AUSG101 - Diplomatic Solo Path

Cort Haus · October 1, 2003, 22:10

There are no diplomatic or cultural victory teams in the AUSG101, so I thought it would be fun to play a solo diplo game.

As usual, I'm a Johnny-come-lately to collective Apolyton games, so I've some catching up to do. Here's DAR1:

EDIT: this DAR is a bit of a micro-log, and may be unreadable. I just couldn't face editing up the highlights into a decent piece of prose, but I've added some summaries later in the thread.

However, this log does contain much 'thinking out loud', and mulling on decisions, which may be worth seeing for a view of the thought processes (or lack thereof!) involved in decision making.

Cort Haus · October 1, 2003, 22:13

TURNS 1-10:

4000
Scout will start north. Send the scout 7,8 along the river
build city,
decision : mega quick granary or scout? Must scout to use trait.
start scout
worker 4 onto cows
decision : myst or alphabet. Don't know whether cultural linkage is on, so can't guess starting techs of neighbours.
research mysticism @ 10 sci (27 turns)

3950
decision: faster mysticism or faster growth?
decide to road to speed research.
scout1 moves 8,9 to hill

3900
scout1 7,7 to mnt

3850
scout1 1,4 to hill

3800
scout 2 born in mecca, Will go east - 6,6 & sees hut
road complete, start irrigation. Mysticism down to 18 turns
scout 1 8,8

3750
decision : pop hut or carry on? Nothing worse that an enemy scout nicking yer hut, but too early for a settler.
scout 2 moves 2, took hut and got bronze working. That'll do. Sees coast. 2 again sees fish and spice. Nice.
scout 1 moves 8,8. Notice hut out west by coast but too late. Oops, this is what happens when you don't look between moves 1 and 2.

3700
scout 2 moves 9,6 to hill, scout 1 west 4,4 and sees green border. Hmmm....this could be very bad news.

3650
scout 2 moves 8. Hmph, shouldn't try to explore forest but need to scout around capital.
scout 1 moves 7,8 onto hill over Kyoto. Yes, it's Japanese flavoured bad news. And they look so harmless when they're a baby... 2 archers right here, right now would make this game a lot simpler.

Not yet 10 turns in and there's trouble on the horizon.

Togugawa, ever the angry young man, is annoyed as usual, and has the Wheel, which I can get plus his 10G for Pottery and Bronze. Time to start buying some credit. I gift him 2G and check the deal with 12G on his side. He'll accept so :

repeat
gift 2G
until ((Wheel + AllHisGold) > (Bronze + Pottery)) OR AllMyGold = 0

ie : when he won't pay his total in addition to the tech or I run out of money.

My last 2G tips his attitude to Cautious and I get it nearly all back in the deal: Wheel + 19G = Bronze + Pottery. Toggie cheers up and goes Polite. Cool.

I'm already looking forward to meeting Bismo, Shaka and Xerxes soon. (I remember Arrian's Carthage game that some of us played on a Pragmatic Power thread - I managed to cosy up and get the b*stards to all start wars with each other instead. But then I had NM

)

3600
scout1 heads S (2,2) towards the hut
worker 9 onto other cow
scout 2 7,8

3550
Mecca grows to 2
worker roads
scout2 8,8 to mnt
scout1 3,2

Cort Haus · October 1, 2003, 22:18

3500
scout2 9,9 to mnt
scout1 visits deserted nubian village. Hmm, shoulda waited.

3450
scout1 south 2,3
scout2 north 8,8 sees another hut.

3400
scout2 7,4 to mnt, sees yet another hut
scout1 3,3 to clear last darkness on nw coastline
worker irrigates
myst now 7 turns

3350
scout1 3,3
scout2 4,1 to mnt

3300
scout1 3
scout2 9,8 onto hut gets settler. Yippee! (pic:settler_3300BC)
Decision : Now what to do with it?
I'm not good at brilliantly deploying settlers found 12 squares from home, but this one is in very good terrain.
Would corruption cripple production? Does that matter if I rush a temple and claim good land? Should he come home and join the core?
The furs 333311 of Kyoto is bound to be taken by Japan, and if I did get there first there would quickly be war. I'm keen on the idea of crowding Japan out, keeping them small and denying them iron. If their settlers have to cross my land to found cities they'll be weak and easy pickings when/if Toggie kicks off

Decide to settle on nearby hills adjacent to river. This will offer defense and has chance of bagging Iron. Move 4.

3250
Scout1 2,2. pops hut - local maps
Settler 7
Scout2 9,6 to mnt

3200
American scout homes into view. They have Masonry, and trade it plus 5G for the Wheel.
America also has a second city.
The settler looks wistfully out across the grasslands and over the distant river to the Furs. The adjacent plains-river is only five moves away and Kyoto is not size 3 yet. We can get there.
Defending it is another matter - from both Japan and Barbs, but decide to risk it. Move 1

Mecca size 3, set 10% luxury. Growth in 5 turns, Gran next go.Wasn't worth holding back growth as science wanted.
Scout2 2,2 to mnt between 2 remaining huts
Scout1 Decision : clean up darkness in corner around spices (tempting, and possibly a bad habit of mine) or get on with it.
Decide to move 8,9 towards Mecca and get on with finding the others
Worker 4 to s/grass

3150
Granary complete - warrior or spear? warrior, we're in a hurry to get some units out.
Worker mines
Scout2 6,6 to hut - warrior, who moves west (4) towards the to-be-second city. American border appears.
Scout1 9,9,8 - can either go for remaining hut then into some darkness, or north to scout around Japan
Settler moves 1 towards destiny.

3100
Settler moves 1 - notice that Kyoto is now size 1.
Might be time to get the purse out for Japan soon, but what's this? - they have Warrior Code and 1G - which they'll trade for Masonry.
They could meet America any time, so better trade it now.
It's worth taking time to optimise relations at this point, so I again pull the old 'incremental-gift-shuffle' tactic out of the bag of Swinging Arabian Merchant Tricks, and give them 20G which they give back in the tech deal.

Conscript warrior moves 4, and will continue until reaching second city.
Both scouts can reach the hut in 3. Can't see the american scout.
Scout1 goes north 8,8. Scout2 moves 2,4 towards hut.
Mysticism in 1 turn, adjust slider to get change.

3050
Mysticism, but I wish I'd gone for Alphabet as there's nowt to trade it for. It might have to be Iron now, even though I still want Alphabet and had hoped to find a commercial civ by this point. Decide on Alphabet - it's cheaper (27 turns cf 35 turns) and with lux & unit support eating gold for a bit, I'll trade for Iron Working later. Hang on - I'm religious and can use Monarchy until Republic, but Polytheism is 40 turns even with 7 science, and I don't know if I can sustain better than that while expanding. If I did Polytheism at 10% science that'd be a fairly standard religious opening, but I luurve Writing. I want those embassies and contacts, and anyway the AI can overtake me to Polytheism. This decision is as tough as the settler question 3 turns ago. Polytheism at 10% it is. The cash'll be handy right now - I need troops and tribute.

Scout1 4,8. Scout2 1,4
Settler 1
New Warrior heads north towards second city. Build another warrior.

Cort Haus · October 1, 2003, 22:21

The Settler :er, pic probs ...

Rhothaerill · October 1, 2003, 22:22

Cool!

I was wondering if anyone was going to play it as a solo game. And going for a different win condition to provide a counterpoint to the team games too. Thanks Cort Haus!

Cort Haus · October 1, 2003, 22:28

Settler from hut:

Cort Haus · October 1, 2003, 22:33

3000
Settler moves into city position (drumroll and baited breath)
Scout1 8,8. Scout2 4 onto hut - maps, yuk. 6.

2950
Mecca completes warrior (fortifies) and hits size 4, with 7spt so start Spearman.
Settler founds Medina. Uses Forest to get 2spt and set to Spearman.
Scout2 goes southeast to explore ( wont report each turns moves from now)
Scout1 goes to check between Medina and Kyoto.
Japan is cautious. America is powerful. Now getting 6gpt so gift 1gpt to Japan - back to polite - and gift Ceremonial Burial to Abe.
All this focus on Medina is driving decisions atm. Should I have brought the free settler back to build a second pump and get a good REX going, or a barracks city, or a wonder city? Nah - you can't beat a luxury! Unless the effort cripples your young civ...

2900
Scout1 sees Japanese warrior on hill (Kyoto-33). Hello nice warrior. Medina is starkers but conscript arrives in 2 turns, reg in 5 turns.

2850
Warrior departs. Toggie cautious again. Still no sign of Japanese settler. Maybe Kyoto isn't nestled in the coast after all. (pic below)

2800
Mecca hits 5 and completes Spear, fortifies. Starts settler (3 turns).

2750
Now have a strong military to Japan. Good, but they might not see it that way. Condsidering another gpt

2710
Desicion : Worker finishes road & mine on Mecca-9 - does he road north-east towards horses or south towards spice?
The horses are in a better city site, so NE it is.
Grease Tokugawa's palms with another 1gpt. 5 turns since last gift, and a good time to 'step up the friendship'. Polite again.
Abe's cautious now, so I crash the ungracious wretch another 1gpt too. Polite. I still have Myticism over both of them.

2670
Mecca builds Settler. Switch to temple (5 turns).
Send Settler and Spear to horse tile for third city. What, '5-spacing', everyone exclaims in horror?
Well, coastal cities will share tiles with the capital, so give Mecca some room, right?
Anyway, I'm playing peacfully (I hope) so I need plenty of land, and it looks a good site.
Second warrior arrives in Medina.
The repulsive, evil, vicious and foul-smelling Tokugawa is cautious again. I hate that guy.
Why don't I build an offensive army and secure a better future for this continent? Switch from temple to Speaman.

2630
Americas builds Boston by Scout2, south of Washington.
Mecca size 4. You just can't keep it down

2590

Cort Haus · October 1, 2003, 22:41

2550
Mecca builds spear. Start settler (4 turns). Lincoln is now cautious too. :sigh:
Apparantly, though, I have a stronger millitary than either. Barbs reported near Medina.

2510
Found Damascus. Start Granary.
Medina completes Spearman. Starts Walls.
Scout 2 sees 2 american warriors nr Washington's border
I'm almost ashamed to report this, but I'm gonna give another gpt to each of these MFs, totalling a shocking five gpt into enemy economies. It might not pay off, but it has in the past. The humiliation ledger now reads:
Togugawa : 1gpt for 20 turns, 15 turns, and 10 turns
Lincoln : 1gpt for 20 turns, 15 turns plus CB 10 turns ago

I think they'd be daft to declare war now, but I expect their newly rediscovered 'politeness' will melt away by about... next turn.
Maybe they'll cheer up if they eventually research something, and can I trade 'em Mysticism (the whole point of researching it) and they can stop being jealous. Until Polytheism.

2470

2430
My predictions of normal service being resumed on the diplomatic front were true. My charming neighbours have the hump again. I didn't check them last turn.
Mecca completes settler, starts Spearman.
Settler/Spear head north for rivered plains by the two gold mountains, where I intend to build a barracks city.

2390
Oh no... american warrior shows up by Damascus.
Suddenly both my deadly foes have got Mysticism, and the Americans have 41G. They had about 20 each before do I guess America finished and Japan paid for the cheaper remainder.

2350
American warrior departs, barbs appear by Medina. Move warriors out onto forest.

2310
Mecca builds Spear, starts settler. During these spear/settler builds I've been using the lux slider as and when required to keep Mecca happy.

2270
a quiet turn

2230
Road to Damascus completed.
Found Baghdad. Set to worker.
Start road to Baghdad.
They now both have Horseback Riding. Hmm, unless someone Japan popped a hut and America threatened, that doesn't fit with my earlier theory.
The good news is that Japan is building behing Kyoto.

2190
Turn 40! Last word for DAR1

vmxa1 · October 1, 2003, 23:13

At least you know whose block to use on the next round.

Cort Haus · October 1, 2003, 23:24

End of DAR1 block.

It's a turn late, I didn't manage to save it at quite the right moment but it won't matter for this solo run.

Now I've posted this, I can start reading the other players DAR's. Can't wait

. How you lot are gonna sort out / cope with the emotional wear-and-tear of picking the next turn block is beyond me. Good luck

Rhothaerill · October 2, 2003, 00:03

Quote:

Originally posted by Cort Haus
Now I've posted this, I can start reading the other players DAR's. Can't wait

. How you lot are gonna sort out / cope with the emotional wear-and-tear of picking the next turn block is beyond me. Good luck

I haven't really experienced it since I'm only overseeing the game, but I imagine it's a bit "weird" to play someone else's savegame instead of your own. Everyone is taking it pretty well though which is why the game is succeeding so far.

Makahlua · October 2, 2003, 00:38

"Weird" is an understatement

It's kinda like laying a game aside for a week or, and coming back to it you go "Now what the hell was I doing??" x 100 becasue you really -don't- know what 'you' were doing....

It has it's up points learning-wise but it's still weird....

Cort Haus · October 2, 2003, 00:45

I need to add to this some stuff about the general game plan, and a readable summary of some kind. Later.

Cort Haus · October 2, 2003, 06:03

2110BC - Civ Summary

Cities : 4 + settler about to build
Total Pop points : 9
7 techs. All Level1 except Alphabet, plus Mysticism, half way thru Polytheism.
Units : 4 Spears, 3 Warriors, 2 Scout, Worker, Settler
F11 : 1st in pop, Mfg, GNP, Prodctivity

(edit: corrected no of cities)

Cort Haus · October 2, 2003, 06:30

Plan:

To expand peacefully.
To avoid war.
To avoid escalation of enemies in case of war.

Diplowins don't need the SS resources, or quite the huge economy to get the Modern techs - especially the more of them needed in the AU mod.

This means that less land is needed for resources and power than for a SS win. In the past, modest single core Civs have seen me comfortably to the diplomatic finish line. Get the nose ahead in the late industrial, and keep that nose clean through history and make some friends.

However, this is the AU Mod, which I've never played before so I'm bound to be making some mistakes, and be facing stronger enemies, so I want a good Rex with all the power that brings. An early granary will make a settler pump, and I'll also want a barracks city, but I'll probably pass on the ancient wonders unless opportunity tempts.

There will be some serious doffing of caps and paying tribute if nasty civs are about. Try to get the other civs to war with each other, not me, by being lower down the grudge-list.

Expansionist trait should mean early tech lead or at least parity, depending on the RNG Gods.

Military approach - defensive and detente. Some vet offensive mobile forces later - 2 units per border town, including 1 spear. Warrior-only garissons attract barb and AI attacks. INtend to avoid war through good relations.

EDIT - added:

Research intent: Research Mysticism & trade for Alphabet, then get the very important Writing for embassies and peace. Plan B - Monarchy beeline.

Early temples are a possibility to use Religious trait, but growth, defence and upkeep considerations are v. important so may have to sacrifice ultra-early culture. Not intending to be taking cities so flipping not an issue.

Mountain Sage · October 2, 2003, 06:43

Why don't we, and others, create a PP / diplomatic team for the next AUSG play.
My Spaceship team is already planning to conquer the galaxy

Cort Haus · October 2, 2003, 06:52

Quote:

Originally posted by Mountain Sage
Why don't we, and others, create a PP / diplomatic team for the next AUSG play.
My Spaceship team is already planning to conquer the galaxy

Yes, I read Alexman's DAR1 and thought "blimey, MS is gonna have problems with that".

If we did have a diplo team the members would have to be commited to a PP style, and experienced at it, or the interpretation might be "lets eliminate all opponents so there's no-one else to vote for".

I couldn't bear to see thousands of years of patient diplomacy undone in an instant.

Cort Haus · October 2, 2003, 07:06

Build Roster:

Mecca : Scout, Granary, Warrior, Spear, Settler, Spear, Settler, Spear, Settler
Medina : Spearman, Walls
Damascus : Granary
Baghdad : Worker

(edit: added Baghdad)

Cort Haus · October 2, 2003, 07:19

Main features of this block:

The second settler from a hut, the decision to go for the furs near Japan with it, and the resulting focus that will require.

GPT Gifts to enemies to (a) keep them from war - especially Japan, whose furs I've settled and (b) longer term relations

alexman · October 2, 2003, 10:41

It's not my fault that the fastest way to get through the tech tree is to get your empire up to a good size! In order to have a peaceful game, you need to set an additional constraint of no aggressive war, or something.

By the way, the strategy to get a fast diplomatic vote is identical to the strategy to get a fast spaceship launch. These two victory types are almost identical in that they require you to get through the tech tree as fast as possible.

So Cort Haus, perhaps you would like to join the spaceship team, and split to get a Diplomatic victory as soon as the tech for the UN approaches?

vmxa1 · October 2, 2003, 12:55

Quote:

Originally posted by Mountain Sage
Why don't we, and others, create a PP / diplomatic team for the next AUSG play.
My Spaceship team is already planning to conquer the galaxy

Not the world, only the land mass we occupy.

Solomwi · October 3, 2003, 00:16

Quote:

To avoid war.

That's a shame, because those Japanese, just from looking at the screenshot, seem like an Arrian Deception waiting to happen.

Cort Haus · October 3, 2003, 06:49

Thanks for the invite Alexman

. I was mightily impressed by your DAR1 (I haven't read the second block yet), especially your approach to the 4-turn settler pump. I just disagree about the interpretation of victory conditions.

Victory conditions do not have an expiry date before 2050, and IMO ultra-early victory dates are like ultra-high scores. Nice, but not my prime objective.

For me the prime objective is to have fun by picking a strategy and following it through to victory, regardless of how efficient it is.

No doubt the fastest way to win Civ by any victory type is to empty the home continent of rivals before meeting the other civs. That means that all three teams should persue identical early strategies. (Kill everyone you can see.)

All the more reason to have one player, maybe only a fraction as good as the ultra-efficient ones on the other teams, but at least offering some strategic variety. By the mid-late game, all teams should own their continent (and have the game check-mate and effectively over) while I'll still be fending off my rivals and desperately seeking someone who'll trade me coal.

So yes, I'm setting myself the same constraint that I do on most of my builder games - no aggressive war. I should have made this clear at the top.

There's a fair chance that the AU mod will crush me later, but that's the chance I'll have to take.

Mountain Sage · October 3, 2003, 06:55

Quote:

Originally posted by alexman

It's not my fault that the fastest way to get through the tech tree is to get your empire up to a good size! In order to have a peaceful game, you need to set an additional constraint of no aggressive war, or something.

Just to remind you that my PUP 'rules of engagement' are different from Arrian's UP.

Basically: UP is to conquer the continent and possibly much more to get the most of luxuries, resources, GL (= wonders) and then to build peacefully for the few remaining turns.

PUP (Pragmatic Ultimate Power) is to conquer only enough lebensraum to have a viable empire, then build and trade and... whatever, peacefully (if possible, war is never excluded).

In our case: Alexman is going the UP way. I would have pruned back the American a bit, but kept Japan and America as vassal states.

I like Alexman sense of humor: Arabia has 19 cities (soon to be 25+), Japan 6 or 7, America 12 or 13 (soon down to 6-7) and he STILL wants 'to get your empire up to a good size'
Oh, don't forget the Arrian's deception!

Again,

P.S.
Cort Haus: PUP's of the world, unite!

alexman · October 3, 2003, 10:22

Quote:

Originally posted by Cort Haus
Victory conditions do not have an expiry date before 2050, and IMO ultra-early victory dates are like ultra-high scores. Nice, but not my prime objective.

Yes, I stand corrected. In the spaceship team we have set the goal of the fastest possible launch, which requires a more aggressive approach. Your goal is quite different.

Mountain Sage, for a fast launch we need just enough land to be able to sustain a 4-turn research for the duration of the game, and I don't think PUP can achieve that. 4-turn research usually involves two solid cores, but doesn't require all the bells and whistles of UP.

Mountain Sage · October 7, 2003, 07:20

Quote:

Originally posted by alexman

Mountain Sage, for a fast launch we need just enough land to be able to sustain a 4-turn research for the duration of the game, and I don't think PUP can achieve that. 4-turn research usually involves two solid cores, but doesn't require all the bells and whistles of UP.

I agree with you, of course, but the thought of not leaving behind fully equipped and state-of-the-art metropolis is just too

to contemplate...

Cort Haus · October 7, 2003, 09:15

What we're doing here is imposing extra victory conditions or objectives on ourselves is to take the victory types to their logical conclusions.

In a genuinely competitive SS race, time would be of the essense, so the lets-get-the-swords-out solution to create a near-optimum size economy is a competitive and rational approach. You know you can beat the AI without the optimisation, but the extra goal is to achieve it in style.

Likewise, the theoretical goal of a peaceful diplowin can be grabbed with cynical alliances and MPPs by the most bloodthirsty civ, but there's more satisfaction from doing it in style - and with the goal of attaining sufficient power to win without waging aggressive war and with the additional goal of avoiding all war if possible.

MS - I find the PUP definition confusing. It's either pragmatic, or it's ultimate, but not both, as I understand the meaning of the two words. Pragmatic Power would make perfect sense, but then that's PP which you want to use for 'Perfect Peacenik'. Something has to give

Cort Haus · October 7, 2003, 09:20

How about PPP for Perfect Peace Play?

I don't like the 'Peacenik' word, it's too Hippy-Dippy.