Apolyton University

Theseus · July 8, 2002, 01:37

I've taken a lot of notes over the last several days about the "Best" concept.

I herewith rename it Apolyton U., and will tease you all as follows.

1. It's critical that we have a standard mod to work with. I'll look to the group to get that done, and add my comments where appropriate. As you all know, I'm focused on human-like, killer AI opponents.

2. The curriculum. Maybe not the greatest metaphor, cause we're learning from and teaching each other, but what the heck.

I've got notes on each of these, and will put them up over the next couple of days, but here are my initial thoughts on the first 'trials':

Exploration
Crowding & Culture
Crowding & War
Science
Naval Power
Golden Age
Isolation
Resource Poor
**(e.g., the Aeson Challenge)
Capitol Capture
Great Wonders

In each, I want us to try to highlight a specific aspect of the game, and share our best moves / concepts for achieving a defined goal.

I'll post my suggestions for trial structure, settings, etc., but I expect that others will comment and help evolve the concepts before we play any of the specific games.

Also, the order listed above is random; we might want to consider an order that makes sense given the development of the mod and also the upcoming patch.

Lastly, participation by a Firaxian would be much welcome, although I don;t know if that's possible.

Must sleep.

/CivIII dreams commence

Marquis de Sodaq · July 8, 2002, 09:48

Are you talking about comparison games, or a collection of discussions? Either way would be informative and interesting...

Arrian · July 8, 2002, 11:34

Quote:

Exploration
Crowding & Culture
Crowding & War
Science
Naval Power
Golden Age
Isolation
Resource Poor
(e.g., the Aeson Challenge)
Capitol Capture
Great Wonders

In each, I want us to try to highlight a specific aspect of the game, and share our best moves / concepts for achieving a defined goal.

emphasis mine

You know my answer to this. The best way to get Great Wonders? Rush 'em with leaders. Second best? Capture. Third, build them. I usually try for 1 and 3. I dislike 2, even though it's easier than 3.

As for the standard mod concept, given that Soren has acknowledged various upgrades to the AI that are coming with PtW and that PtW will include an key new upgrade path (sword -> medieval infantry), we should probably attempt to generate a concensus on concepts we know are NOT going to be addressed by Firaxis (at least in the near future):

0 range bombard (oooh, those nasty little bowmen)
HP bonus per age
Naval movement, a/d stats, tech prereqs.
Science (messing with the caps)

Some random ideas of my own for killer AIs:

-play with the resource settings in the editor (make certain resources really scarce?)
-crank up the aggressiveness of certain powerful "builder" AIs (such as Egypt)

-Arrian

Theseus · July 8, 2002, 19:55

And Arrian's obsession with GLs grow...

You have truly come over to the dark side.

You'll like my plan for the GW trial.

Re the mod: I hope someone picks up the ball on this. I agree with your overall thoughts, although I suspect 0-bombard may create GL generation issues.

Theseus · July 8, 2002, 19:57

Quote:

Originally posted by Marquis de Sodaq
Are you talking about comparison games, or a collection of discussions? Either way would be informative and interesting...

A mix I think, although it will play out howeer the participants want it too.

Some games as competition, some for direct comparison (we've all gotta get good on using screenshots), some for discussion of used / proposed techniques.

Don;t change that dial... I'm gonna post my ideas tonight.

Txurce · July 8, 2002, 20:12

Theseus, you didn't mention the Barbarian Uprising question.

FrustratedPoet · July 8, 2002, 20:17

If Soren's gonna tell us about the Barb in a few days (he said he would

) it seems kinda pointless debating it too much.

Mod Stuff:
I think that +1hp per era would be very useful.
I think almost everyone agrees that a boost to naval movement would be a good thing. Perhaps +1 for Sail units and +2 for Non-Sail?

How about tweaking the Tech Tree to get rid of some of the really useless techs?
Other techs could have their cost adjusted to keep the same time to complete the path, it's just that some of them are meaningless at the moment.
Or would this be too big a change?

Theseus · July 8, 2002, 21:31

OK, without further adieu, a humble attempt at creating 10 "trials" for the group. They're sort of in order, but my feeling is that everything is up for discussion and change. I've tried to put them in an order that acknowledges the upcoming patch. BTW, I think the order is conducive to starting before getting the standard mod done.

Some of the games have specific goals other than winning. Gameplay will obviously involve lots of aspects other than the stated goal, but it'll be interesting to see how people alter their typical play to support the letter and intent of the goal.

Again, the idea is to share and LEARN!!

_______________________________

1. Exploration

Goal: Be the first among us to uncover the entire map. Any predictions on the earliest date?

Settings: Huge, archipelago, 60% water, 16 civs, warm, wet, 5B, raging, Monarch. All win types (although not necessary to play through).

Civ: Rome

Notes: The Great Lighthouse will be key. The settings should produce some big islands that will require land units for exploration. 16 civs means map trading is critical. This is one that doesn;t need to be played all the way to the win.

2. Crowding & Culture

Goal: Give peace a chance!! But no turtling... this is specifically about cultural expansion. How many AI cities can you flip? War only allowed to capture GWs and resources (or in defense). Gold star for a Cultural win!!

Settings: Large, Pangaea, 80% water, 12 civs, normal, temperate, 4B, no barbs, Monarch. Cultural and Spaceship win types.

Civ: Babs

Notes: Haven't seen much on 'poly about cultural steamrolling... let's see what people come up with.

3. Crowding & War

Goal: Psychotic bastards, here's your chance!! At least 1 city must be captured in each aggressive phase (with some crossover allowed): Archer, Horseman, Swordsman, Knight, Cavalry, Tanks, MA... however far you get before the win. Gold star for Warrior too. Must win owning all GWs.

Settings: Standard, continents, 80% water, 8 civs, warm, normal, 3B, raging, Emperor. Conquest-only win.

Civ: Japan

Notes: Not required.

4. Resource Poor

Goal: Much like the iceberg, we need to learn how to deal with adverse conditions.

Settings: Large, continents, 60% water, 9 civs, cold, dry, 3B, Monarch (gotta give a break here). All win types.

Civ: China

Notes: / nods to Aeson. / It's gonna be ugly... gotta go Machiavellian on the AI's ass.

5. The Golden Age

Goals: Maximize your GA... show how your GA leads to the win. Both military and GW triggers allowed (and encouraged). Not quite a gold star, but GAs with the IW in place are to be admired.

Settings: "Standard" across the board. Standard, continents, 70% water, 8 civs, normal, temperate, 4B, roaming, Monarch. All win types.

Civ: Zulu

Notes: This should be interesting, given the many different philosophies. I might even play it twice.

6. Great and Small Wonders

Goal: Build as many as you can, either straight up or with GLs. Captures don't count, although if they're useful, go for it. BIG gold star if you can show you beat an AI civ to a GW by 4 turns or less (@$@$#@^%$%#!).

Settings: Large, continents, 70% water, 10 civs, normal, temperate, 4B, roaming, Monarch. All win types.

Civ: Egypt

Notes: I think this will be the toughest.

7. Science

Goal: A blinding tech lead. Is it possible to hit Modern before any AI gets to Industrial? The comparison will be on the number of techs lead at the win. Gold star for a super-science city. A twist: Must own all science GWs at the win.

Settings: Small, continents, 60% water, 6 civs, wet, temperate, 5B, no barbs, Monarch. All win types.

Civ: Greece

Notes: My guess is that the tortoise beats the hare.

8. Naval Power

Goal: Rule the seas. Must build AND use at least 1 of every naval unit until the win. Must build at least 10 Privateers. Gold star for innovative use of MoWs, subs, blockades & interdiction.

Settings: Standard, archipelago, 70% water, 7 civs, temperate, dry, restless, Emporer. All win types.

Civ: English

Notes: Hmmm, if you rule the seas, what does that mean for intercontinental invasions?

9. Isolated

Goal: You're all alone... what do you do?

Settings: Huge, archipelago, 60% water, 10 civs, normal, temperate, 5B, restless, Emperor. All win types.

Civ: Persia

Notes: A builder's delight, until...

10. Resources and Capitols

Goal: Defined warfare. Must win having captured ALL resources and the capitol of each AI civ. If you want to capture the rest, that's up to you.

Settings: Standard, continents, 60% water, 7 civs, normal, temperate, raging, 5B, Emperor. All win types.

Civ: Germany

Notes: UP (tm) in action. Panzer blitzkriegs. Intercontinental invasions. Much fun.

Catt · July 9, 2002, 01:54

Theseus - I will ruminate a bit more on the initial 10 courses before responding.

But, on the subject of mods at AU (standard or otherwise): I would suggest that no mods be used initially. I don't think we want to muck with the lesson plan by playing with mods -- if the goal is to play against a more challenging AI opponent, then I suggest that mods come into being slowly -- only after any specific mod is proven to the class to push the AI quality measurement a little farther towards the "Killer AI." I experimented with a bunch of mods in the past, and while I found a fair number that the AI used (and used "intelligently"), I can't say that I found one that provided any sort of relative advantage to the AI -- in other words, even if the AI used certain mods as they were intended to be used, the benefits of the mod were as easily exploitable by the human player as by the AI.

And if the mods merely migrate towards 0-range bombard, expanded naval movement, more HPs in advanced eras, etc., we're really not doing much more than superimposing our own concepts of "fair play" or "game balance" on the game designers' concepts. If the mods move towards AI production bonuses below 6, tweaking the "default AI difficulty level," or adding/subtracting bonus units for the AI or human, then we're doing nothing to create the Killer AI, we're just tying a finger or two (as opposed to a whole arm) behind our backs or the AI's back.

So I would throw out for discussion a start without mods, and a general bias against incorporating mods, such bias to be overcome when the mod-maker carries the burden of proof in showing that the specific mod makes the AI a more challenging opponent.

Catt

P.S. - I love the fact that the "Best of the Best" thread was completely thread-jacked by Soren

Bad Soren!

Arrian · July 9, 2002, 09:41

Quote:

3. Crowding & War

Goal: Psychotic bastards, here's your chance!! At least 1 city must be captured in each aggressive phase (with some crossover allowed): Archer, Horseman, Swordsman, Knight, Cavalry, Tanks, MA... however far you get before the win. Gold star for Warrior too. Must win owning all GWs.

Settings: Standard, continents, 80% water, 8 civs, warm, normal, 3B, raging, Emperor. Conquest-only win.

Civ: Japan

. Great and Small Wonders

Goal: Build as many as you can, either straight up or with GLs. Captures don't count, although if they're useful, go for it. BIG gold star if you can show you beat an AI civ to a GW by 4 turns or less (@$@$#@^%$%#!).

Settings: Large, continents, 70% water, 10 civs, normal, temperate, 4B, roaming, Monarch. All win types.

Civ: Egypt

Notes: I think this will be the toughest.

7. Science

Goal: A blinding tech lead. Is it possible to hit Modern before any AI gets to Industrial? The comparison will be on the number of techs lead at the win. Gold star for a super-science city. A twist: Must own all science GWs at the win.

My favorites. The first for obvious reasons (The search for UP continues, woohoo!). The second because I love Wonders and I love Egypt. The last one because I love getting a large tech lead. I seriously doubt I can gain a full age, however, without being a pyschotic warmonger.

The thing is, if 3 is executed properly, it will acheive 6 and 7. The two primary reasons for my conversion to the Dark Side were gaining a tangible tech lead and Wonder hoarding. GLs do the trick for Wonders. Wiping out AI civs breaks up the tech whoring, particularly if you prevent the AI from getting the Great Library.

I think the most difficult will be 9, 4, 10 and 7. 9 in particular.

2 (culture bombing babs) sounds kinda cool, since it's fairly off the beaten path. I would think that one should ignore wonders (except, perhaps, the Colossus), use the bowmen to waste a neighbor, and just build city after city, rushing temples and libraries. You could become a cultural monster.

IMPORTANT QUESTION: cultural linkage on or off for these "trials?" That will make a big difference.

-Arrian

Arrian · July 9, 2002, 09:46

Oh, another thought: count me out for the Huge map settings... and maybe the large ones. So much map, so little time...

-Arrian

Harovan · July 9, 2002, 09:51

All these Challenges sound fun. I will gladly take part in all of them, if I get the time. I just don't understand, do you want to make it like our Minitourneys, with all of us starting with the same savegame, or shall everyone generate his own map, using your settings?

Txurce · July 9, 2002, 11:20

Catt, I agree with your concerns about mods at this time. There is too much about the game we still don't understand to "fix" it with a standard mod.

BY the way, my earlier comment about barbarian uprisings was a purposely understated reference to Soren's hijacking. I thought it was hilarious.

Theseus · July 9, 2002, 11:29

Catt: I am in total agreement. Vel, if you're reading this, and since you kicked off the discussion on mods, can you coral some of the other modders and develop a "stepped" version of the mod?

Arrian: I thought about cultural linking and forgot to include it. I've generally been leaving it off lately, and would suggest the same here. Re: huge and large maps, first off, we can change any of the settings, and second, I tried to consider slower computers and fast games. I tried to either:
1. Set goals that did not require the late game
2. Use max water
3. Use less than available civs

Sir Ralph, I envision the process (and attitudes) being pretty much the same as the recent tourneys / tournaments. Everybody on the same map, compare and contrast experiences. Even on the games where there are defined goals, I hope we keep the competition to a minimum, and just understand what works best. Re: having the time, I sorta expect this set of games, and maybe a few others that people suggest (and, BTW, please feel free to suggest NOT doing one of the above), to take us up to the release of PTW. Also, a number of the "lessons" do not require competing the game, if people can deal with that (I can).

punkbass2000 · July 9, 2002, 12:30

I too would be very interested in participating in these 'classes', if I have the time.

Theseus · July 9, 2002, 20:13

Hey pb2!!

Well, I wanna get started.

Let's talk Exploration.

Any comments on the settings?

Can someone make suggestions for a minimalist mod to start with?

Edit: I know Huge turns people off (myself included), but this is meant to be a "partial" game.

Catt · July 10, 2002, 01:55

Okay. I've done my ruminating. First off, three cheers for Theseus for pushing the concept and doing all the hard work (coming up with ideas, keeping the interest alive, surviving outright thread-jackings from game designers . .

). And three cheers for Vel for stimulating the creation of a "standard mod" -- there must be some mods out there that work to the AI's strengths.

With all the pleasantries aside, my thoughts on the curriculum:

Quote:

Originally posted by Theseus
OK, without further adieu, a humble attempt at creating 10 "trials" for the group. They're sort of in order, but my feeling is that everything is up for discussion and change. I've tried to put them in an order that acknowledges the upcoming patch. BTW, I think the order is conducive to starting before getting the standard mod done.

1. Exploration

Goal: Be the first among us to uncover the entire map. Any predictions on the earliest date?

Settings: Huge, archipelago, 60% water, 16 civs, warm, wet, 5B, raging, Monarch. All win types (although not necessary to play through).

Civ: Rome

Notes: The Great Lighthouse will be key. The settings should produce some big islands that will require land units for exploration. 16 civs means map trading is critical. This is one that doesn;t need to be played all the way to the win.

This is one of the few "courses" that I think is susceptible to a totally artificial game play that is unlikely to be repeated in "normal" gaming. Of course I could be very surprised to learn of many other effective strats, but my initial gameplan would focus on building a secure home island, and an (artificially) powerful civ - lots of dense cities. Beelining to the GL, pumping out galleys and cheap foot units for the galleys and going for broke while trying to turtle. Trading for maps at any cost, and ignoring research after Astronomy (or is it Magnetism?) and its ability to sail the oceans. Then just getting ships out to distant ocean tiles.

Anyone have any other ideas (I don't

) to test our exploration skills?

Quote:

2. Crowding & Culture

Goal: Give peace a chance!! But no turtling... this is specifically about cultural expansion. How many AI cities can you flip? War only allowed to capture GWs and resources (or in defense). Gold star for a Cultural win!!

Settings: Large, Pangaea, 80% water, 12 civs, normal, temperate, 4B, no barbs, Monarch. Cultural and Spaceship win types.

Civ: Babs

Notes: Haven't seen much on 'poly about cultural steamrolling... let's see what people come up with.

Sounds like fun - and a much different style game for most of us. I would even say we take a page from OCC rules - no war at all accept a defensive war (can't get culture from captured wonders anyway).

Quote:

3. Crowding & War

Goal: Psychotic bastards, here's your chance!! At least 1 city must be captured in each aggressive phase (with some crossover allowed): Archer, Horseman, Swordsman, Knight, Cavalry, Tanks, MA... however far you get before the win. Gold star for Warrior too. Must win owning all GWs.

Settings: Standard, continents, 80% water, 8 civs, warm, normal, 3B, raging, Emperor. Conquest-only win.

Civ: Japan

Notes: Not required.

Lots of fun. Note that if it's conquest only, then by default we will have to own all GWs at the end. Maybe leave it at domination and conquest (so we have to deal with not tripping the domination count and the raging barbs at the same time?)

Quote:

4. Resource Poor

Goal: Much like the iceberg, we need to learn how to deal with adverse conditions.

Settings: Large, continents, 60% water, 9 civs, cold, dry, 3B, Monarch (gotta give a break here). All win types.

Civ: China

Notes: / nods to Aeson. / It's gonna be ugly... gotta go Machiavellian on the AI's ass.

Lots of fun. Aeson's start, however, looked far too painful for me (a Monarch, occassional Emperor, player).

Quote:

5. The Golden Age

Goals: Maximize your GA... show how your GA leads to the win. Both military and GW triggers allowed (and encouraged). Not quite a gold star, but GAs with the IW in place are to be admired.

Settings: "Standard" across the board. Standard, continents, 70% water, 8 civs, normal, temperate, 4B, roaming, Monarch. All win types.

Civ: Zulu

Notes: This should be interesting, given the many different philosophies. I might even play it twice.

Also lots of fun. But I think we need to pick a civ with a medieval or even industrial UU, or at least a UU that is an "optional" build. With the Zulu (or the Greeks) we will be forced to build Impis (or Hoplites) early, and a crazy AI bastard near us could declare war, attack and lose to an Impi, and trigger our GA - no chance for us to time the GA (which would seem important in trying to show how we utilized it well towards the win, and to earn our near gold star).

Quote:

6. Great and Small Wonders

Goal: Build as many as you can, either straight up or with GLs. Captures don't count, although if they're useful, go for it. BIG gold star if you can show you beat an AI civ to a GW by 4 turns or less (@$@$#@^%$%#!).

Settings: Large, continents, 70% water, 10 civs, normal, temperate, 4B, roaming, Monarch. All win types.

Civ: Egypt

Notes: I think this will be the toughest.

A challenge.

Quote:

7. Science

Goal: A blinding tech lead. Is it possible to hit Modern before any AI gets to Industrial? The comparison will be on the number of techs lead at the win. Gold star for a super-science city. A twist: Must own all science GWs at the win.

Settings: Small, continents, 60% water, 6 civs, wet, temperate, 5B, no barbs, Monarch. All win types.

Civ: Greece

Notes: My guess is that the tortoise beats the hare.

A real challenge - could be the toughest of them all. And my guess is that the bloodthirsty warmonger beats the toroise!

Quote:

8. Naval Power

Goal: Rule the seas. Must build AND use at least 1 of every naval unit until the win. Must build at least 10 Privateers. Gold star for innovative use of MoWs, subs, blockades & interdiction.

Settings: Standard, archipelago, 70% water, 7 civs, temperate, dry, restless, Emporer. All win types.

Civ: English

Notes: Hmmm, if you rule the seas, what does that mean for intercontinental invasions?

Fun and needed. Everyone should be forced to play the English at least once

Quote:

9. Isolated

Goal: You're all alone... what do you do?

Settings: Huge, archipelago, 60% water, 10 civs, normal, temperate, 5B, restless, Emperor. All win types.

Civ: Persia

Notes: A builder's delight, until...

I'd even make it more of an isolationist world -- a huge or large map but with only 4 or 5 civs -- the goal being to create an isolationist paradise until Magnetism.

Quote:

10. Resources and Capitols

Goal: Defined warfare. Must win having captured ALL resources and the capitol of each AI civ. If you want to capture the rest, that's up to you.

Settings: Standard, continents, 60% water, 7 civs, normal, temperate, raging, 5B, Emperor. All win types.

Civ: Germany

Notes: UP (tm) in action. Panzer blitzkriegs. Intercontinental invasions. Much fun.

All instances of resources? Or just one of each resource? May actually be very difficult to do if one must have absolutely all resources -- we would all get a lesson in colony building and defense in trying to avoid a domination victory.

What do others think?

Theseus - great job in spearheading this.

Catt

MiloMilo · July 10, 2002, 12:24

Wow. Love the concept but, I think I've spoiled myself. I think I've been playing too long on Regent. Maybe it's time to head out into the big bad world of Emperor... (quaking in boots)... Anything to get into Poly U.!

Theseus · July 10, 2002, 16:34

Quote:

Originally posted by Catt
1. Exploration

This is one of the few "courses" that I think is susceptible to a totally artificial game play that is unlikely to be repeated in "normal" gaming. Of course I could be very surprised to learn of many other effective strats, but my initial gameplan would focus on building a secure home island, and an (artificially) powerful civ - lots of dense cities. Beelining to the GL, pumping out galleys and cheap foot units for the galleys and going for broke while trying to turtle. Trading for maps at any cost, and ignoring research after Astronomy (or is it Magnetism?) and its ability to sail the oceans. Then just getting ships out to distant ocean tiles.

Anyone have any other ideas (I don't

) to test our exploration skills?

I know that this might seem artificial, but I don;t think it is. Think about implications for the utility of the Great Library, for Regicide, etc.

Was it the first mini-tourney where finding the other continent was critical?

In terms of game plan, in general I think that's the outline everyone will follow. I suspect some twists and turns depending on the map, and especially in terms of the Lighthouse. I'd guessing on some eye openers (don;t know what yet) from this one.

Again, I don;t plan on finishing this one.

I'd like to get started... anybody have a problem with using the stock bic file, especially with the patch around the corner?

Quote:

2. Crowding & Culture

Sounds like fun - and a much different style game for most of us. I would even say we take a page from OCC rules - no war at all accept a defensive war (can't get culture from captured wonders anyway).

But you can get positive effects, and I don;t think we should bar that.

Quote:

3. Crowding & War

Lots of fun. Note that if it's conquest only, then by default we will have to own all GWs at the end. Maybe leave it at domination and conquest (so we have to deal with not tripping the domination count and the raging barbs at the same time?)

I agree, domination too.

Quote:

4. Resource Poor

Lots of fun. Aeson's start, however, looked far too painful for me (a Monarch, occasional Emperor, player).

I didn't say DESTITUTE! I think the settings will just generate awful terrain. I'd still want a halfway decent start.

Quote:

5. Golden Age

Also lots of fun. But I think we need to pick a civ with a medieval or even industrial UU, or at least a UU that is an "optional" build. With the Zulu (or the Greeks) we will be forced to build Impis (or Hoplites) early, and a crazy AI bastard near us could declare war, attack and lose to an Impi, and trigger our GA - no chance for us to time the GA (which would seem important in trying to show how we utilized it well towards the win, and to earn our near gold star).

I was originally going to suggest Egypt, but I had selected them for #6.

I wanted to use a very early UU, to give people a choice of when to apply the GA. Your comment indicates a presiposition to using in in the Meieval Age, but I'll bet there are some other thoughts.

How about Egypt for this one, and Persia for #6?

Quote:

6. Great and Small Wonders
and 7. Science

A challenge.

A real challenge - could be the toughest of them all. And my guess is that the bloodthirsty warmonger beats the tortoise!

As suggested above, Persia for #6.

Good point on #7. How about we disallow domination and conquest win types?

Quote:

8. Naval Power

Fun and needed. Everyone should be forced to play the English at least once

Depending on the patch, this one could probably use some mods. Move the Ironclad back, etc.

Quote:

9. Isolated

I'd even make it more of an isolationist world -- a huge or large map but with only 4 or 5 civs -- the goal being to create an isolationist paradise until Magnetism.

I'm all for that. It'll also help slower computers, at least till the very end. Maybe this trial chould have 2 "endpoints", the first being when all or almost all land is in some civ's territory, and the second being the actual win.

Due to using Persia in #6, I'd then suggest France for this one.

Quote:

10. Resources and Capitols

All instances of resources? Or just one of each resource? May actually be very difficult to do if one must have absolutely all resources -- we would all get a lesson in colony building and defense in trying to avoid a domination victory.

One of each, and have it "connected." Capturing every single resource and every capitol would probably just be more or less a conquest victory. OTOH, if someone wants to totally go for it, god bless'em, gold star.

Velociryx · July 10, 2002, 16:47

Still readin' and will compile all the mod notes, ideas, and observations for review during my upcoming cross-country drive (nothing like driving at three in the morning, chain smoking, guzzling tea, and readin' mod notes!)

When I get back (3100 miles, three days, eleven states), I will see what sorts of step changes we can make to test this stuff incrementally.

-=Vel=-

Catt · July 10, 2002, 17:02

Quote:

Originally posted by Theseus

I know that this might seem artificial, but I don;t think it is. Think about implications for the utility of the Great Library, for Regicide, etc.

I was actually referring to the Lighthouse with "GL" in this context -- I am willing to play it, of course, but, on further reflection, if the end goal is exposure of the enitre map, it simply won't happen until Magnetism and the ability to travel in ocean -- I suspect then that the real race will be a race to Magnetism.

Quote:

I was originally going to suggest Egypt, but I had selected them for #6.

I wanted to use a very early UU, to give people a choice of when to apply the GA. Your comment indicates a presiposition to using in in the Meieval Age, but I'll bet there are some other thoughts.

How about Egypt for this one, and Persia for #6?

Doesn't have to be Egypt; no predisposition to middle ages GA; and I agree that you need to have an early UU to provide maximum flexibilty on player timing. My objections to the Zulu and the Greeks are that each of them has as their UU the basic defensive unit for the entire ancient age (until Feudalism, or later with the Greeks). In order to avoid an early GA, the player would have to perform a supremely unnatural act: (1) avoid any war (as declaror or declaree) where a defender may actually die; or (2) forgo building the most basic city and troop defender for an entire age. Any of the other ancient age UU civs would seem to avoid this "trap" -- allowing a very early GA for those who want it but also allowing relatively "normal" gameplay until one affirmatively decides to trigger a GA (while it may be painful to avoid usage of a legionary or immortal, at least, if one wanted to have a middle ages GA, one could use other attackers in the ancient age). So, I would be fine with Egypt or any other ancient age UU civ other than Zulu or Greeks.

Quote:

Good point on #7. How about we disallow domination and conquest win types?

And maybe disallow reducing any civ beyond X cities? I'm struggling with this one (perhaps unnecessarily, since I haven't tried to reach the goals before

) because it seems to me the only (or near only) way to achieve a full age's tech lead would be to permanently reduce each civ to one or two cities (a la Arrian's UP game or many of the milked Hall of Fame games).

Arrian · July 10, 2002, 17:06

Quote:

And maybe disallow reducing any civ beyond X cities? I'm struggling with this one (perhaps unnecessarily, since I haven't tried to reach the goals before ) because it seems to me the only (or near only) way to achieve a full age's tech lead would be to permanently reduce each civ to one or two cities (a la Arrian's UP game or many of the milked Hall of Fame games)/

My experience too. Hell, that's why I seek UP! It's about the tech and the wonders. Even WITH UP, a full age tech lead is hard to do. Hell, I'm really happy with Tanks vs. Riflemen... which is less than a full age.

-Arrian

Theseus · July 10, 2002, 18:23

Whaddya you guys think about doing the first one without the mod?

I'm itchin' to go.

albiedamned · July 10, 2002, 19:26

Quote:

Originally posted by Theseus

Depending on the patch, this one could probably use some mods. Move the Ironclad back, etc.

Only if the patch also reduces the volume for the ironclad!

Harovan · July 11, 2002, 08:45

I have another proposal for a nice challenge:

Terrain development

Goal: Be the first civ with tanks. Gold Star for those who are the first civ entering the industrial age.

Settings: Small, continents, 70% water, temperate, dry, young (3 bill years), Emperor, AI civs are America, China, Egypt, France and Persia. They are all industrious and have a big advantage on the rough map settings.

Civ: India (at least they are religious

)

johncmcleod · July 11, 2002, 21:53

Thank you very much for posting this curriculum. It's very helpful and I dfinitely will try every one. That's very kind of you, to work hard for the benefit of people like me. Thanks! Oh, and I think #4 will be fairly easy for me. When I first got the game and saw the climate stuff, I chose wet because I like the rain and cold because I like cold places, and I did this not knowing what affect it had on the game. And it's been kind of a tradition; since then I always do cold and wet. Every single game I've played. These challenges will be the first time I've done something else.

Edited: Oh, forgot to add something. Are the difficulty levels unchangeable? I have a friend that just bought this game and monarch is too hard for him...suggestions?

Theseus · July 12, 2002, 20:03

No problem, John. Unfortunately, can't change the difficulty level once the 4000BC save has been made.

I'm gonna generate the first map for Exploration. I think I'm gonna ratchet it down to Large with 12 civs, in deference to those that can't stand Huge.

nbarclay · July 12, 2002, 20:34

Quote:

Originally posted by FrustratedPoet
Mod Stuff:
I think that +1hp per era would be very useful.
I think almost everyone agrees that a boost to naval movement would be a good thing. Perhaps +1 for Sail units and +2 for Non-Sail?

I don't think ironclads should get a bigger boost than frigates and galleons. Their claim to fame was their armor, not their speed.

Quote:

How about tweaking the Tech Tree to get rid of some of the really useless techs?
Other techs could have their cost adjusted to keep the same time to complete the path, it's just that some of them are meaningless at the moment.
Or would this be too big a change?

Techs with no direct usefulness do serve some purposes:

1) They let you switch research back and forth more easily - research the useless tech, then switch to something else, and then switch back. If the cost were all combined into a single tech, you couldn't switch in the middle.

2) They make it harder for rich civs to pull way ahead because there are two four-turn lower limits instead of just one.

3) They can provide a common prerequisite cost for two techs that branch off from them.

4) They provide smaller, more "bite-sized" chunks for tech trading purposes.

I'll admit that it's little annoying researching something and not being able to do anything new as a result, but I think the mechanism works pretty well as is.

DISCLAIMER: I don't know how high the chances are that I'll get into playing with a modded game, so you folks can feel free to ignore me if you want to.

Nathan

W4r_Machine · July 12, 2002, 20:46

Geez, I never thought of reading this much! Count me in.

I have no idea what is going on but if I could get my hands on the save game then I'll play it.

P.S. If it's modded then I'm out.

Great Job Theseus

nbarclay · July 12, 2002, 21:12

In the science game, I think there should be a rule that intercontinental attacks are strictly off limits. That way, success would have to come from strong research by the player rather than from using war to cripple all of one's rivals. After all, the goal is to test and/or build up our skills in doing research, right?

In regard to the "resource poor" game, the dry, cold, and three billion parts look suspiciously like the July tournament game, although the July tourney's starting position is too favorable for those with an Aesonesque frame of mind.

Nathan