc. -- I hardly built a military unit and figured I would have the dominant economy. On the discovery of MT, all core production went to panzers. In the early modern age, I believe I was trading first and second places with Joan on GNP / productivity measures, depending on which turn I checked, but was definitely number 2 on pop and territory. As I mentioned above, I have been given a good run by the AI civs in the modern age, but never lost a lead so quickly and so decisively late in the game -- a real nail biter.

Catt

[Alkis]

Catt,
You just research a later technology. Mathematics/Currency or literature. Suppose you go after literature and you are currently researching writing. If you meet someone who has it, you buy it and start on literature. But you have to allocate a lot on research. About your second question, I build city improvements very early, marketplaces for instance are crucial. They give you more gold and also more happiness. Also, and this is very important, I always observe the balance of the great powers. There are times where you want an enemy civilization to be strong. In my game for instance the Russians had to stay alive. I went to war against France even without Panzers because otherwise they would grow far too strong and the balance would be broken. By keeping France constantly in a war with someone, I made sure she would be in Communism and not Democracy.

To fight large stacks of rifflemen/infantry you create a temp city, fill it with your own infantry and invite the AI to attack it. I did that in the previous tourney in a war against the Americans. They had a stack of about 60 units of rifflemen/longbowmen. No one of us had infantry yet. I let them attack one of my good cities in that occasion but I put more than 20 rifflemen there. I clicked end of turn and went to the kitchen for a quick sandwich . When I came back two of his rifflemen had pillaged the terrain and he had another 6 units (who had won their battles). So I lost 6 units and the AI about 50.

I saw that you didn't build any navy. I on the other hand, build large navies as soon as Destroyers become available. I usually destroy enemy fleets easily and then go on to bombard the enemy cost. This is probably a habit I got from Imperialism .

About your game, I can't tell you where you went wrong because I don't know the exact position, but I always prefer Rebublic over Monarchy. Ok it depends, but to get technology fast you need Republic or Democracy, big cities and powerfull infrastructure.

Give me your email and I' ll send you my saves (and maybe a virus or two ) I don't want to post them here because the site doesn't allow files larger than 500k

-

[nbarclay]

Originally posted by Catt

To nbarclay: Another thorough whipping it would seem! I'm going to guess that you're the only one of us to go after the French so early in the game -- not only did you take out the "killer AI civ" before it became a killer, but (I think) largely secured your dominance in the ancient age. You progressed up the tech tree far faster than me (or the AI) in my game -- I don't think I saw cavalry until the 900s or even 1000's in my game -- you've got them in force in the 800's!

The reasons I got cavalry so early are (1) I focused exclusively on that part of the tech tree since the Great Library would save me the cost of researching Education if I waited and (2) I got a golden age while researching Metallurgy to help with the cost of researching late-medieval techs without universities and banks. You got to Military Tradition later, but I'll bet you had a whole lot more techs from the top part of the tree by the time you got there. So the difference probably isn't as great as it looks on the surface.

The tech leaders were actually two or three techs into the medieval age by the time I regarded myself as a dominant power (although the Frenchmen who faced my swordsmen might question that ). Fortunately, the French never got an iron supply hooked up to build pikemen. It was getting my great leader and building my Forbidden Palace, coupled with the tech parity I'd gained through the Great Library, that transformed Germany from a second-rate power with lots of essentially useless conquered land into the greatest power in the world. If I'd had the bad luck to take out an entire civ without getting a great leader, the game would have gone very differently.

Nathan

[nbarclay]

Never underestimate the importance of hospitals as a wealth and science improvement! A size 16 city can generate as much as a third more gold than a size twelve city, maybe even more if it gets you using high-wealth, zero-production coastal tiles. And all of that gold except for the cost of the hospital itself is gravy above and beyond the cost of city improvement upkeep and unit maintenance. Also, hospitals generally give inland cities more tiles to work, and thus more shields, so they can easily pay for their cost in shields in such cities. Hospitals: Don't leave the industrial age without them.

Nathan