Au402 Dar5: 1000ad-1500ad

vmxa1 · June 29, 2003, 05:09

Where to start? Mistake after mistake so far and the time is growing. At 1485AD I measured it at nearly 2 minutes a turn. This time starts when I hit the end turn and stops when I get to control the board again. Not when it comes back to report a build in a city.

1100AD Mongols finish Sistine, so that hurts. I was 11 turns away from even starting the thing. I may have been better off to go the Engineer path, but I figured that I do not need Gunpowder for a long time and Leos is not as good as Sistine on this map. I will not need money as bad as I need happy citizens.
1160 finally traded a few techs for peanuts and gave some away as they would be useless soon anyway.
1210 headed for Education to get universities. I suspect that the worst investment would have been to go for the Great Lib. No contacts to speak of and the leaders would negate it quickly (not me but any civ).
1280 not really a highlight, but I got my first promotion from a barb.
1310 start Astronomy in 21 turns. I moved up to third place of the 9 civs I know.
1320 Mongold finish Leo. Next turn I hear Rome is gone and I never met them.
1325 Russia asks for peace and of course we never had a battle. I get 100 + peace + Engineering for peace + Theology. Barbs are a bit of a problem for my fledgeling towns on the tundra land mass. It will be a long time before I can make it so no camps can form. This could be dangerous. I have a horse there trying to keep them in check and two galleys parked to expose as much as I can.
I will trade Theology were I can since it is out of the bag now.
1355 Contact India
1385 More contacts after trading contacts with the Mongols who are in first place by quite a bit.
I get Chiv/Eng/Invention after all is one. I must have something wrong as I thought I got Eng already, not sure s I marked the trades after looking at my Science screen, so I probably already had it. Astronomy soon so Sea tiles will be available.
1425 some minor trading from time to time. Mostly when a civ wants my map I offer any contact that they are missing instead for what ever I can get.
I did not build more embassies due to money. I have them with the first 8 contacts. I will have to check for those that could made trades for goods and make an embassy for them. Need money.
1460 Troops on mainland and the Iron land are upgraded.
Money short, working on Banking in three turns and want to get Adams. I am basically hoping the mongols are not going that direction. At least my capitol is somewhat productive now.

1490 I notice lately that when I build a town with a settler it lags for a bit with the settler squating and then finally the animation finishes.
I also see at times when I trade and click on accept, it seems to hang there for awhile and then goes on. I had never seen either behavior before.
I am now back up to 8th place out of 19 (Rome is gone).
so 4 civs are still unknown to me or anyone else. I just hope none are bigger than the Mongols.
I traded my map finally as I need cash after buying a few units and settlers on the tundra map and all the upgrades. In any event someone started building Megellans, so the gates are open. I know it would take a long time for anyone to get around the map, but it will never be worth more than now.
1500 Observatory in 4 turns if no one beats me. That would be brutal as I do not have any chance to get Econ done in time to switch. Econ in 7 turns at 70%.
I am very close to the three civs just above me and they do not seem to be getting better, so I should pass them soon.
I am going to try to get some caravels (I have two now) and fill them with Knights and go for the Arbians. I would like to get to Japand, but I think it is too far away.
The are weak and so is Spain. I forget where they are though. I will probably bribe Cleo to get an MPP/RoP to lauch on Arabia and not have to worry about them helping. I did not count my cities, but I have not been asked to build the FP and no GA either. Ha no wonders, no UU = no GA.

vmxa1 · June 29, 2003, 05:10

Here is the mini:

vmxa1 · June 29, 2003, 15:28

I posted this at about 2AM so I forgot to mention I had made a gpt trade with Persia for Gems that is very sweet. I traded around Astronomy and got one lump of 160. Three civ that had 0 balance gave me small gpt, one was 9gpt. This is why I have some cash now.
I will see if anyone can trade for gem if I build an embassy with them. If no sea lanes, then I will wait.

BigDork · June 29, 2003, 22:51

Hi all...

Things are definatly going better for me. I've given up on trying to fix my computer, it was just stressing me out way to much, so I decided to just sit back and play this out. Got myself a book because it's about 2 minutes between turns currently.

Oh yeah, I don't think I've mentioned. I'm playing as the Vikings on regent.

For the most part I've been building. Not much else to do. Many, many, many Viking sailors died to get me contact with Arabia, Egypt and China. I know there is more past Egypt but I just don't want to waste anymore galleys trying. Tech wise I'm ahead of everyone.

Militarily I'm just catching up. As soon as I hit the middle ages I went straight for berserkers. Oh yeah.

After that I went for caravels. And then, on to Arabia.

I decided to take the little island just off the coast of Arabia first. I hit their southern city first. It was size 12 and defended with 7 spearmen.

Not too big of a deal but I wasn't expecting that much resistance. Of course my berserkers made quick work of them and the city was mine. On the next turn I took the northern city easily. Killed about 5 archers and the island was mine.

And that's just about where I am right now. I'm healing up and getting ready to sail on down to Damascus on the southern tip of the Arab/Egypt island. Looks like a good city to grab. I'm just waiting for some pikemen from the homeland to arrive so I can fight off any counterattack. Berserkers suck at defense. I'm going to push as hard as I can but Arabs have chivalry so I'm expecting knights soon. That is unless they don't have horses. I'm assuming they do but I haven't checked.

I've also got a caravel sailing through Egyptian waters right now. I'm going to find me the other civs. I noticed to the nw of Egypt a whole bunch of sea. I bet it's a path to more islands. Here's hoping anyways.

Dom...

I don't know how much you played with this map but it's turning out to be a nasty. Lots of desert everywhere. And China has 18 incense???? Yeah, that's gonna be mine sooner or later.

I'm looking forward to reading everyone's DARs later. I've been ignoring them so I can do this on my own.

BigD

BigDork · June 29, 2003, 22:54

Oops...

Just noticed, I forgot to draw my little notes on the screenshot. Basically I have 15 berserkers on the little island I just took. I'm going to load them up on caravels. They're gonna meet up with some coming from the homeland. We're going to land in Damascus and push our way south as far as we can. I'm hoping to get Chivalry and perhaps a couple of cities out of the peace treaty. Here's hoping anyway.

BigD

vmxa1 · June 30, 2003, 00:42

Looking good BigD.

nbarclay · June 30, 2003, 01:19

The new millennium dawned with Carthage's finalizing its efforts to locate and open trade relations with the world's other civilizations. Two centuries later, Carthage led the world into the industrial era. The Ottomans were only two technologies away: Theory of Gravity and Magnetism. Carthage's financial lead continued to build in spite of using extensive amounts of cash to short rush universities and, in less productive cities, a few other improvements. Someday, that financial advantage (as leveraged by Leo's) would turn into hoardes of cavalry, but hoardes of horsemen would be needed first and Carthage only had twenty thus far. (Isolation does have its compensations.)

Over the decades, the wonder race continued to unfold. Carthage came to boast the Great Lighthouse, Sistine, Magellan's, and Copernicus's, while Malaca boasted Leo's, Smith's, and Newton's (and would eventually become the home of Universal Suffrage as well).

The year 1330 proved to be yet another of history's defining moments. Just one turn before, Carthage had made one of its occasional deals to bleed off whatever gold the Ottomans could spare: in this case, 197 gpt. That left Magnetism as the only tech the Ottomans lacked of being in the industrial era, while Carthage had recently started work on Replaceable Parts as its third industrial tech. The Ottomans also had Military Tradition, which Carthage hadn't been in a huge hurry for (since its horseman force was still a paltry 87 units, well short of the hundred plus we wanted). Replaceable Parts was of interest in the hope of upgrading Numidians and musketmen (most of the latter pumped out at a 1-turn pace by Malaca's iron works) to infantry to help with the invasions. (How was I to know that I'd need my invasion force to get my rubber for infantry?

)

As I do fairly often, I checked F11 to see how I stacked up. Until then, I'd been first in GNP. Now I was second. Ottomans plus Military Tradition plus a boost in GNP. Do I smell something? Sure enough, the Ottomans suddenly had gold to burn like it was going out of style. And what did I do about it?

nbarclay · June 30, 2003, 01:59

So instead of the Ottomans' having a huge research advantage, I was raking in the cash at over 600 gpt - in spite of my military build-up and 100% science rate. My gold surplus, already approaching 8000 gold, was about to become truly astronomical. As long as the Ottomans didn't declare war on me to get out from under their massive payments to my treasury, I was in good shape. (Rome, on the other hand, was another matter. With Sipahi available, it just took the Ottomans a few turns to finish them off - the second victims of the dastardly Ottomans.)

Shortly after that, I got tired of waiting for a good opportunity to trade for Military Tradition. (I wasn't about to pay the Ottomans cash, and trading an industrial tech straight for a medieval one was similarly unattractive.) Arabia didn't have Gunpowder or Chivalry yet, and Egypt didn't even have Feudalism, so I figured I could grab the island off the Arabian coast with knights and upgrade later. I had about twice as many forces as I had transport for anyhow. These are the heart of my forces as of 1375 AD. (Note the nine guerillas upgraded from my ancient warriors, which do at least give me a few units with a defense of six even though I don't have Nationalism and I don't have rubber for infantry. Also keep in mind that the knights were all upgraded from horsemen - over 5000 gold even with Leo's, but with the Ottomans paying for it...

)

nbarclay · June 30, 2003, 02:24

I hit the island simultaneously with two knight forces, the southern force accompanied by guerillas and the northern accompanied by the five Numidians I hadn't upgraded to musketmen. (One of the neat things about Carthage, and something I hadn't really thought of before this game, is that until your GA is triggered, you can build and upgrade cheap Numidians no matter what more modern units are available.) The landing took place in 1390 AD.

The Arabs were nice and obliging, charging my Numidians with archers. Thanks in part to the artillery support that accompanied our landing force (that, at least, doesn't require rubber), our troops defending the landing suffered no losses, and our golden age was triggered at last. In essence, we had the financial benefit of the golden ages of the two wealthiest civs in the game coming to us at once. Research was going relatively quickly for this game (still never under six turns), and we were raking in the cash at the same time.

Once our galleons brought in the second wave of reinforcements, we landed on the Arabian coast still using knights. (The Arab city in the shot below was the landing zone.) For the first few turns after taking the city, we simply sat back and picked off Arab units coming in for the counterattack, with artillery battering the pikes down a bit first. Then we finally got an opportunity to trade for Military Tradition (an industrial tech for that plus gold) and upgrade all the knights except for three elites to cavalry. With that done and practically all our workers brought over to the Arab continent (remember what I said earlier about having two towns pump out a worker a turn each through my GA?), it was time for a breakout and a classic railroad blitz. Arabia was Carthaginian territory after two turns of offensive combat, and Egypt fell in a single turn after a turn to rest and heal (thanks in part to help from captured Arab and Egyptian workers).

Catt · June 30, 2003, 03:08

Continued . . .

The Queen was pleased. Most of the world was known, and England commanded a position of strength – mostly deferred strength, in that knowledge and preparation allowed for future advantages but didn’t necessarily translate to an immediate lead.

In 1070 AD the English were the first to discover Navigation. Elizabeth promptly traded for five different luxuries, concentrating on trading with backwards civs and using ancient age techs (primarily the optional Literature) to pay for the luxuries. Five luxuries was somewhat excessive, bringing the homeland total to seven luxuries, but it allowed size 12 cities without a market to avoid riots at 0% luxury spending (with a temple) and several productive English cities on the eastern island were working on universities and Elizabeth was loath to spend precious funds on entertainment or to build markets before universities. With the elimination of entertainment spending, Chemistry was available to the Queen’s scientists in 6 turns at 100% -- but the Ottomans had already discovered the technology.

The Queen had ordered a pre-build for Magellan’s, but on the same turn that the English discovered Navigation and switched the pre-build, the Persians began work on the wonder as well. Since several civs were working on Copernicus’ Observatory, Magellan’s was in doubt for the English. Elizabeth believed that with Navigation in the hands of both the English and the Persians, the Ottomans would soon have it as well, especially with Chemistry to dangle as trade bait. Chemistry was too expensive in trade, and the Queen’s exchequer traded Navigation to Osman for all the Ottoman gold and a large ongoing payment stream. No other civ had yet discovered Economics, and the Queen explored a trade of Econ to Persia – it would fetch 100 gold and 95 gpt, but with few available additional trades, Elizabeth passed and kept Economics to the English.

In 1090 AD, the hapless Celts declared war on Persia. Elizabeth was pleased to see that Persia’s economy would be diverted to wartime needs, but worried that a Persian immortal would spark a Persian golden age.

An English caravel discovered China, which was isolated from all other civs. China was still in the ancient age, but controlled 18 incense. The bulls’ eye superimposed on America moved rapidly east to China.

In 1110 AD, with English scientists two turns from the discovery of Chemistry, that technology was discovered by Persia (it was already known to the Ottomans). The Queen directed that the time to strike economically was at hand. The English traded Economics to the Ottomans for 226 gpt, 175 gold and a map; Economics to Persia for 46 gold, 2 gpt, a map and Chemistry. The foreign income stream allowed the English exchequer to run 100% of the budget on science – Physics was due in 6 turns and England still enjoyed a surplus of 282 gpt. The English city of Gloucester (eastern island, near the wines with access to cows and mountains) was 7 turns from completing Smith’s Trading Company. Magellan’s was due in York in 8 turns.

In 1120 AD, English sailors discovered the Koreans to the east of Egypt. The Koreans had contact with the Russians and Aztecs, but contacts were expensive. Elizabeth traded Literature for the Korean world map, and the English galley set out for Russia. Also in 1120 AD, English settlers formed the first city on the far southern landmass well south of the home isle and began building a worker. Finally, in 1120 AD, Babylon demanded contact with the Koreans and declared war when rebuffed. The declaration trigged WLTQD in several cities, including York which brought Magellan’s completion date to the same year as Smith’s.

Around 1150 AD, English caravels finally reached the small island to the far north of London. One of the 3 traveling settlers had landed, and the second managed to unload just before a German settler. The speed of English caravels ensured that a third English city would be founded on the island before the German settler could move into position and found a city, and thus the island was claimed for the Queen.

Catt

nbarclay · June 30, 2003, 03:09

In the meantime, Catherine the Great (known in Carthaginian circles as Catherine the Terminally Stupid) had made a demand for contact. Carthage had given into such demands from the Ottomans on two occasions on the basis that Sultan Osman, while not as polite as he could be, was at least a valuable trading partner. But Catherine had no such redeeming qualities to make her demands tolerable. What little trade had occurred with Russia at all had been of only very limited value.

At first, Carthage was content merely to bribe the Aztecs into joining a war against Russia, including a right of passage agreement in the deal to facilitate an eventual landing. (The Koreans and Russians were already fighting, so there was no urgent need to instigate a fight on thats side.) But with the Arabian/Egyptian continent conquered, and with 119 cavalry and 34 infantry available (albeit a few of them allocated for defensive use), it seemed like a time to teach Cathy a lesson in power politics.

And so, 1500 AD finds Carthaginian troops once again on the march. We've taken an Aztec city previously stolen by the Russians, and the mountain at the north end of our string of troops has seventeen galleon-loads of workers and reinforcement troops that just landed. (The string's purpose is to keep my Aztec allies from accidentally getting in my way.) I have one more wave of troops and workers to land and some roads and railroads to build before I strike into Russia's heartland, but while Russia's musketmen (and riugged terrain) will almost certainly slow down my blitz compared with what I did to Arabia and Egypt, it's hard to imagine how they could stop it.

By the way, during the Arabian war, I rushed a forbidden palace in a newly built town around the south centeral area of that continent. I'm not sure that's its permanent location (the town is deliberately intended to be abandoned if I decide I want my FP elsewhere later), but I considered getting a FP up and running quickly important if I wanted to stay competitive with the Ottomans.

Both the Ottomans' and my GAs are ended, but the Ottomans finally made their switch to Republic so their GNP is higher than mine at least for the moment. But I'm now ahead in manufactured goods (thanks to factories all over the place), which bodes well for the future. And the I suspect that I'll be "acquiring" territory more quickly than they do from now on.

Carthage's best days are still ahead of it.

I'm seven techs into the industrial era (ending at Refining, Combustion, and Replaceable Parts). Four of those are techs the Ottomans don't have, but the Ottomans have Nationalism, which I don't, and may have Communism and/or Espionage. So I'm not sure exactly how big my lead is, but I do have a huge advantage in that the techs I'm missing are optional (and likely to be available cheap from someone else eventually) while the Ottomans are stuck trying to play catch-up on the mandatory techs. No one has gotten Medicine yet (both the Ottomans and Persia got Steam Power as their free tech), so I haven't been in a hurry to push in that direction. With my Iron Works city and my large number of elite cavalry (among other units) for trying to generate great leaders, I'm not too worried about losing the Theory of Evolution if I wait to trade for Medicine. (Speaking of wonders, I forgot to mention that Carthage's GA did do one really nice thing for them: it gave them the production boost to edge me out for Bach's, the only medieval wonder since Sun Tsu's that I didn't get. Shakespeare's is still up for grabs, since no one's discovered Free Artistry yet.)

Catt · June 30, 2003, 03:11

I’m not a huge fan of micromanagement, but I employ it in certain circumstances – wonder races are one of those circumstances. London, formed near the gem mines and the river, cried out for a science wonder, and I set my sights on Newton’s University. Nearby York was using all the high shield tiles in constructing Magellan’s Voyage, but in 1130 AD London changed its construction project from a knight (with 1 turn to go) to a cathedral with 10 turns to go. The switch preserved almost 70 shields towards Newton’s. Physics was due in 4 turns, and I hoped that I could secure Theory of Gravity in 6 turns – if I couldn’t do so, a London citizen cold be moved from a mined grassland to a nearby sea tile, and delay the cathedral if necessary. If I could get ToG in 6 turns, the cathedral could be converted to Newton’s without sacrificing any of the few shields available (no palace pre-build in the capitol) and citizens could be reassigned to high-shield tiles. I knew that if I were successful at building Smith’s (which I expected) that JS Bach’s would be completed soon thereafter, breaking any wonder cascade, and Newton’s would be England’s. As it turned out, I did complete Smith’s, Bach’s was built by the Ottomans, and ToG was available in 6 turns. I didn’t have to move a London citizen off a mined grassland, but I thought the sequence might be helpful in showing the potential of micromanagement. On converting from a cathedral with 1 turn to go to Newton’s, the wonder was due in 23 turns (IIRC) – but reassigning London’s citizens to mined grasslands and the nearby mined hills (moving York’s citizens to sea tiles) dropped the wonder completion to about 12 turns.

Catt

Catt · June 30, 2003, 03:12

Here’s a shot of the f1 screen (cities listed by shield output) just prior to the completion of the two wonders. England is collecting 412 gold per turn from foreign civs (Ottomans, Germany, and Persia, primarily) and ToG is available in 6 turns at 100% science. Note that London will complete a cathedral in 6 turns – by selecting “Look at the big picture” when the tech choice after ToG is offered, the cathedral can be switched to Newton’s. Both Smith’s and Magellan’s were completed in 1170 AD.

Catt

Catt · June 30, 2003, 03:14

In 1230 AD the Queen elected to engage in another round of technology trading. The English traded Physics to the Ottomans for Metallurgy and 187 gpt; and to Germany for Printing Press and 33 gpt. Persia was falling back in the tech race, apparently because Xerxes was paying gpt to Osman for technologies – the Ottomans enjoyed large income surpluses that Elizabeth was keen to bleed off for the English empire’s benefit.

Below is a montage of the English empire at 1250 AD.

Catt

Catt · June 30, 2003, 03:15

The cheeky Ottomans had somehow managed to beeline straight for our southern isle, and one Ottoman city was founded there, with another settler on the ground. Two Ottoman caravels were also in sight. The Queen directed Englishmen to colonize the island as rapidly as possible.

In 1270 AD, English scientists discovered Magnetism. England was launched into the Industrial Age when the closest competitors had yet to discover either ToG or Magnetism. Steam Power would take 10 turns, but the Queen directed scientists to drop back for Military Tradition – the discovery of Magnetism allowed upgrades to faster and larger Galleons, and several newly refurbished Galleons were waiting in the port of the small northern island, prepared to load a dozen knights, a few muskets, and an ancient warrior or two for garrison duty. The invasion of China was within sight, and the Queen envisioned a knight assault, followed quickly by an upgrade of the invasion force to cavalry. When successful, the invasion would carry over to either the Americans (who traded spice to England) or the Japanese (who traded furs to England).

In 1280 AD, Elizabeth was surprised, during a regular parley with Osman, to discover that the Ottomans suddenly had a large income surplus – prior gpt deals must have run their course without her noticing. The same was true of the Germans. The Persians could afford nothing – Elizabeth suspected that Osman’s new found income was partly due to a trade deal between the Ottomans and Persians. Though she wasn’t anxious to speed the foreigners, both scientific civs, towards a new age, the Queen decreed that all excess gold must find its way to the English treasury. She traded ToG (since the wonder seemed safely in English hands and delaying Galleons for the enemy seemed to be the better choice) to the Ottomans for 353 gold and 415 gold per turn; and to Germany for 206 gold per turn. Germany had discovered Democracy – but that held little interest for Elizabeth – she would pick that up as a fringe benefit in some future trade.

Below is a screenshot from 1290 AD showing the imminent invasion of China – Canton, with a harbor and local access to incense, is the target.

Catt

jshelr · June 30, 2003, 08:05

America’s Strategy

(1) Read several pages of a good book between turns. I recommend Tuxedo Park, a story about the guys who developed radar in the early days of WWII, or a new biography of Newton by James Gleick, which is very good.
(2) Don’t even think about domination. That project would take more work than a reasonable PHD thesis.

America’s Implementation

(1) No military. A couple of Knights wandering around each Island is plenty. Let the great waters protect us.
(2) Beeline for Navigation and get that wonder.
(3) Sell those techs carefully to get out of the era with a tech lead.

Navigation yielded discovery of the large tundra island to the South and room for enough cities to get to the FP.

America nearly got all the wonders starting with Copernicus, missing Smith’s. While on Steam, we sold magnitism for nearly 600 gpt to the three trailing civs. They should now be slowed and they will also do democracy and military tradition while we get ToE and also factories. Then we will be off and running toward Hoovers, planning to create an Island fort in the home area and to bring the tundra up to a level where it helps with the advanced techs.

Notable: there is no need for the FP in the home islands. The cities are operating near full efficiency due perhaps to the map size, lots of we love the president days, and courthouses. No need for communism/police.

Risks: If the AI remains at peace, changes to democracy, and trades well, America will be caught on tech despite the good lead. So, need to get pop growing above size 12 asap and probably, need to cautiously stir the pot on war to get key competitors embroiled in conflict.

The other risk is the tundra Island and our far north outpost island. If the tundra island is oil-filled, it will draw invasion forces. American needs to defend it well which includes lots of workers to build the RR network very quickly. Forestry industry looks viable to generate some shields down there. More worried about the effects of war on the home islands’ tech effort than actually losing either remote location. The tundra island may never amount to much, despite its good size, although we plan to try to build the FP down there.

jshelr · June 30, 2003, 09:33

There are a number of backward civs possessing lux beds with large quantities. We will not attack them but we plan to respond efficiently to any attack by stealing the lux with infantry. (Just read a hint of rubber problems above -- he, he. May need to revise this post to include a rubber raid on a backward civ.)

nbarclay · July 1, 2003, 00:04

Catt, I hope you aren't planning to get far with 14 serious combat units and a warrior this late in the game on this big a map. One thing I learned in AU 207 (our huge-map game) is that on bigger maps, AIs tend to have a lot more units relative to the amount of land they have. My assumption is that that is because reduced corruption both boosts their production rate and boosts their income to pay upkeep on lots of units. In any case, I fully expect that you'll get swarmed and your units will have an interesting time just trying to stay alive for their first few turns.

PeaSoup · July 1, 2003, 07:37

Quote:

Originally posted by nbarclay
Catt, I hope you aren't planning to get far with 14 serious combat units and a warrior this late in the game on this big a map. One thing I learned in AU 207 (our huge-map game) is that on bigger maps, AIs tend to have a lot more units relative to the amount of land they have. My assumption is that that is because reduced corruption both boosts their production rate and boosts their income to pay upkeep on lots of units. In any case, I fully expect that you'll get swarmed and your units will have an interesting time just trying to stay alive for their first few turns.

haha, I have to agree with nathan

my experiences with large/huge maps is that even if a civ is relatively backwards and small, if they are isolated on an island.. chances are they'll have plenty of units running around.

I haven't gotten spies in my game yet, but I suspect that even Greek with their 5 cities on their own little island will have around 100 military units..

I'm sure China will have a lot more.

PeaSoup · July 1, 2003, 08:40

Well, I haven't posted an update since DAR1, so here's where my game stands at 1580ad

note the mad $$$

-result of micromanagement actually, and checking every civ every turn trying to get the best deals.

-not buying techs, have been stealing ai's new techs and selling them, depending on how many civs you sell to and for how much, you can usually get 4x the cost of stealing back through trading. Great way to make extra money with all the secondary techs the ai researches. (one side effect of stealing techs is that you can see which tech the ai is currently researching (text in bold))

-cost of stealing goes up after every attempt (I think), currently costs 4000 gold to steal safely.. pocket change really

-noticed that the ai was willing to pay 700gpt for a late middle age tech that only I had, so factor in the ai trade discount at diety (60%?), can figure out prices other ai is willing to sell, and sell to the buying civ before then.

-been gifting ai with around 20gpt before making tech deals where the ai gives me 200+gpt. Since I get my gpt back anyways, I'm thinking it'll help discourage the ai from breaking deals. No sneak attacks yet.. so far so good.

-I expored my map with about 10 galley and sold my map every turn. When new sea tiles were discovered, I could usually get 20-40 gold from each civ (provided they had the gold). Not a bad investment for 10gpt in unit support.

-I only sold contacts to those civs that could afford it, and isolated the minor civs w/ lux for as long as possible. This resulted in Japan having no other contacts other than myself. Since I always trade my world maps, the ai doesn't need to explore around Japan, and since the island is out of the way for everyone, the ai had no reason to go there. One less luxury for the ai.

notes about the game:

-no wars for myself yet, ai has demanded contacts several times. I deliberately declined when in the ancient and middle ages hoping that the ai would declare war so I can get the happiness bonuses, but they were all bluffing

-only wonders I managed to get: bach's, newton's, smith's, and 2 turns away from universal sufferage (no one else has industrialization). No lighthouse means many many lost galley.

-russia has most wonders, what's with the iron and coal right next to Moscow?

Span also has iron and coal around their capital, good thing they are behind in tech.

-didn't settle tundra island, I'm building up my forces to invade Span for the luxury + put myself in position to invade mega continent if I want to.

-after Span, I'm either going to take out Japan then China.. or go after one of the weaker civs on the mega continent, but I really want to take out Russia for Sistines and Magellan's. Russia will be extremely difficult.

-I have a 1 tech lead, industrialization. Russia is researching Replaceable Parts.. going to steal that too.. From other people's DARs, looks like there's no rubber, hopefully Spain will have some in their jungle infested island.

that's all I can think of for now, going for spaceship victory, but techs take 12-18 turns to research, so I need to secure more land if I want to keep my tech lead and launch the ship. Don't even have enough cities for FP.

enjoy the image

jshelr · July 1, 2003, 09:43

America The Trader

We've traded our old techs for all the lux and huge gold per turn for several hundred years now. America is running a 550 gpt surplus at 100% science and is a few turns from scientific method, at which point the iron works will crank out TOE.

The pack of science civs, however, is not far behind. At the turn, they got different techs and traded quickly to nearly eliminate our tech lead.

We have more than 11k in gold and the gold surplus is being used to bring the tundra island to the south into the flow with decent coastal citites. Commercial docks might be a big help soon.

My impression is that the lagging civs are now trading toward parity and that this will end up a close game with a large number of late-game civs in the hunt.

FrustratedPoet · July 1, 2003, 11:35

Great DAR's everybody! Especially Catt and Nathan. Simply fantastic!

Catt · July 2, 2003, 00:24

Quote:

Originally posted by nbarclay
Catt, I hope you aren't planning to get far with 14 serious combat units and a warrior this late in the game on this big a map. One thing I learned in AU 207 (our huge-map game) is that on bigger maps, AIs tend to have a lot more units relative to the amount of land they have. My assumption is that that is because reduced corruption both boosts their production rate and boosts their income to pay upkeep on lots of units. In any case, I fully expect that you'll get swarmed and your units will have an interesting time just trying to stay alive for their first few turns.

Only as far as the elimination of China

. Seriously though, in my game I hadn't traded contacts with China to anyone -- they knew only me. I can't remember if they had made it out of the ancient age or not, but it hardly mattered since they had no iron, and only one source of horses near Beijing. And their terrain was very poor. Those few English knights were upgraded to cavalry after taking the first two cities, and one additional galleon-full of cavalry was deposited on the island. China gone. I killed perhaps 10 horsemen, a half dozen spears, and a few archers. Everyhting else was spears in cities, many of them regulars. It wasn't a massive cavalry rush as Nathan set up and executed, but it still took only about 6 or 7 turns, brought me to number one in land, and secured a sole supply of incense.

But your warning is well-taken. My experience on huge maps is very, very limited, and I am finding myself temporarily shorthanded in an invasion of America. More below, when the DAR continues. But

very impressive on the size of your forces, Nathan. I am just now beginning the build-up of forces as factories come online.

Catt

Catt · July 2, 2003, 00:46

Continued . . .

The English invasion of China was swift and decisive. Canton was taken, supplying the home isle and colonies with raw incense. Shortly after the fall of Canton, English scientists rushed news of a new discovery to the front -- the battle-hardened troops, particularly the knights, felt a bit silly, and some could be heard to complain that they were being demoted to mere mounted musketmen, but the new rifles made available to the newly christened English cavalry forces (more particularly their mobility and attacking power) quickly convinced the troops that the Queen's rumpled scientists back home knew a thing or two. English cavalry fanned out across China and quickly deposed Mao, securing England's 7th great island and generating the first English great leader during the last few battles. Rather than delay the conquest in order to form a new army, the war ended with Nelson (?) safely ensconced in a subdued Chinese city.

Meanwhile, those rumpled scientists went back to work. Steam Power was discovered in 8 (?) turns, followed by Industrialization in 9 and then Electricity in 9. A large and growing worker force RR'd the home isle and set sail for the colonies to RR them as well. A forbidden palace was constructed on the eastern isle -- the Queen was a bit befuddled on where to construct her second palace, and ultimately decided on the eastern isle in the hopes that it would provide benefits to much of the home isle, all eastern territories, and even the southern glacier. Preserving little corruption in the science city of London was important, and Elizabeth was growing restless at home, thinking that decamping her royal entourage from London for more exotic climes in the future would makes sense.

In 1360 AD, France declared war on Germany -- a disturbing development since the Queen felt certain that Germany would overrun the hapless French. Despite overwhelming advantage, Bismark proceed to induce numerous others into war with France. But there were brighter spots for England on the geopolitical stage -- the Mongols and Ottomans had been at war for centureies with little effect other than to force the Ottomans into a Monarchy. But in the 1300's the tide turned decidedly in the Mongol favor. Ottoman cities began falling. Elizabeth was pleased, for the Ottomans had long represented the most significant threat to the Queen who expected to lead an empire over which the sun would never set. Germany's status as contender to dominance was growing.

When Bismark entered the Industrial Age, the Queen was pertubed to discover that somehow the German scientists had learned the secrets of Medicine in the blink of an eye without any effort at all. But she knew it could have been worse - the Germans could have stumbled upon Steam Power or Nationalism.

In 1380 AD the Queen was astounded to discover the strength of the German economy. Though she didn't want to trade Steam Power, she could not let significant German income remain in Bismark's hands. Elizabeth traded the knowledge of Steam Power for 748 gpt -- although Bismark had no access to coal, the Queen felt certain a border city of the French would fall soon, giving the Germans the power of rails.

Below is a screenshot just before the FP was completed, showing its location. Cathedrals are serving as pre-builds for factories. Though hard to tell from the shot, China is subdued.

Catt

Catt · July 2, 2003, 01:03

Continued . . .

With strengthened forces coming from the home isle, and newly-experienced cavalry from the former Chinese lands, and invasion force was assmebled with America as the target. Nelson was used to form a cavrly army, and forces were moved into position. Some 28 cavalry (including the army) and four muskets landed outside Buffalo, home to a spice colony and a coal mine.

Buffalo fell. So did Miami and St. Louis. The occasional American musketman interfered with English battle plans, and several swordsmen and medieval infantry counterattacked. Miami's improvements were rapidly sold and Miami abandoned and razed so as to concentrate invasion and resistance-fighting forces in Buffalo -- a large force of American counterattackers, furious at the Queen's hubris, were marching east. The Queen had made a serious mistake -- the Americans had no local sources of horses or saltpeter, but were importing the tools of war. Elizabeth had planned to secure trade embargos against the Americans from all their trading partners, tapping into the mighty English treasury as needed to do so. But the English had not yet discovered Nationalism, and without that knowledge, trade embargos were unavailable

The Queen had contemplated landing sufficient forces at Washington to sever all trade routes and stifle Americ's trading, but decided to employ the trade embargo for the first time in memory -- unfortunately, the lack of experience with embargos caused the confusion, and the Queen's forces are resigned to seeing the occasional musketman and knight. However, the Americans have no gold, and so upgrades will not be possible. Hopefully the time needed to build expensive units using imported resources will favor England.

Below is a compilation screenshot from 1435 AD - my current point in the game. A second leader was generated but not yet used, and a victorious army has allowed the construction, nearly complete, of the Heroic Epic. More facts / thoughts on the game below -- out of the narrative fashion.

Catt

Catt · July 2, 2003, 01:15

So . . . it's 1435 AD. I should be able to withstand a furious counterattack from the Americans, and eventually take all of America, albeit on a slower pace than I would have liked. Replaceable Parts is due in 9 turns. No one has anything other than Medicine, and then only Germany, the impotent Ottomans, and perhaps Persia (but Persia's competitiveness is a mere blip caused by the free tech at the new age), they are a MOnarchy (long war with Celts) and pose no present threat. I'll complete Universal Suffrage soon, and ToE is a foregone conclusion. The scariest competitor is virtually no more -- the Ottomans have almost been kicked off their home continent by the Mongols. The Ottoman capitol should relocate to the southern ice island sometime soon. I don't worry about the Mongols as a tech / economic challenge, and I don't worry about a Mogol invasion. Germany still presents an economic threat, but I suspect they will spend valuable time on Nationalism and maybe even Free Artistry. Bismark never took the French coal city before peace, meaning he has no access to coal, and no one else with coal in their borders is very close to Steam Power. Germany hasn't however, enjoyed its Golden Age yet, but I suspect that I will be able to divert all that Golden Age gold to England's benefit in any event.

One looming threat remains, but it is more hobgoblin than true threat. My military is pathetically weak. A coordinated inter-continental invasion could do serious damage . . . but I don't really fear that from an AI. After America, I can take Japan if I want, and maybe Carthage too. America brings the local luxury control to 4 -- each of Japan and Carthage would add another. Without a serios threat such as the Ottomans presented to Nathan, I think this is probably won.

I'm going to slow down a lot on turns at this point -- my last timed turn (back in the 1300's) totaled a full 8 minutes and 12 seconds of pure waiting time! I'm now halfway through the new Harry Potter novel (read during waits) and getting busy in RL with work and the American July 4th weekend approaching.

Great DARs from all so far!

Catt

jshelr · July 2, 2003, 07:00

America the Fort

We've finished TOE and Univ Suff. Hoover in about 20 turns, more to make sure that nobody else gets it than because it is worth it on this map.

Rubber was found in our South Tundra Island and we are ready to bunker down in our island forts, quickly building lots of artillery to ride on our rail system. Go ahead and land. Make my day. Next up is a blue water navy with the iron works cranking out capital ships.

The gold surplus is over 15k, despite rush building every turn in the tundra. GPT surplus is around 800. We need to switch to democracy and trade for sanitation so we can spend more per turn. Any invader will find all his neighbors have been bribed into alliances to fight off the unwarranted attack on the peaceful Americans.

With TOE and replacable parts we have a four tech lead and are feeling sassy at this point, although anarchy will probably cut the lead by half a tech. Democracy seems safe with US and no intention to invade anyone. I suspect that the AI civs can trade to catch up on tech, however. And the trailing civs all get free tech at the next turn. We will see. Slowly.

Trading: the huge number of civs provides opportunities for extensive gpt and essentially free lux, obviating the need for war. America has been able to trade old techs for lux readily so far. And civs just behind the 3 that were breathing down America's neck before TOE will pay substantial gold per turn for techs that are more modern but don't cut into the American advantage. There is some risk that leading civs will capture our lux sources from weaker civs and become pains in the ass. But we will have to deal with that as the occasion arises. Meanwhile, we have been giving military techs to neighbors of civs that look to be the major long term threats.

Tundra: I have a hunch that the tundra island is going to be a big advantage in this game. There was lots of game on the island. We have a size 12 city and several large towns down there. Rubber and, we can hope, oil lie ahead.

Is there a thread on how to post screen shots? I'm willing to give fortran programming tips in trade for help with screen shots.

jshelr · July 2, 2003, 07:33

Catt: "When Bismark entered the Industrial Age, the Queen was pertubed to discover that somehow the German scientists had learned the secrets of Medicine in the blink of an eye without any effort at all."

This happened in my game as well, cutting a substantial tech lead down to nearly nothing in one turn as three science civs all went through the turn together and got different techs. Need to keep that risk in mind when trading for gold per turn with science civs that are right behind.

Jawa Jocky · July 2, 2003, 10:39

Quote:

Originally posted by Catt
I'm now halfway through the new Harry Potter novel (read during waits)
Catt

I think we needed to pick bigger books

nbarclay · July 2, 2003, 11:31

The key to avoiding having AIs catch up by multiple techs when different scientific civs enter the industrial era (except maybe as a temporary condition) is to only research Industrialization (out of the three entry techs) yourself. You can then generally trade to civs other than your closest competitor for the missing techs, so you get the same sort of trade advantage from other scientific civs' entering the era that your closest competitor does. In contrast, if you research two or all three entry-level industrial techs yourself, you lose ground from researching technology that your competitors end up trading for instead.