AU mod: Defensive units with attack capabilities

alexman · December 1, 2003, 19:14

The Problem:

Units such as Infantry, Paratroopers, and Riflemen, are marked for AI offense, which encourages the AI to build and use them specifically for offense, even though their attack factors are weak for their cost.

The problem is especially apparent with Infantry, as this unit is the strongest offensive unit of its period, so the AI builds it in large quantities for offense. The AI loses many of these expensive units attacking fortified Infantry without artillery support. Then, when time comes to upgrade these units to Mechanized Infantry, any surviving 'attack Infantry' are converted to 'attack Mechanized Infantry' instead of keeping them for defense and building Tanks or M. Armor for offense.

But there is a problem even for even for units that are not the most powerful attackers of their period, such as Riflemen, Musketeers, Impi, and Numidian Mercs. The AI has a target number of offensive units for the size of its empire, and it builds a certain number of each of the available units that have the AI offense flag. That means that the French AI builds some Musketeers for offense instead of Medieval Infantry or Knights.

Possible Solution:

Increase the attack factor of Infantry, which is often used for offense (mostly by the AI, but sometimes even by the human). Increase the attack factor of Paratroopers, as the AI offense flag is necessary for them to be used for paradrops by the AI. Remove the AI offense from all other units with a weak attack factor compared to their cost. Specifically:

Increase Infantry attack to 8.
Increase Paratrooper attack to 6.
Increase Modern Paratrooper attack to 8.
Remove AI offense flag from Rifleman (build a Longbowman if you want an no-resource 4-strength attacker).
Remove AI offense flag from Mechanized Infantry (build a tank if you want an attacker that requires oil and rubber).
Remove AI offense flag from Musketeer (the musketman has identical attack and is used purely for defense).
Remove AI offense flag from Impi (build Horsemen instead, or even Archers if you have no horses).
Remove AI offense flag from Numidian Mercenary (build Swordsmen instead, or even Archers if you have no Iron)

Most of these changes were implemented in the PTW version of the AU mod. Comments? (I know Nor Me doesn't agree about the Numidian Merc!

)

Harovan · December 1, 2003, 22:34

Quote:

The Problem:

Remove AI offense flag from Musketeer (the musketman has identical attack and is used purely for defense).
Remove AI offense flag from Impi (build Horsemen instead, or even Archers if you have no horses).
Remove AI offense flag from Numidian Mercenary (build Swordsmen instead, or even Archers if you have no Iron)

With these I have a problem. The AI won't attack with these units anymore and has less chances to trigger its GA in time, since it would depend on being attacked for this purpose.

alexman · December 2, 2003, 00:28

You may be right about these UUs, and I would definitely agree if this were true (well, maybe not about the Musketeer). But haven't you been attacked by a spearman before? I have.

The AI attacks with defensive units, as long as it has a good chance of success, and as long as the defensive unit is not guarding another unit.

And as far as the GA is concerned, the AI (unlike some humans) always brings defensive units to escort its offensive units, so a GA is likely going to be from a counterattack. Other AI civilizations gladly counterattack stacks defended by a UU.

vmxa1 · December 2, 2003, 01:32

Quote:

Originally posted by alexman
Other AI civilizations gladly counterattack stacks defended by a UU.

So do nasty humans, that want to burn the AI's GA.

Cryptor · December 2, 2003, 06:52

I'd just remove the offensive flag from all defensive units. Cavalry attack, infantry escort and back up. I don't see the problem.

MrWhereItsAt · December 2, 2003, 07:41

Quote:

Originally posted by alexman
You may be right about these UUs, and I would definitely agree if this were true (well, maybe not about the Musketeer). But haven't you been attacked by a spearman before? I have.

You may have, alexman, but I challenge you to say such attacks are common, especially at Monarch and below (where I play). Perhaps it's just my games, but I have very rarely seen this - sometimes, but not often.

Quote:

The AI attacks with defensive units, as long as it has a good chance of success, and as long as the defensive unit is not guarding another unit.

Ah - as long as it has a good chance of success. But the AI cannot value getting a GA the same way a human could, and a human may very well choose to attack with a defensive UU even where there are less excellent chances of victory in mind, due to the potential GA benefit. To me, the potential gain is well worth risking losing multiple UUs with in battles with odds the AI may not consider worth an attack, if the UU was not flagged as 'offensive'.

This is a reason for keeping the offense flag on those defensive UUs - to attempt to help the AI mimic what the human player might well do to start the precious GA, by using defensive UUs in battles that may not have odds that would be considered worth the risk if the unit was defensive only.

Hope this is comprehensible - it looks a bit awkward now I've written it!

Stuie · December 2, 2003, 09:18

I actually prefer bumping the Rifleman up to an attack of 5 and leaving the flag in place, but that's because I don't like the idea of longbowmen fighting in the Industrial Age.

Other than that, I like the changes listed.

lockstep · December 2, 2003, 13:48

Quote:

Originally posted by alexman [*]Increase Infantry attack to 8.[*]Increase Paratrooper attack to 6.[*]Increase Modern Paratrooper attack to 8.[*]Remove AI offense flag from Rifleman (build a Longbowman if you want an no-resource 4-strength attacker).[*]Remove AI offense flag from Mechanized Infantry (build a tank if you want an attacker that requires oil and rubber).

I agree.

Quote:

[*]Remove AI offense flag from Musketeer (the musketman has identical attack and is used purely for defense).

Again agreed. As for the the 'GA trigger' argument, I guess no one has worried so far that the Greeks aren't likely to trigger their GA with attacking Hoplites.

Quote:

[*]Remove AI offense flag from Impi (build Horsemen instead, or even Archers if you have no horses).

As archers don't have the retreat ability, a combination of archers and offensive impis may be useful on special occasions. Not sure about that one.

Quote:

[*]Remove AI offense flag from Numidian Mercenary (build Swordsmen instead, or even Archers if you have no Iron)

The NM can be used as archer with very strong defense, so I'm with Nor Me - leave the 'offensive' flag on.

Nor Me · December 2, 2003, 20:49

I agree with everything apart from the merc that's been mentioned.

Although the AI does bring defensive units on the attack, it often doesn't bring enough for it's tactics especially later on. Maybe that's because after the ancient age, there's a bigger range of movements to deal with. It might be that the AI tries to keep certain numbers of offensive and defensive units so when defence is better, more offensive units die and they build more and vice versa.

The AI would be better having the occasional mech inf. as well as tanks but it normally just has too many of them.

In the case of the numidian merc, I've not seen the AI pass on swordsmen enough to warrant the change. It really can be a better attacker than archers or horsemen without the human player's ability to avoid counterattack so successfully.

Having dual use units makes the AI less predictable from the human POV. I don't know whether a merc or bowman in a stack of doom is being used for attack or defence so have to be prepared to count it as a potential attacker and to kill it if that's what's needed to take out more lightly defended attackers

TimHobbit · December 2, 2003, 21:03

I’m sorry, but I am confused about something here. Infantry can’t attack?

The foot soldier has been the main offensive force since the beginning. There were thousands of riflemen killed on both sides during the American Civil War and maybe even millions of them killed during both World Wars! Remember trench warfare? You get several hundred infantry together and attack the well-fortified enemy lines on the other side of no-mans-land? While I agree that in many cases the foot soldier is not the “Best” offensive unit, historically in many cases it was the only type of unit available.

Fosse · December 2, 2003, 21:35

I recall the PtW Au mod having riflemen with 5, like Stuie said, which I too support.

Keep up the good work Alexman, and keep up questioning his good work, everyone else!

As for the defensive UUs.... if the AI is at war when that UU is in the game, it will rigger a Golden Age, whether it's attacking or not. If they aren't at war, then the point is moot anyhow.

I think that these units, which are poor attackers in their respective eras, should not have the offensive flag checked.

MrWhereItsAt · December 3, 2003, 01:33

Quote:

Originally posted by Fosse
IAs for the defensive UUs.... if the AI is at war when that UU is in the game, it will rigger a Golden Age, whether it's attacking or not. If they aren't at war, then the point is moot anyhow.

I don't think this will be the case, as it is so easy to get around this when you are at war with the AI. And that is more likely than the AIs being at war with each other (unless you have manipualted the lot of them with MPPs). If you are facing NMs it is a simple matter to bombard them down to the level that you attack other units in the stack/city, or you are almost assured a win when you attack. In this way you can keep the AI from getting their defensive GA with hardly any effort at all.

Jaybe · December 3, 2003, 13:17

Quote:

Originally posted by TimHobbit
I’m sorry, but I am confused about something here. Infantry can’t attack?

The foot soldier has been the main offensive force since the beginning. There were thousands of riflemen killed on both sides during the American Civil War and maybe even millions of them killed during both World Wars! Remember trench warfare? You get several hundred infantry together and attack the well-fortified enemy lines on the other side of no-mans-land? While I agree that in many cases the foot soldier is not the “Best” offensive unit, historically in many cases it was the only type of unit available.

TimHobbit, the footslogger's weakness in attacking is a basic design "feature" of Civ3, and the AU philosophy is to change the feel of the game as little as possible. Do not seek guidance from the AU in this matter, though it is great in many other fields.

Fosse · December 3, 2003, 19:52

Quote:

Originally posted by MrWhereItsAt

I don't think this will be the case, as it is so easy to get around this when you are at war with the AI. And that is more likely than the AIs being at war with each other (unless you have manipualted the lot of them with MPPs). If you are facing NMs it is a simple matter to bombard them down to the level that you attack other units in the stack/city, or you are almost assured a win when you attack. In this way you can keep the AI from getting their defensive GA with hardly any effort at all.

You're right, good point. In my above post i wasn't even thinking about this.

I was considering all of the wars that the AI goes and gets itself into that don't involve humans. So long as the AI is using its UU against another AI, it will probably get the Golden Age.

As for the player tactic of preventing such golden ages... I don't see it as something we should have to stop. The player is always going to have such tactis the AI can't even know about, and I don't really see this one as a game breaker.

MrWhereItsAt · December 4, 2003, 05:52

Yeah. Just because we can think of something to advantage the AI more doesn't mean we SHOULD, by AU rules.

BUT, I am arguing AGAINST change, so that fits with AU policy too, as I consider the (so-far) proposed course of action to be too imbalancing in the other way from what we want.

Theseus · December 6, 2003, 14:37

I agree with the proposed changes, except for the NM and the Impi.

1) I am extremely wary of changes in the very early game.

2) If attacking with Warriors and Archers is viable (Settler Bopping, anyone?), than attacking with these units surely is as well.

ZargonX · December 6, 2003, 18:01

There is also a new unit most people haven't discussed yet: TOW infantry. Unlike the other units in the 0-bombard line, this one has a higher defense than offense. And, speaking from experience, if the AI has no rubber, this its attack unit of choice. In my experience so far, it actually works out well in the AI's favor, but that was only on one play-through. Has anyone else had expereince with this unit?

Nor Me · December 6, 2003, 19:16

Quote:

Originally posted by ZargonX
And, speaking from experience, if the AI has no rubber, this its attack unit of choice.

In the 1 game I've seen at that stage, an AI had no oil and seemed to build more marines than TOW infantry for offence. If this proves to be a common occurence then we might consider doing something about it.

yxhuvud · December 7, 2003, 14:14

in my experience, I know that at least the city governor wants to build tow infantry instead of tanks, and I suspect that to be the case for the AI as well, and that is simply really really bad.

alexman · December 11, 2003, 00:40

Now that we have a panel, we can start making decisions:

AU mod panel members, you have 24 hours to vote:

Yes/No: Increase Infantry attack to 8.
Yes/No: Increase Paratrooper attack to 6.
Yes/No: Increase Modern Paratrooper attack to 8.
Yes/No: Remove AI offense flag from Rifleman
Yes/No: Remove AI offense flag from Mechanized Infantry
Yes/No: Remove AI offense flag from Musketeer
Yes/No: Remove AI offense flag from Impi
Yes/No: Remove AI offense flag from Numidian Mercenary

If the majority votes "No" on an issue, we may have a new vote on a different proposal.

My vote:
1.Yes
2.Yes
3.Yes
4.Yes
5.Yes
6.Yes
7.Yes
8.No

lockstep · December 11, 2003, 02:04

1: YES
2: YES
3: YES
4: YES
5: YES
6: YES
7: NO
8: NO

ZargonX · December 11, 2003, 02:10

1. Yes
2. Yes
3. Yes
4. Yes
5. Yes
6. Yes
7. Yes
8. No

Stuie · December 11, 2003, 09:31

What about increasing Rifleman to 5 attack? This was in the old Mod.... but I guess removing the Offense flag kind of alleviates the problem. Anyway....

1. Yes
2. Yes
3. Yes
4. Yes
5. Yes
6. No
7. No
8. No