View Poll Results: At what level are you going to play?
Deity 1 4.76%
Emperor 12 57.14%
Monarch 5 23.81%
Regent 3 14.29%
Warlord 0 0%
Chieftain 0 0%
Not this time 0 0%
Voters: 21. You may not vote on this poll

 
 
Thread Tools
Old February 27, 2003, 13:20   #1
alexman
PtWDG Gathering StormCivilization IV CreatorsInterSite Democracy Game: Apolyton TeamApolyton UniversityIron CiversCivilization IV: MultiplayerApolytoners Hall of FameCivilization IV PBEMApolyCon 06 Participants
Firaxis Games Software Engineer
 
alexman's Avatar
 
Local Time: 10:00
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Mar 1998
Posts: 5,360
AU 206: Gallic Glory
Your name is Resourceful Ralph, and you have been chosen to lead the Celts to Glory. (If you succeed, you will be knighted, and will thus be named Sir Ralph). You vow to show the world how to run an efficient militaristic empire. Your power lies within your people, and your people lie within your cities. So you shall place your cities wisely and prosper! But if you think that this Apolyton University class is all about peaceful building, guess again. Land is at a premium, and you will have to find a way to take some of it away from your neighbors. Will you use your powerful, yet expensive, Gallic Swordsmen effectively, or will you resort to Archers and Horsemen to defeat your enemies?

As usual, there are three versions of this scenario. AU mod 1.16, PTW 1.14f, and Civ3 1.29f. To avoid being exposed to spoiler information, make sure you cover the mini-map as you load the scenario in PTW.

Tell your stories, explain your city placement, and demonstrate the usefulness or uselessness of the Gallic Swordsman in the spoiler thread.

May Teutates, the Celtic God of Tribe and War, be with you!
Attached Files:
File Type: zip au 206.zip (86.8 KB, 102 views)

Last edited by alexman; February 27, 2003 at 16:53.
alexman is offline  
Old February 27, 2003, 14:35   #2
Jawa Jocky
Prince
 
Jawa Jocky's Avatar
 
Local Time: 06:00
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Seattle
Posts: 555
Emperor with the AU mod
Jawa Jocky is offline  
Old February 27, 2003, 14:36   #3
nbarclay
PtWDG Gathering StormInterSite Democracy Game: Apolyton TeamApolyton UniversityC4DG Gathering Storm
Emperor
 
nbarclay's Avatar
 
Local Time: 08:00
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Dec 1999
Location: Huntsville, Alabama
Posts: 6,676
In case anyone missed it, I'm reposting something I wrote yesterday on the strengths of the Gallic Swordsman in another thread. Read between the lines and you should get some ideas regarding how to take advantage of the unit.

---

I've just been thinking, and there may be some reasons to leave the GS as he is in the stock game after all. (When I debate, I always have part of my mind thinking about how the other side ought to be arguing, and sometimes I'm better at convincing myself than my opponents are at convincing me. ) When comparing the GS and the MW, consider the following:

1) The Iroqouis traits do not mesh well to improve the potency of their UU. They don't get the cheap barracks of a militaristic civ, nor do they have the improved overall productivity of an industrious civ. Further, while MWs are certainly potent in battle, the lack of the Militaristic trait limits the Iroquois' ability to parley that advantage into lots of elites and, eventually, leaders. It is this lack of synergy that prevents the Iroquois from being the hands-down favorite as a warmongering civ. In contrast, the Celts' militaristic nature gives them cheap barracks, quicker promotions, and indirectly a much better chance of great leaders. Cost for cost and stat for stat, the same offensive UU is worth much more in Celtic hands than in Iroquois hands.

2) The prebuild for the MW is less practical. It comes later. It's more expensive in shields (which is especially problematical for a civ without cheap barracks). And worst of all, the prebuild requires the same resource as the main unit, so you can never use a prebuild after you research or acquire Horseback Riding.

3) MWs are vulnerable while getting ready to attack. Even a warrior has a reasonable chance to beat one on open terrain. Enemy horsemen can pick off MWs with ease. And archers or especially swordsmen can usually either kill them or drive them off. Worse, the elite MWs are the first to be hit in such strikes, undercutting the opportunity for leaders (since odds of a defensive victory are so small). The fact that Gallic Swordsmen provide both mobile defense and mobile offense is worth more than the stats alone might imply.

In summary, the Gallic Swordsman, especially when coupled with the Militaristic trait, provides a whole that is greater than the sum of its parts.

Now, comparing Gallic Swordsmen to conventional swordsmen:

1) Gallic Swordsmen cost 5/3 as much, but they probably have at least close to a 40% chance of surviving losing a battle. (Keep in mind that units fighting a 1-HP enemy never retreat, which reduces the retreat chance a bit from its nominal value.) So as long as you have enough of them to do the job, even at a cost of 50, the cost of replacing lost units isn't necessarily higher for Gallic Swordsmen than for their conventional counterparts.

2) When an elite swordsman loses a battle, he dies. That tends to limit opportunities for leaders even for militaristic civs. In contrast, a losing Gallic Swordsman is likely to retreat, so any given elite GS is likely to have about twice as many chances to generate a leader before he dies. Since the number of elite units generated is limited by the number of battles fought rather than by the total number of units produced, that makes the Gallic Swordsman exceptionally potent as a leader factory - especially when coupled with the Celts' militaristic trait. And the fact that elites survive better also gives a little extra combat value that isn't reflected in the stats.

So the question is, is the Gallic Swordsman in the stock game a bad UU, or just a horribly underrated one?

Nathan
nbarclay is offline  
Old February 27, 2003, 14:38   #4
Jawa Jocky
Prince
 
Jawa Jocky's Avatar
 
Local Time: 06:00
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Seattle
Posts: 555
Almost forgot. I noticed a lot of posts regarding UU changes for the GS in the AU mod. What are the finalized traits we are dealing with?
Jawa Jocky is offline  
Old February 27, 2003, 14:48   #5
nbarclay
PtWDG Gathering StormInterSite Democracy Game: Apolyton TeamApolyton UniversityC4DG Gathering Storm
Emperor
 
nbarclay's Avatar
 
Local Time: 08:00
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Dec 1999
Location: Huntsville, Alabama
Posts: 6,676
We're going with the standard version this game to see whether it really needs changed or whether it's good enough already.
nbarclay is offline  
Old February 27, 2003, 14:58   #6
badams52
King
 
badams52's Avatar
 
Local Time: 06:00
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: May 2002
Location: near the magic kingdom
Posts: 1,001
Hmmm, since 1.29f is without the Celts, did you make any modifications?
__________________
badams
badams52 is offline  
Old February 27, 2003, 14:59   #7
badams52
King
 
badams52's Avatar
 
Local Time: 06:00
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: May 2002
Location: near the magic kingdom
Posts: 1,001
Monarch...though I could probably beat emperor if I wanted a challenge
__________________
badams
badams52 is offline  
Old February 27, 2003, 15:06   #8
badams52
King
 
badams52's Avatar
 
Local Time: 06:00
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: May 2002
Location: near the magic kingdom
Posts: 1,001
I can build archers but not warriors? Is it supposed to be like that in 1.29f
__________________
badams
badams52 is offline  
Old February 27, 2003, 15:25   #9
Dominae
BtS Tri-LeaguePtWDG Gathering StormC4DG Gathering StormApolytoners Hall of Fame
Emperor
 
Dominae's Avatar
 
Local Time: 10:00
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Jan 2002
Posts: 7,017
I'm not sure about the problems you're having badams52, but I'm interested in seeing how alexman managed to get the Celts into stock Civ3...



Edit: If alexman went through all the work to create a new civ in the editor, including Brennus' picture, I'm impressed.


Dominae
__________________
And her eyes have all the seeming of a demon's that is dreaming...
Dominae is offline  
Old February 27, 2003, 15:27   #10
badams52
King
 
badams52's Avatar
 
Local Time: 06:00
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: May 2002
Location: near the magic kingdom
Posts: 1,001
He made the Aztecs the "Celts" and I guess he changed a unit to make GSs but I find it harder to REX with archers and not warriors.
__________________
badams
badams52 is offline  
Old February 27, 2003, 15:30   #11
Dominae
BtS Tri-LeaguePtWDG Gathering StormC4DG Gathering StormApolytoners Hall of Fame
Emperor
 
Dominae's Avatar
 
Local Time: 10:00
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Jan 2002
Posts: 7,017
No Warriors!? Bummer...Glad I got my copy of PTW!

(Not trying to give you a rough time, alexman, honestly!)
__________________
And her eyes have all the seeming of a demon's that is dreaming...
Dominae is offline  
Old February 27, 2003, 16:21   #12
Nor Me
Apolyton University
Prince
 
Local Time: 14:00
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Oct 2002
Posts: 689
Emperor, AU MOD, PTW1.14 etc.
badams52: restart. Without the upgrade, you're missing part of the point of the game. It's so easy to edit the scenario without seeing the map that I won't explain it:
Attached Files:
File Type: zip au2061.29.zip (30.1 KB, 2 views)
Nor Me is offline  
Old February 27, 2003, 16:50   #13
alexman
PtWDG Gathering StormCivilization IV CreatorsInterSite Democracy Game: Apolyton TeamApolyton UniversityIron CiversCivilization IV: MultiplayerApolytoners Hall of FameCivilization IV PBEMApolyCon 06 Participants
Firaxis Games Software Engineer
 
alexman's Avatar
 
Local Time: 10:00
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Mar 1998
Posts: 5,360
Thanks Nor Me.
I updated the initial post with a fixed version for 1.29f.

Sorry about that guys.
alexman is offline  
Old February 27, 2003, 17:09   #14
badams52
King
 
badams52's Avatar
 
Local Time: 06:00
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: May 2002
Location: near the magic kingdom
Posts: 1,001
Thanks Nor Me.

Had I known how to edit w/out looking at (at least part) of the map, I would have done so. I did try for a while without warriors, and I'll put a little write up in the spoiler thread about why the defeat was so quick it later.
__________________
badams
badams52 is offline  
Old February 27, 2003, 17:10   #15
badams52
King
 
badams52's Avatar
 
Local Time: 06:00
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: May 2002
Location: near the magic kingdom
Posts: 1,001
Alexman, don't worry about it. I enjoyed having no warriors
__________________
badams
badams52 is offline  
Old February 27, 2003, 17:50   #16
Fosse
Alpha Centauri PBEMCivilization IV: MultiplayerC4WDG Stratega
King
 
Local Time: 08:00
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: U.S.A.
Posts: 1,668
Great... I'll be able to start very soon.
Fosse is offline  
Old February 27, 2003, 17:57   #17
BigDork
Prince
 
BigDork's Avatar
 
Local Time: 14:00
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: The biggest dork around.
Posts: 375
Hi everybody...

Another AU already?

I don't know if I'm gonna have a lot of time for this one but I'm gonna give it a go. We're working 12 hour shifts now so my CivIII time has been cut back some. Oh well, I'll try to finish it before the next AU comes along.

I'll be playing this on Regent. After the last AU(my first try on regent) where I barely won with 9 turns go I think it's worth another go and see if I can improve. I'm really looking forward to this.

BigD
__________________
Holy Cow!!! BigDork's Back!

BigDork's Poll of the Day over at MZO. What Spam Will It Be Today?
BigDork is offline  
Old February 27, 2003, 18:54   #18
Harovan
staff
PtWDG Gathering StormPtWDG2 Monty PythonC4DG Gathering Storm
Civ4: Colonization Content Editor
 
Local Time: 15:00
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Dec 2001
Posts: 11,117
A contest who's the best Ralph, huh? We have a weekend ahead, may be I find the time to play a couple of turns aside of my RL, PBEM and Demogame duties. I can't allow this trophy to go to somebody else!
Harovan is offline  
Old February 27, 2003, 19:46   #19
Konquest02
InterSite Democracy Game: Apolyton TeamPtWDG Vox ControliApolyton University
Prince
 
Konquest02's Avatar
 
Local Time: 09:00
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: The Physics Guy
Posts: 977
I wanna be Ralph!!!

(At least, I'll do my best!)

I'll play on Monarch. We have our spring break coming up next week so I should be able to get through it during that time....although I need to finish AU 204, in which i am slowly buildding my spaceship after two inconclusive UN votes...

--Kon--
Konquest02 is offline  
Old February 28, 2003, 07:11   #20
Artifex
Prince
 
Local Time: 14:00
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Kentucky USA
Posts: 388
One thing I have noticed about the gallic swordsmen and ancient units in general is that they are rendered much less useful on high levels like emperor. I play emperor and this units window of oppurtunity is miniscule before the AI reaches feudalism and fortifies its cities with tons of pikemen.

On high levels the AI will reach feaudalism lightning quick. Once feudalism is reached any AI with any sort of decent power or land will render this unit useless, pretty much.

The point is the window to use the GS on emperor level for me at least is always so small I am lucky to conquer one little civ and secure maybe 1/3rd of the continent with it (standard map large landmass).

Then I am basically looking at a couple of real powerful neighbors and I have a useless army I might as well disband. Sorry but Swordsmen going up against 2-3 fortified pikemen in cities get slaughtered. By the time oen civ gets feaudalism (usually frighteningly quick) then trades it to every other civ the same turn..your army goes from being powerful to a joke.

So this unit would be powerful on lower levels when your oponents don't gain techs lightning quick and reach feudalism in no time at all.

On emperor it is weak, by the time you get a good force of them (they aren't cheap) and are ready to go on a spree..opps the ai gets feaudalism. Game over.

Never forget how quickly the AI gains and trades techs on emperor....they get feudalism very fast.

Last edited by Artifex; February 28, 2003 at 07:18.
Artifex is offline  
Old February 28, 2003, 08:03   #21
Chemical Ollie
King
 
Chemical Ollie's Avatar
 
Local Time: 16:00
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Hooked on a feeling
Posts: 1,780
Wow! Did you actually think of us poor Vikings, who still can't play PTW because Infogrames forgot to ship it to the most computer-dense part of Europe? And actually bothered to modify the tribe in 1.29 to emulate the PTW version? I suppose the 1.29 swordsman is modified to emulate the properties of the Gallic Swordsman?

If that is so, I'm grateful, impressed, and really look forward to enter this game as soon as my kids are sleeping tonight!



__________________
So get your Naomi Klein books and move it or I'll seriously bash your faces in - Supercitizen to stupid students
Lord know, I've made some judgement errors as a mod here. The fact that most of you are still allowed to post here is proof of that. - Rah
Chemical Ollie is offline  
Old February 28, 2003, 08:11   #22
aaglo
King
 
aaglo's Avatar
 
Local Time: 17:00
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: the contradiction is filled with holes...
Posts: 1,398
Modded Aztecs... Yeah! Much better than the original

Okay, the next announced shipping date of PTW here is the 7th of March... we'll see about that
__________________
I'm not a complete idiot: some parts are still missing.
aaglo is offline  
Old February 28, 2003, 13:17   #23
nbarclay
PtWDG Gathering StormInterSite Democracy Game: Apolyton TeamApolyton UniversityC4DG Gathering Storm
Emperor
 
nbarclay's Avatar
 
Local Time: 08:00
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Dec 1999
Location: Huntsville, Alabama
Posts: 6,676
The window of opportunity for ancient UUs if you want to avoid a despotic GA can be small, but it isn't always. One thing that helps is if you don't push the tech pace hard yourself, because if you try to keep up (and maybe even get ahead) in the tech race doing a lot of research and trading, you get the AIs to Feudalism that much faster. Also, sometimes you get lucky and an AI doesn't get iron hooked up in a timely manner.

Nathan
nbarclay is offline  
Old March 1, 2003, 13:51   #24
badams52
King
 
badams52's Avatar
 
Local Time: 06:00
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: May 2002
Location: near the magic kingdom
Posts: 1,001
Quote:
Originally posted by Olaf Hårfagre
Wow! Did you actually think of us poor Vikings, who still can't play PTW because Infogrames forgot to ship it to the most computer-dense part of Europe? And actually bothered to modify the tribe in 1.29 to emulate the PTW version? I suppose the 1.29 swordsman is modified to emulate the properties of the Gallic Swordsman?

If that is so, I'm grateful, impressed, and really look forward to enter this game as soon as my kids are sleeping tonight!
The CFC site's GOTM actually created a modified version of 1.29f to emulate PTW like add an Internet wonder, stock exchanges, etc. But they always work with .sav instead of .bic or .bix which forces me to use their level setting and their map size, which changes from game to game (and I hate large/huge maps). So though I think it's interesting to have a "PTW" style 1.29f without the AI mods, I don't end up playing the games.

At the same time, I am overjoyed that Alexman would think of us poor PTW deprived individuals.

__________________
badams
badams52 is offline  
Old March 1, 2003, 19:01   #25
Chemical Ollie
King
 
Chemical Ollie's Avatar
 
Local Time: 16:00
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Hooked on a feeling
Posts: 1,780
Quote:
Originally posted by badams52


The CFC site's GOTM actually created a modified version of 1.29f to emulate PTW

...

I am overjoyed that Alexman would think of us poor PTW deprived individuals.

After playing the game, I discovered thay my expectations were fulfilled and I could learn about the overwhelming power of the faboulus Gallic Swordsman without yet owning a copy of PTW.

However, I discovered the hard way that the 1.29 BIC was played by standard rules rather than AU rules. I built plenty of archers as city defenders, only to discover that they had no auto-bombard capability against attackers.
__________________
So get your Naomi Klein books and move it or I'll seriously bash your faces in - Supercitizen to stupid students
Lord know, I've made some judgement errors as a mod here. The fact that most of you are still allowed to post here is proof of that. - Rah
Chemical Ollie is offline  
Old March 1, 2003, 22:23   #26
badams52
King
 
badams52's Avatar
 
Local Time: 06:00
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: May 2002
Location: near the magic kingdom
Posts: 1,001
Maybe next time, we could incorporate the last AU for vanilla civ. What was it AU 1.06? I forget.
__________________
badams
badams52 is offline  
Old March 1, 2003, 23:23   #27
Chemical Ollie
King
 
Chemical Ollie's Avatar
 
Local Time: 16:00
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Hooked on a feeling
Posts: 1,780
Quote:
Originally posted by badams52
Maybe next time, we could incorporate the last AU for vanilla civ. What was it AU 1.06? I forget.
Yes 1.06
__________________
So get your Naomi Klein books and move it or I'll seriously bash your faces in - Supercitizen to stupid students
Lord know, I've made some judgement errors as a mod here. The fact that most of you are still allowed to post here is proof of that. - Rah
Chemical Ollie is offline  
Old March 1, 2003, 23:32   #28
Dominae
BtS Tri-LeaguePtWDG Gathering StormC4DG Gathering StormApolytoners Hall of Fame
Emperor
 
Dominae's Avatar
 
Local Time: 10:00
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Jan 2002
Posts: 7,017
Let me just say (again) that the fact that some players here do not have PTW means that we can never create a scenario with the new civs as opponents. That's annoying! Get the expansion!

...please?


Dominae
__________________
And her eyes have all the seeming of a demon's that is dreaming...
Dominae is offline  
Old March 1, 2003, 23:39   #29
badams52
King
 
badams52's Avatar
 
Local Time: 06:00
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: May 2002
Location: near the magic kingdom
Posts: 1,001
Quote:
Originally posted by Dominae
Let me just say (again) that the fact that some players here do not have PTW means that we can never create a scenario with the new civs as opponents. That's annoying! Get the expansion!
Nah, you can create it, just means that some won't be able to participate. Or you could just substitute a similar civ for the 1.29f version. I wouldn't mind
__________________
badams
badams52 is offline  
Old March 2, 2003, 05:56   #30
Chemical Ollie
King
 
Chemical Ollie's Avatar
 
Local Time: 16:00
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Hooked on a feeling
Posts: 1,780
Quote:
Originally posted by Dominae
Let me just say (again) that the fact that some players here do not have PTW means that we can never create a scenario with the new civs as opponents. That's annoying! Get the expansion!

...please?


Dominae
I'm still waiting for Infogrames to ship it to the Nordic countries (the most computer dense area in Europe).
__________________
So get your Naomi Klein books and move it or I'll seriously bash your faces in - Supercitizen to stupid students
Lord know, I've made some judgement errors as a mod here. The fact that most of you are still allowed to post here is proof of that. - Rah
Chemical Ollie is offline  
 

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 10:00.


Design by Vjacheslav Trushkin, color scheme by ColorizeIt!.
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.2
Copyright ©2000 - 2010, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Apolyton Civilization Site | Copyright © The Apolyton Team