AU208: Total Eternal Forever War - Reports and Comments

Dominae · May 28, 2003, 21:22

This is the spoiler, strategy and comments thread for AU208: Total Eternal Forever War. The scenario files and description may be found here.

Let reports of Total War begin...

Nor Me · May 28, 2003, 21:26

Quote:

Originally posted by Dominae
Nor Me, there's only so much you can do to be "evil" when creating an AU scenario...Another reason you may feel this one is "predictable" is that it resembles another AU scenario you've played.

I know that alexman might not have seen AU401 so I can forgive him that.

But don't you ask yourself why did I meet just those 2 civs?

As a result, I've not seen either UU so far!

Dominae · May 28, 2003, 21:37

As some may know, I've always been a fan of warmongering, but I've never really ever had the chance of using what is arguably the best warmonger UU in the game: Chinese Riders! That was incentive enough for me to pick China in this game (that and the really useful traits, of course).

At first glance, the start spot looks so-so: a lot of Forest with Plains underneath, the saving graces being access to fresh water to irrigate everything and the Furs. But, I founded the first city, I realised the potential here: a production powerhouse! With the city-center tile providing a minimum of 2 Shields and a nice Forest Game tile to boot, I was looking at 4 Shields per turn on turn 1!

What to do, what to do...

The two options I saw were:

1. Warrior in 3 turns, using the the Game tile twice and the lake once (to avoid Shield waste and to get a "free" 2 Commerce).

2. Archer in 5 turns, using the Game tile the whole time.

With a couple of Total War test runs, I knew that exploration was actually undesirable under the Total War rules. You want to scout out just enough to know where you're going to plant your first few cities, and that's it. Otherwise you meet the AIs too quickly and they invariably rush you with their free units (I'm playing Emperor). Thus, Warriors did not seem like a good idea to me. So, I decided to go with a string of early Archers: slow enough not to meet anyone too soon, but powerful enough to cause the AI some real problems once I did.

Here's a screenshot showing my actions for the first few turns. I avoided chopping the Furs Forests because I wanted to use those for my Granary build. In retrospect this may have been a mistake, since improved Furst on Plains produce the wonderful "2 of everything" Bonus Grasslands yield.

Dominae · May 28, 2003, 21:45

The screen below highlights some micromanagement that is quite beneficial and not too time-consuming early on.

Most players would simply leave the Laborer on the Game tile, since there are 4 Shields to go for the Archer and the city produces 4 Shields per turn in that configuration. But notice that the city grows next turn. Once this happens, the new Laborer gets to a tile and the Shield output of that tile actually counts toward the production for the current turn. This only works for Shields, not Commerce. Therefore, it is better to assign Laborers to Commerce tiles before growth, since the production will "kick in for free" when the city grows.

In the screenshot, the new Laborer is assigned to the Game tile when the city grows to size 2, and the Archer is finished.

Huzzah for micro-management!

Dominae · May 28, 2003, 21:55

I met the Iroquois in 3300BC, and figured they should have some techs to trade, being an Expansionist civ and all. Thus, I set my research to zero and contacted them, instead of waiting until they contact me, throwing us into an uninevitable war with no quarer.

The reason for setting Science to 0% is to trade Gold per turn to the Iroquois, knowing full well that I would never give them a penny (since the negotiations must end with a declaration of war on my side). This allowed me to get the trade shown in the screenshot below.

The "negotiations" went something like:

Iroquois envoy: "Good trade, happy have generous Chinese neighbor".

Chinese envoy: "Yes, good trade, ah, uh...YOU WANT A PIECE OF ME!?!"

I really wanted Bronze Working fast, because I was afraid to fend off the Iroquois free units with only Archers. I had not yet met Rome at this point, and therefore could not foresee that breaking the gpt deal would hurt my reputation with Caesar, preventing me from getting Alphabet in a trade. Had I known Rome was a neighbor, I would have "screwed" them instead of the Iroquois, since the Great Library is a must-have in this game (I figure).

Arrian · May 28, 2003, 22:04

@ Alexman.

Evil, evil Alexman [/OT reference]

Rome founded on iron, Salamanca founded on Horses, eh? Ok, I see how it is!

After much blood & sweat...

Dominae · May 28, 2003, 22:05

After declaring war on the Iroquois and killing off their Warrior envoy, my Archers continued North for the some target practice.

Back home I believe I built 3 Archers and 1 Spearmen before proceeding on to the Granary. With so much production in the capital, I could build that many units and still build a Granary before reaching size 4. In normal games I would never build so many units straight away, but I knew that Hiawatha was coming after me with a bunch of Warriors and Spearmen (the AI's strategy in early war is "rush the capital, even if you're not supposed to know where it is"). My industrious Worker was prioritizing a Road network to my next city-sites. As mentioned before, this was a mistake, as I should have been chopping Forest to hunt beavers on plains.

Then, the Archer-rusher's dream: an enemy Settler-Warrior combo marches next to my Archer, begging to be bopped. I obliged, and ordered my new slaves back home.

Dominae · May 28, 2003, 22:16

Below is a screenshot that pretty much sums up everything at 3050BC. Some things to note:

1. I had just spotted the Roman borders and decided to avoid them for the moment. Both AI civs I knew about looked to be relatively close to my capitol and I did not want a steady stream of free and cheap units aimed at me from two directions.

2. Forces: 3 Vet. Archers (all promoted), 1 Reg. Spearmen.

3. Production: Granary. I wanted to eventually chop down the Forest around the Game and get some semi-good growth from at least one city in my empire. This is why the Spearmen stayed home to ward off potential contact with Rome and/or Barbarians. Usually I would sent all units on their scouting way, but Total War is a horse of a different color.

4. The Iroquois are already sending everything they have (more or less) to strike at me: in two turns I spot four Warriors making their way down the mountain range.

Dominae · May 28, 2003, 22:20

By the way, I'm being very thorough with this first part of my AAR because many people on the Strat Forum have asked questions about the early-game recently. Since I had the presense of mind to take a lot of screenshots in this game, I felt this level of detail might be helpful to some. In no way am I saying this was "the way to do it", as I'm sure my play is far from optimal (probably due to the beers).

Dominae

Theseus · May 28, 2003, 22:32

Are you guys playing at Emperor?

I've been walking on a knife's edge... haven't had such a suspenseful game in ages. Took Rome with my 6th Archer at 1 hp!!

I'm now dealing with the Archer / Warrior / Spear onslaught from both Rome and Iroquois... I might lose.

Dominae · May 28, 2003, 22:35

I finished the Granary in my capitol pretty quickly, and proceeded to build send my first Settler to the Furs to the NW. This second site would also get the benefit of 2 Shields per turn in the city-centre tile, and would hopefully keep military production up, since my "Settler pump" capitol would be losing pop and therfore production capacity every few turns. Nonetheless, I Forest-chopped a Barracks in my capitol, because Archers+Barracks is what China does best.

I still had only 4 military units to my name, and started worrying about defense. I had sent all my Archers up to deal with the Iroquois offensive, and they had done a superb job: not one casualty, and 5 or 6 brave Iroquois troops sent into the Great Beyond. Enjoying the taste of blood and victory, I then ordered all my Archers further North, into Iroquois lands. "Time to generate some Elites", I thought. So, no one but a lone Spearmen back home, I was hoping the Romans would not contact me too switfly.

And not contact me they did, for a long time (read: Rome did not contact for a long time).

Alghough Rome and I knew of each others' presence, neither of us felt the need to open diplomatic channels. I was very happy about this, since this meant the Roman troops were ordered to do nothing, instead of do something against me.

Below is a screenshot of the siege of Salamanca. I had gone in earlier and destroyed the tile improvements around city, most importantly on the Cattle and Furs tiles. Without a Road network, Hiawatha's periodic Archers could never reach my own, which I always placed just out of reach. This did not deter the Iroquois, who gladly rushed out to their deaths every so often.

Panzer32 · May 28, 2003, 22:38

AU 208 Log:

First of all, I chose Carthage as a civ, mainly because of their UU. I am sort of afraid that I'll be wiped out in the beginning becuase I'm not too good at early war. Also, I get alphabet so I can get the GL quickly.

btw, I'm playing regent.

Look at that start location

I build Carthage right on the furs.

I'm trying to explore my immediate surroungings, starting to the SW. I hope to not contact anyone this way...

I research the wheel first. I hope to get horses and maybe be able to skip Bronze working in my quest for the Great Library.

3400bc: There goes my plan... Iroquois scout shows up. Attack!! Traded for warrior code before the attack, however.

Time to go for archers.

3350bc: SETTLER FROM HUT!!! YAYAYAYAY!!!! ooh... on top of mountain, I see a red border.. must not go over there too soon!

2900bc: 4 Iroquois warriors and 1 archer approach my second city... defended by a warrior and two archers...

2850bc: I lose both my archers attacking warriors

.

2750bc: Second city lost to Warrior. Second second city founded, however.

2710bc: Wheel discovered... whats with the one tiled island horsie? No useable horsies in sight

. Bronze working has to be researched.

2590bc: I actually win a battle!!

Unfortunatly, that was the only one I won, and I lost my capital city

2510bc: LOST!! I told people I was bad at early wars

I've got to try again; I'll take lessens from this... i.e. don't have ultra wars against the AI and to bribe the PRNG.

Dominae · May 28, 2003, 22:39

This is pretty much what the Iroquois empire has looked like for the past ~3000 years. Still no Great Leader...(of course, would he be "great" if he made a living ambushing weak Iroquois Archers?).

Arrian · May 28, 2003, 22:59

Theseus,

Monarch for me, pal.
Dominae is up on Emperor.

Update from the front before I go to bed:

Dominae · May 28, 2003, 23:00

Fast-forward a bunch of turns where nothing much happened other than REX, Archer/Spearmen and harassement of the Iroquois. Then:

Roman envoy: "Greetings. Rome is the Light. Our Emperor has had his eye on your for..."

Chinese envoy: "YOU WANT A PIECE OF ME?!!?"

And that was that.

I had still not yet scouted out the Roman lands, and probably should have. Actually, I probably should have rushed the Romans immediately, instead of waiting for their Legions to show up. Sigh. The same exact thing happened to me in AU401, where Rome was once again sitting on an Iron Hill, and I had to assault that with two handfuls of Archers. The difference this time, of course, is that I cannot just fly a white flag whenever I want to build up again; I actually have to defend against the fury of the Roman army!

And defend I did. To tell you the truth, never before have I been so impressed with Walls. What a sweet improvement! "Oh, you've got a super-UU? How about you try and get at my Elite Spearmen behind these Walls!". Of course, the only reason I had to resort to Walls is that Horses and Iron are pretty hard to come by in this scenario.

This is where my game stands now: a stalemate between my superior tactics, and Rome's superior unit quality (read: UU) but inferior intelligence. I'm still not sure how I'm going to get out of this one. I've got some plans, though:

1. I'm inching my way to a Iron Colony in the middle of that weirdly-shaped mountain range. If I can get some 3-power units, this game is going to be a lot easier.

2. I'm circling around the Roman lands, picking off the crappy cities that do not have Legions as defenders. The problem is, the AI uses Legions for offense and defense, meaning that all their cities along my borders are basically impossible to grab. The outlying cites only have Spearmen defenders, so grabbing these should be a more tractable task.

3. I'm slowly getting to Literature. Still no Great Leader yet, but boy oh boy you bet he's going to found the biggest baddest library after he retires!

4. After Literature, I can either go for Mathematics and Catapults, or Map Making and the chance to hook up the Horses on that little island (I can just hear the horses laughing at me from across the bay...). Both routes give me another tool against Rome, which should turn the tide of battle. Right now, Rome is Average compared to me in military, jumping up to Strong when they build some new Legions. If I get new troops, I think that's game over (for Rome).

Really fun game. I'm actually quite glad I did not dispose of Rome early, as now I've got a real fight on my hands.

Oh, and here's a screenshot of my current turn:

Arrian · May 28, 2003, 23:06

One major problem, though:

I used my 1 and only leader on the Forbidden... not in a great spot (pretty good, though), expecting that I'd get another relatively soon (I had a decent number of elite immortals). The next turn, somebody else build the GL.

No Great Library. OUCH. So yeah, I'm a little behind in tech. Plus, I know just about everyone else now, meaning I had to declare war on all of them. I couldn't afford to even buy any tech.

On the other hand, I have control of my continent and I have a pretty decent FP.

This one could be ugly, but I'm hoping I can scratch and claw my way to parity by the industrial age.

-Arrian

Dominae · May 28, 2003, 23:15

The turn after the previous screenshot:

Theseus · May 28, 2003, 23:20

Man, I am so jealous... my game is a night-... uh, difficult. Bedtime, and dream of dead Caesars.

Dominae · May 28, 2003, 23:21

Enough of me, more about you guys:

Panzer32: Tough break. Hope you'll try again. I believe the Carthaginians are weaker than I had originally thought, because even though their UU is amazing against the AI, you really need units fast in this game. Then again, you're not dependent on a Strategic resource to build your Mercs., so that should help here.

Theseus: Yup, I'm at Emperor. This means two things: 1) the AI starts with more units, and so the inevitable initial rush is more difficult to handle, 2) the AI researches better, which is even worse than usual, since you'll never get to benefit from the increased tech speed. I'm expecting this second point to be a real killer once one gets on the world stage.

Arrian: Looking good! That's really really annoying about the Great Library, though. You might have to turn this into a super-builder game just to keep up technologically! Or, you could use the fact that your UU will not be obsolete for quite some time and just keep conquering. I have no idea where the other civs are, so maybe this second option is not feasible (i.e. the other continent is not within safe Galley distance).

Dominae

Arrian · May 28, 2003, 23:28

Dominae,

I'm going super builder, that's for sure. I was hoping to rename more units than just the "Sackers of Salamanca" (though it was neat to get a Leader from nailing the enemy capitol).

Other people are starting the big medieval wonders and I just made the switch to Monarch... I'm still in ancient times.

COME GIT SUM!

-Arrian

Theseus · May 28, 2003, 23:36

Quote:

Originally posted by Dominae
Theseus: Yup, I'm at Emperor. This means two things: 1) the AI starts with more units, and so the inevitable initial rush is more difficult to handle, 2) the AI researches better, which is even worse than usual, since you'll never get to benefit from the increased tech speed. I'm expecting this second point to be a real killer once one gets on the world stage.

To quote Morpheus:

"Here they co-ome."

The Mounted Warriors, that is.

Sh*t. Been dreading it...
_________________________

Re research, I've never really been comfortable with the come-from-behind thing. Given this situation, I finally realize how it is like the 'drafting' that race-car and bicycle riders do... pretty cool.

So, can I survive and draft my way to feudalism?

My guess is I'll have to play this 2-3 times to get it right.

Thanks alexman, for setting this up... I've been *way* to inside the comfort zone for a while.

Arrian · May 28, 2003, 23:44

I think my game is gonna hinge around 2 things:

Adam Smiths

A successful invasion of an island nation + leader to move my palace. The sooner the better.

-Arrian

Panzer32 · May 29, 2003, 00:20

AU 208 Log:

Second try. Regent Carthaginians.

Research Bronze working first this time.

3350bc: Close call!! Iroquois scout shows up for a second then leaves

Next turn, they appear for good. Get CB and pottery from them before I declare war.

3050bc: BW done, go for WC.

2950bc: First NM done; I will probably survive longer than the first time.

2550bc: I have 2 cities now, making NMs. One warrior up by the Iroquois to see what havoc it can cause... at least it takes the pressure off my cities.

2390bc: Pilliage Iroquois furs with my warrior.

2350bc: WC researched; going for writing at 40 turns.

2310bc: Pilliaging warrior destroyed, but it takes down one other warrior with it. Two NMs starts north...

1625bc: Golden age!! Lots of extra shield because my main tile is irrigated plains!

1400bc: Contact with Rome (finally... I could even see inside their borders with culture, but no contact!). Sending 3 NM's to pilliage; still have 6 NMs for homeland defence plus one for keeping the Iroqois in check. Get Iron Working, The wheel, and mysticism for GPT. mwahaha

1375bc: Fourth city founded. See pic for my tight squeezed empire.

Panzer32 · May 29, 2003, 00:25

1200bc: Rome attacks NM with legionary. GA for Rome. Will start on archer rush plan to at least deny them outlying cities.

1125bc: GA ended. Finish writing, start on lit. Start prebuild for GL. Fighting a defensive war before I get Archers.

875bc: First Legionary attacks city; NM falls. \

825bc: Worthy to note: wounded archer fends off reg legionary!

570bc: First Archer rush pary of 7 archers and 3 NMs heads off to Roman cities...

490bc: Archer rush kills First Roman city... others will surely follow

450bc: Contact with English Galley. Another civ to declare war on...

390bc: Next target for the PanzerArcher stack of doom....... Antium!!! And Panzer32 takes Antium with minimal archer casualties

170bc: After reinforcements arrive, Virconium becomes the next victim of the ASOD (archer SOD). After losing two archers, a third takes the city victoriously and burns it to the ground!!

150bc: Last turn of play for tonight. See pic for current empire. Archer rushing SOD in top right. Note palace prebuild for GLib. I hope I get a Gleader soon... I've won at least 8 elite battles

ZargonX · May 29, 2003, 01:11

Start the game... build a warrior... go 4 steps just in time to see the Iriquios scout pop the hut in front of me, giving them a free city... city defended by only a scout, in a total war scenario... you do the math

DaveMcW · May 29, 2003, 01:12

Since I'm playing on deity, I had no chance to for a surgical strike on my neighbors before they rushed me.

4000BC: Build at the start
3550BC: Barracks in Carthage
3050BC: Trade Masonry to Rome for Bronze Working
2800BC: Golden Age begins
2670BC: Great Leader
2550BC: Pyramids
2150BC: Discover Mathematics
2030BC: Trade Mathematics to Iroquois for Wheel, Warrior Code, Ceremonial Burial, Iron Working, Mysticism
1600BC: Discover Writing
1225BC: Great Leader
1125BC: Trade Mathematics to England for World Map, Pottery, and 176 gold
1025BC: Discover Literature
1000BC: Great Library

My army is currently 9 Mercenaries and 12 catapults. The Carthaginian, Roman, and Iroquois GAs are over.

vmxa1 · May 29, 2003, 01:49

Man it looks like you guys are having fun. I have two RPG's going right now, but I am enjoying the reports.
Dom you are making me want to play. Nah, two irons in the fire is more than enough.
What does the other civs lands look like as China is nothing but dirt, don't they get any rain?

Nakar Gabab · May 29, 2003, 01:54

EDIT: Settings were Regent (my usual level, probably a good challenge in TW), Aztecs, AU Mod, all default settings except Restart AI Civs OFF.

First, a disclaimer: I despise Restart AI Civs. I've hated it since it first came into play and always turn it off. As you'll see, perhaps this time I shouldn't have.

I must confess to a bit of frustration in my abortive attempt at China. They just... kept... coming! Ironically, I rushed Rome before I had even the slightest idea what they were up to in the first game.

I can't claim to be so naive the second time around, when I went to my original strategy. If you can't take Legions and MWs, hit 'em before they HAVE Legions and MWs...

Nakar Gabab · May 29, 2003, 01:58

And #2...

I dunno if I should call this fair, but hey, it's not my fault their cities on hills (I hate you Alexman; no really

) fell to a Jaggie rush. I only had two on Rome and three on Salamanca; you snooze, you lose.

I'm wondering what happens next, though...

vmxa1 · May 29, 2003, 04:19

Well I had two hours that I could not spend on my other games so I cranked up this thing. I did not have PTW installed after the game I DL the other day so I went with that.
Did China, I drop all win conditions except Dom and Conq as usual. Drop down to MOnarch per warings.
Sent out warrior south I guess and found hut and got a settler, so I guess I was already behind.
2350bc bumped into Rome, made a trade and declared war, I love it.
2270 bc have three cities after Canton (on a hill as I know Rome will want to come after it) and Vet archer got first blood. A warrior/Archer team is coming.
I have walls in Canton. Roman 3 dead so far.
2110 Only reg archer I had make vet.
1870 I sent two archer vets to Rome, legions got one and the other got the legion. They sent more legions and got the archer, I screwed up, I could have at least pillage before that one got killed. Now Rome is wasting their GA (I hope).