Map Request - Page 5

klesh · August 28, 2001, 20:44

The Germans get caught up trying to breach the southern defenses of the city...

klesh · August 28, 2001, 20:45

The fighting is fierce as the Germans try to make their last push on the factories in the north...

klesh · August 28, 2001, 20:53

Snipers with their prey in the industrial section of the city...

klesh · August 28, 2001, 20:54

The ill-equipped Axis' allies are caught off guard by 'Operation Uranus'...

Scott F · August 28, 2001, 22:51

*drools uncontrollably*

As for special units, I think that it would depend on how many free slots you have. You might be able to have a different unit for roughly each division in Sixth Army, concentrating on the more noteworthy and more battle-hardened divisions.

Aside from snipers, you might consider adding a number of Soviet leaders. Chuikov and Krushchev come to mind. If the are both lost, then the Russians would have morale problems or something. Paulus and Hoth might also merit their own units.

As an idea, once the city is encircled, the Luftwaffe would have to resupply it by air. You might be able to represent this like Nemo forces unit resupply in Second Front. Until the city is encircled, the units would be trucks that had to be rolled in from the south and west. When the city is encircled, another set of files can be loaded (by event order), and the city were the resupply convoys were created will be surrounded by water, suitably disguised. As a result, all of the convoy must be airlifted in (going to need to block off multiple cities in the corner for that). The airlifts will be vulnerable to Soviet aircraft and perhaps aircraft units from some sort of "weather" civilization that is allied to the Russians (ie: an aircraft called extreme cold... "Extreme cold has resulted in the downing of one of Reichsmarshall Goering's promised resupply flights."

Also, I really like Darth's suggestion about nuclear weapons as artillery. It would be rather complicated though, particularly in getting rid of global warming. (BTW, does anyone know how to get rid of global warming from stuff like that?)

You could also give every Russian city a nuclear power plant (with the Russians given the technology to build them for a total price of like ten shields) and give the Russians the fusion power technology (suitably renamed) so that they won't have meltdowns. When the Germans (lacking fusion power) capture the city, they will inevitably capture some of the nuclear power plants (renamed to something like "Russian Infiltration). As long as factories cannot be built, there will be no production bonus from the nuclear power plant. When the plants have meltdowns, a text would appear "Herr General, Russian infiltrators have decimated our forces near X location."

Jimmywax · August 28, 2001, 22:54

My god that's a lot of freakin units!!!

It does look original though. Can't wait to play it.

klesh · August 29, 2001, 07:46

Quote:

*drools uncontrollably*

Quote:

As for special units, I think that it would depend on how many free slots you have. You might be able to have a different unit for roughly each division in Sixth Army, concentrating on the more noteworthy and more battle-hardened divisions.

As for now, the repeatitive Wermarch graphics are representing different units and their respective weapons...: Landser Kar'98 and Landser Mp-40 etc... If they have a helmet on or are crouching, you can assume they are better on defense. If a guy has a machinepistol you can assume he is better than a guy with a bolt action rifle on offense.

Quote:

Aside from snipers, you might consider adding a number of Soviet leaders. Paulus and Hoth might also merit their own units.

Yes, Chuikov is present as are both Paulus and Hoth...though some have special purposes and are not for play.

Quote:

As an idea, once the city is encircled, the Luftwaffe would have to resupply it by air. You might be able to represent this like Nemo forces unit resupply in Second Front. Until the city is encircled, the units would be trucks that had to be rolled in from the south and west. When the city is encircled, another set of files can be loaded (by event order), and the city were the resupply convoys were created will be surrounded by water, suitably disguised. As a result, all of the convoy must be airlifted in (going to need to block off multiple cities in the corner for that). The airlifts will be vulnerable to Soviet aircraft and perhaps aircraft units from some sort of "weather" civilization that is allied to the Russians (ie: an aircraft called extreme cold... "Extreme cold has resulted in the downing of one of Reichsmarshall Goering's promised resupply flights."

Geez ScottF! Have you been peaking!!!!

Quote:

Also, I really like Darth's suggestion about nuclear weapons as artillery. It would be rather complicated though, particularly in getting rid of global warming. (BTW, does anyone know how to get rid of global warming from stuff like that?)

You could also give every Russian city a nuclear power plant (with the Russians given the technology to build them for a total price of like ten shields) and give the Russians the fusion power technology (suitably renamed) so that they won't have meltdowns. When the Germans (lacking fusion power) capture the city, they will inevitably capture some of the nuclear power plants (renamed to something like "Russian Infiltration). As long as factories cannot be built, there will be no production bonus from the nuclear power plant. When the plants have meltdowns, a text would appear "Herr General, Russian infiltrators have decimated our forces near X location."

Now this idea is excellent, but I don't know. It sounds chaotic. I have manually placed some rubble about the city and I think a few changeterrain commands might be just as sucessful here.

-FMK.

JMarks · August 29, 2001, 10:35

Klesh,

Cool game! Love the graphics, but not overly happy with the roads. I won't complain too much, lest you ask me to make new ones! Anyway, they look too, something. Did they actually paint thier roads? What would the conditions be? Could they come up to the buildings a bit more? Its not a biggy, but if you have the time, might want to go over that.

Oh, I still don't know if I'll get that hill done. I'll try working on it tonight. Consult with you later.

Ioannes

klesh · August 29, 2001, 10:46

Yes, I'll agree JMarks that the highway/paved road graphic isn't the best. It is too boxy for me. But it was all I could find on the 'net... It is from WarVoid's NECW scenario. I wish they were more round, and were indeed closer to the buildings...but hey...I can't get everything right? I dunno, its not something that will hold the scen back. I may remove the lines though...that sounds like a good idea. There is also a dirt road that is just the regular CivII road.

Yeah man, I'll keep a look out for your communications...

-FMK.

Grothgar · August 29, 2001, 10:59

Hey Klesh how about these road graphics?

klesh · August 29, 2001, 11:45

Here is a side by side comparison of those 2 road sets...
The one currently in use is on the top. The new one looks thinner, and therefore may be even farther from the cities. I think I may try to make the corners more round on whichever version i use. Removal of the lines is nice too. See what you think:

-FMK.

JMarks · August 29, 2001, 17:17

Ok, here is my attempt at 'the Hill'. Feel free to change what you like.

Ioannes

Scott F · August 29, 2001, 17:21

Why don't you replace hills or mountains with roads, so that the roads cannot be pillaged or destroyed by soldiers?

klesh · August 29, 2001, 17:33

JMarks.... I haven't loaded that in yet, but man...That looks excellent!!! You even got the little barbed wire and bunker etc!
Honestly, that is exactly what I envisioned when I thought of the graphic. Thank you so very very much!

-FMK.

klesh · August 29, 2001, 17:41

Quote:

Originally posted by Scott F

Why don't you replace hills or mountains with roads, so that the roads cannot be pillaged or destroyed by soldiers?

Actually I used those slots for the barbed wire terrain, and the other for all kinds of different buildings units... the terrain is very complex.

The roads are good because the soviets actually make their own effort to hinder your advancement, they don't need to be forced to do so through events. I kinda like it.

-FMK.

Case · August 29, 2001, 19:29

*joins drooling masses*

FMK, I see that you're using Nemo's T-34/85 graphic. I don't know what you're using it for exactly, but I don't think that T-34/85's were advailable in large numbers untill lthe second half of 1943, and the didn't become common untill 1944.

klesh · August 29, 2001, 21:13

You are correct Case. There are both the T-34/76mm and the T-34/85mm in the scenario. The /76 makes appearences at the start, but the /85 is only available for the Soviets later in the scen. My fav. site for Russian armor is down so I'll have to get back to you on your point. But it is a good one. Thouigh I have seen many pictures of T-34's at Stalingrad (and they even have a few there today), I think I may exchange the /85 for the /76 and then add in a lighter tanks such as the T28 in the /76's place. Thank you for pointing this out though. I will have to do some checking up on it...

-FMK.

klesh · August 29, 2001, 21:37

http://www.skalman.nu/soviet/ww2-equipment-tank-t34.htm

BAM!!!

I just checked a different site and sure enough... the T-34/85 wasn't built untill August '43!!!

I will absolutely have to make these changes then Case. Thank you so very much for keeping a sharp eye out! That certainly would've been a glaring historical innacuracy had it gone untouched. It makes a big difference for me. Thank you.

So long /85mm... Hellooooooo T-28!
*Yeah! from the Germans...*
*Hisss from the Soviets... *

-FMK.

Scott F · August 30, 2001, 00:36

Quote:

Originally posted by Field Marshal Klesh As for now, the repeatitive Wermarch graphics are representing different units and their respective weapons...: Landser Kar'98 and Landser Mp-40 etc... If they have a helmet on or are crouching, you can assume they are better on defense. If a guy has a machinepistol you can assume he is better than a guy with a bolt action rifle on offense.

Are you sure there were so many SS forces in Stalingrad? I wasn't aware that there were that many. There were political officers and all of that, but I don't think that there were Waffen SS units in the area. I thought that those didn't appear until much later in the war.

Quote:

Geez ScottF! Have you been peaking!!!!

Sadly, no, I have not been peaking, but I was considering doing some sort of resupply thing with the British having to do food convoys in my Turtledove WWI scenario. I can't think of a way to get it to work in that particular instance, as the AI is too stupid to use it and you can't create food caravans/freights with events, as far as I know. I think that this instance might work better though.

[quote]Now this idea is excellent, but I don't know. It sounds chaotic. I have manually placed some rubble about the city and I think a few changeterrain commands might be just as sucessful here.

[/quote

I've tried the nuclear power plant thing with pretty good results in the Turtledove scenario. The only real problem is the global warming that it creates if there are too many of them over the length of the scenario. That's why I want to see if anyone knows of a way to get rid of global warming permanently.

Change terrain events take up an awful lot of event file space, I think. Space-wise you probably won't be able to do it that way.

Case · August 30, 2001, 00:59

Quote:

Originally posted by Field Marshal Klesh

I will absolutely have to make these changes then Case. Thank you so very much for keeping a sharp eye out! That certainly would've been a glaring historical innacuracy had it gone untouched. It makes a big difference for me. Thank you.

No worries

Henrik · August 30, 2001, 02:09

Quote:

Originally posted by Scott F
Are you sure there were so many SS forces in Stalingrad? I wasn't aware that there were that many. There were political officers and all of that, but I don't think that there were Waffen SS units in the area. I thought that those didn't appear until much later in the war.

Well as I was the one to sugest using the "Landser" name for the infantry:
In the book "Stalingrad" (I havent got time to check on the authors name right now, I will be back on that) the author continiously refers to the "average" german soldier as "Der Landser", is landser only SS soldiers?

Quote:

Sadly, no, I have not been peaking, but I was considering doing some sort of resupply thing with the British having to do food convoys in my Turtledove WWI scenario. I can't think of a way to get it to work in that particular instance, as the AI is too stupid to use it and you can't create food caravans/freights with events, as far as I know. I think that this instance might work better though.

The germans are human controlled in this scenario (I should know as a tester

).

Quote:

I've tried the nuclear power plant thing with pretty good results in the Turtledove scenario. The only real problem is the global warming that it creates if there are too many of them over the length of the scenario. That's why I want to see if anyone knows of a way to get rid of global warming permanently.

It is possible to hex edit a file into eliminating global warming.

Scott F · August 30, 2001, 02:38

How, exactly do you edit it to do that? (I don't have a clue about hex editing at all though...)

Scott F · August 30, 2001, 03:15

Also, if I am not mistaken, there were no Waffen SS units in Paulus' Sixth Army. The orders of battle for Stalingrad that I have seen on various websites don't mention any. I don't have my copy of Enemy at the Gates with me though. It might say in there someplace.

Henrik · August 30, 2001, 09:57

The book was:
"Stalingrad" by "Antony Beevor" and the impression I got while reading it was that:
A foot soldier=Ein landser.

Do you say that a Landser=Waffen SS?

And I think there is a large hex edit thread in this forum if you want to search for it (I dont remember how, but it is in thier there).

klesh · August 30, 2001, 11:49

Geez...you guys are breaking up my gig here!

This SS revalation is very true. I just checked all the units involved in Stalingrad. No SS. For some reason, I think I just assumed they were in effect. Maybe it was the reference to 'Sturm Battalion' that is featured in the film Stalingrad that got me assuming wrongly. Not sure. But this is not good. If I take out the 2 SS footsoldiers the Germans will loose 2 of their nasty units. I am already stretching the Wermacht names... and the SS guys give a nice visual break form the feldgrau Wermacht uniforms.

Yes, a confusing conundrum of historical correctness indeed. Any thoughts?

-FMK.

Spanky · August 30, 2001, 13:27

Henrik, as a native German-speaker (though not a German), I share your impression of "Landser" being a colloquial term used for the basic foot soldier - probably similar to "grunt" or maybe "G.I." in the US.

In fact, from what I've gathered from the recent public controversy in Germany, surrounding the Wehrmacht's role in the genocide of WWII, the discussion sometimes revolved around whether the ordinary "Landser" bore any responsibility for the murders, as opposed to just the members of the SS.

klesh · August 30, 2001, 13:51

Spanky,

I think were having a misunderstanding here. Scott was questioning my use of the SS in Stalingrad. He was not questioning Henrik's use of the Landser term. Henrik had the same confusion I think. I straightened him out on AIM...

Speaking of the current debate in Germany...have you read Hitler's Willing Excutioners by Goldhagen? I hear it caused quite a contervery over there. I read it as part of a Directed Studies on Fascism at University here. He makes alot of claims in that book. As a follow-up read I would suggest A Nation on Trial by Finkelstein and Birn. They really lay into Goldhagen's thesis. Great reading for someone interested.

I am making some changes regarding these recent developments.
Back to the drawing board!

-FMK.

Spanky · August 31, 2001, 05:31

Well, you're right, it certainly has - sadly, I haven't gotten round to reading the book yet. Thanks for your recommendations. Actually, German society has been debating its past more than ever before, ever since Reunification and the end of the Cold War. Goldhagen's theses represent one of many aspects of this debate.

Sorry for the misunderstanding. Sort of acted on impulse there!

Case · August 31, 2001, 06:46

This is getting a bit OT, but I'd also recomend 'Albert Speer: His Battle with Truth' by Gitta Sereny. It outlines how Speer (Hitler's architect, and the German minister for armaments) hid his knowledge of the mass murder of the Jews, and how he came to terms with the crimes he participated in.

Getting back onto the topic, FMK could I sugest you replace the SS units with dismounted Panzer Crews? I think that I've seen references to these guys fighting on foot after their Panzers were knocked out at Stalingrad.

If you haven't included them, I'd also recomend that you include 'Hiwi's', who were Soviet 'collaborators'*, who served in auxilliery roles in the German divisions. As casualites mounted many Hiwi's were pressed into the infantry.

*Many joined the Germans to escape from near certain death in the prisoner of war camps, and others saw the Nazi's as superior to Stalins brutality (especially Ukrainians, and Balts)

klesh · August 31, 2001, 10:24

[OT]
The only thing I have read about Spear is his autobiography. Hard to tell how much is truth and how much is damage controll. I must say he presents convincing arguments as to his morality and such. Things such as his refusal to pass on Hitler's order to ravage western Germany as the Allies approached.

But for him, as a kid just out of college, I can imagine having the 'leader' of your country to ask you to do all kinds of big gov buildings must have seemed like a good idea to him. Ya know?

You mentioned the Ukrainians...I am of Ukrainian herritage, so their story is dear to me. I suggest you try to find some stuff about the UPA... Ukrainian Insurgence Army. Don't ask why it isn't UIA

These guys were nationalists who wanted an independent Ukraine. 'Round about '43 these guys started fighting both the Germans and the Soviets! A small band of rebels in the middle of the biggest conflict ever... and they are enemies with both sides!!!! Crazy...
[/OT]

Okay, for the SS guys I have put in a Fj unit. Now, before I ruffle anyone's feathers I did reasearch as to the Fj's role in the battle. The certainly were not a focal point, but they were in fact there. I made a few changes to straighten out all the confusion this has caused me.

The knocked out Panzer crews is a good idea. I will keep it in mind if I get a spot for it. They do have the snazzy black uniforms too.

The Hiwi's I have been debating with myself for sometime now. I need to get a unique way to represent them in the game.

Another good unit to add may be the Police Battalions. They were at Stalingrad in force.

All this unit shuffling has opened a few doors for me.

-FMK.

P.S. This thread is getting close to 150 posts...should I make a new one so as to avoid 'the Curse'?