AUSG101 - Spaceship Team DAR 3

Rhothaerill · September 25, 2003, 23:52

This is the DAR (“during action report”) thread for the third turn block of 30 turns (1250bc – 550bc) for the spaceship team. Please post your DAR of the next 30 turns, including thoughts of why you did what you did in the game, along with a screenshot at 550bc and a savegame at 550bc. Please name your save with your nickname, team name, and the time (i.e. rhoth-spaceship-550bc).

Team registry:

alexman
ZargonX
vmxa1
Tarquinius
Mountain Sage
Defcon5
Makahlua

Current Voting (by spaceship team)

alexman: 3
ZargonX: 1

Total votes: 4 of 7

vmxa1 · September 26, 2003, 01:21

I did not get to look at all of our games, as I was out most of yesterday, so great job Alexman. I will try to do a respectable job with your start.

vmxa1 · September 26, 2003, 15:55

Ok I got my main PC back again with one 512MB stick of mem replaced. So I will see if that cures my problems. I had to download this for this pc. So far mem/vid and sound card replaced, not a good sign.

alexman · September 28, 2003, 13:36

Summary
Continued expanding and getting ready for first strike against neighbor. In 550, Military is positioned to declare war on Japan immediately. Suicide galley discovered new continent, yielding lots of gold and two scientific civs to boost tech rate. We are already in the Middle ages.

Expansion
After Monarchy, Mecca became a 4-turn Settler pump. Damascus and Medina continued to pump Workers every 2 turns. 9 cities in the first (4) RCP ring. No rush expanding outwards because we're planning to get more room by force. Our empire in 550 BC: 19 Cities (+1 settler), 62 polulation, 31 Workers.

The tech race
Continued gifting all technologies and this block of turns it finally paid off: We got Literature, Construction, Philosophy, Code of Laws, and Map Making from the AI. Purposly delayed getting Currency to give a chance for the AI to get Construction (and to save gold for our upgrades). Entered Middle Ages in 590 BC. Babylon and Black Land have Feudalism and Monotheism (their free techs), so we are researching Engineering.

Military
Gradually upgraded all Warriors to Swordsmen and started building Horsemen. Our worker force (29 native plus 2 slaves) converted many forests into horsemen. Our army in 550 BC: 15 Swordsmen, 11 Horsemen, 4 Spearmen

Infrastructure
Many Temples, 3 Barracks, 3 granaries, Forbidden Palace is half-way done. Building Courthouses after Temples in cities outside first RCP ring. Starting to build Libraries in non-barracks, non-Granary first-ring cities.

Exploration
Got extremely lucky with one of our two suicide galleys, which survived three turns in the ocean, and sank on the fourth, but only after being seen by India. India knew writing and had contacts with Babylon and Black land. That continent was backwards (India didn't know Masonry, Babylon didn't know Alphabet), but they had some gold. We quickly brought them up-to-date in tech so that they can help in our fast spaceship quest. After we capture the Great Lighthouse in Kyoto, we will build more suicide galleys to find the rest of the civs.

Future plans
Conquer Japan with Swordsman, keeping horsemen as a reserve and military police. Japan has Great Lighthouse, so after we conquer Kyoto, send more galleys to discover more civilizations. Move Palace to former Japan. After we get Chivalry (probably from the AI), attack America with Ansars, and get GA with two cores set up. We will have to delay our scientific progress to save some gold for Horseman upgrades, but we will use that period to build Libraries.

Attached is a zip with the timeline and the save.

alexman · September 28, 2003, 14:48

Here's a screenshot, although I think we're past the point where a screenshot can tell the story.

Jaybe · September 28, 2003, 15:33

alexman, where do the curvy borders come from? I cannot find it anywhere in the last year of files at Poly (searching for "border").

Just never mind.... Found it at Civilization Fanatics' Forums > CIVILIZATION III > Civ3 - Creation & Customization > Graphics Modpacks > New "curved" borders

Mountain Sage · September 29, 2003, 06:46

My post (it's hard after Alexman's...)

2150 BC – 550 BC

Our goals: rexxing and start the military build-up.
By 550 BC our rexxing is over: 19 cities. We will add more cities after the Japanese-Americans wars. Next goal: bringing Mecca and Damascus to size 12 (Wonders).
Military build-up: 1st pruning war (Edo, Osaka, Kagoshima vs. Japan) with upgraded Warriors.
2nd pruning war (Miami, SFrancisco, Washington, Philadelphia vs. America + Oracle) with Swordsmen + Horsemen.
Start of the wars: after Republic (1 Spearman/city left); al warriors upgraded (1’120 gold needed, 506 so far). This is (also) why we are going for the Glibrary.

1250 BC: Monarchy in 10 turns; +2 gold/turn; 9 cities.
1225 BC: Warrior in Mecca, Worker in Baghdad, Warrior in Kufah.
1200 BC: Temple in Basra, Barbs encampment destroyed (+25 gold); Fustat founded.
1175 BC: Damascus temple, our Palace is more beautiful... Hippo founded south of the isthmus. Traded Polytheism with the Americans for Map Making and World Map, offered it to Japan (now Polite) and for 27 gold and World Map with Carthage.
1125 BC: Mecca Warrior.
1075 BC: Damascus Warrior, Najran and Kufah Settler, Basra Warrior.
1050 BC: Medina Settler. The Great City of Barad-Dur completed the Pyramids.
1025 BC: Monarchy. Literature in 19 turns.
1000 BC: Mecca Settler. Oracle as pre-built to the GLibrary. Aden founded.
975 BC: Baghdad and Basra Warrior. Khurash Temple. Traded Monarchy with America for Code of Laws and 27 gold. 3 embassies for 118 gold.
950 BC: Road to Spices completed.
925 BC: Yamama founded.
900 BC: Medina Settler. Damascus Galley. Khurasan Warrior.
875 BC: Muscat founded.
850 BC: Medina, Baghdad Warrior.
825 BC: Najran builds Galley. The American finished the Oracle. Mansura founded.
800 BC: Kufah Settler, Fustat Worker.
775 BC: Bukhara founded. Traded Monarchy for 25 gold and World Map with Carthage.
750 BC: Aleppo founded.
730 BC: Khurasan and Medina build Settler. Fez founded.
710 BC: Contact with the Germans (SW). They are isolated. Traded Alphabet for 48 gold.
690 BC: Aden produced a Galley (will go E). Shiraz founded.
650 BC: the Black City of Isengard completed the Colossus.
610 BC: Merw built.
570 BC: our NW Galley was lost in a tempest.
I might have missed to mention some Warriors built.

13 Workers, 28 Warriors, 4 Spearmen, 2 Galleys.
506 gold +14/turn. Republic in 17 rounds. GLibrary in 13 rounds.
19 cities. America 10, Carthage 9, Japan 7, Germany 6.
2 techs advance vs. the Americans (closest).
World ranking: 1st.

Mountain Sage · September 29, 2003, 06:47

And the pic:

vmxa1 · September 29, 2003, 12:23

Well I was tempted to not post anything after seeing Alexman run. I then figured everyone could use a laugh, so here it is:

1225 Mecca starts archer, Kufah starts warrior
1240 Medina starts settler. Najran starts temple
Basra starts barracks (this is becaus I figued
Uncle Sam would attack here eventually).
Found Aden after escort busted the camp.
I really need the 25 gold.

Ok here is the reason I posted this pile of crud. I had the blocker in place and saw Carthage send a settler team out and get killed by a barb horseman. I had the conscripted warrior attack and kill the 1 hp barb. I figured it would come after him anyway.

1175 Kufah starts temple, conscript bust camp
1150 Mecca starts settler, Damascus start colossus
Medina switch to temple
1075 start Philosophy at 60% Trade for Map
1025 switch to galley Damascus, Najran start colossus
Mecca start Horse, Kufah start Horse
Medina start settler
1000 Khurasan start barracks
925 Found Yamama and start temple, research Code of
Laws
900 Damascus start worker upgraded a warrior
850 start Lighthouse in Damascus
825 found Muslot
730 start barracks in Anjar
690 Medina start FP
670 found Mansura, researching Lit
650 tradeMonarch for cash to Abe and Carth
630 killed settler team with swordsman (Japans)
near Mansura. I could not pass this up and they
several cities near that the horses can pillage.

I started to have fun here and realized I had gone too many turns. I had made peace with out doing anything other than pillage.

vmxa1 · September 29, 2003, 12:27

Whoops forgot to name it properly:

ZargonX · September 30, 2003, 01:08

Well, didn't get contact with the other continent like Alexman, but I did start to deal with the Japan problem...

1175: Traded Poly to Carth. for MM + WM + 20 g.
-Traded Poly to US for WM.
-Mecca starts settler.
-Damascus starts galley
-Narjan starts warrior
-Khurzan starts horse.
1100:
-We learn Literacy!
-Narjan switches to harbor.
1075:
-Basra starts a granary
-The Black Land builds the Pyramids

1050:
-Mecca starts a horse.
1000:
-Khur starts a worker.
-Med starts a settler
-Kuf starts a temple.
950:
-Mecca starts a horse.
-Fust starts a temple.
925:
-I traded Monarchy to someone (stupid lousy notes...) for COL + WM + 20g
-Damascus starts the Collosus
-Kuf starts a horse
-Khur starts a granary
-Aden is founded
875:
-Spices are hooked up!
-Mec starts the Hanging Gardens as a prebuild.
-Med starts a horse
-Anj starts a spear
775:
-the US builds the Oracle
-Med starts a library
-Yammama founded
-Narj starts a warrior
730:
-Sell COL to the stupid Japanese for 30g +WM
710:
-Kuf starts a library
-Bas starts a library
-Sell Lit to (someone...) for 30g and WM
690:
-Nar starts a temple
-Aden starts a temple
650:
-Sell Lit to Carth. for 20g and a WM
-Also sell them Mon for the low, low price of 8g
-Oh, I also invade Japan with a division of horses and swordsmen. Edo is taken.
630:
-Ans starts a courthouse.
-Yam starts a temple
610:
-The Black land builds the Collosus.
-Damascus switches to the Great Lit.
570:
-Osaka captured. Forces prepare to regroup for the thrust to Tokyo.

ZargonX · September 30, 2003, 01:10

And the save...

550 BC

ZargonX · September 30, 2003, 01:13

So, I apologize for the poor quality of my notes... I tend to get a little into the game and forget to write down a lot of important deatails

Some things that happened that I didn't bother to date:

-Lost my exploration galley to a storm of 3 barb galleys in 2 turns.
-Carthage is blocked off at the chokepoint, keeping us nicely separated.
-The Japan invasion was mostly because they kept falling behind in tech and weren't doing me much good, and Chiv isn't that far away in the grand scheme of things. At the rate the invasion is going, the 6 swords and 3 horses available should easily be able to take Kyoto, and then either sue for peace or continue onwards...
-Switched to Monarchy at some point in there, too

ZargonX · September 30, 2003, 01:18

And a screenshot...

Mountain Sage · September 30, 2003, 06:27

A question of strategy for our team:

Are we going to wipe out Japan (and later America and Carthage) or are we keeping some cities of them as 'Vassal States'?

Subsidiary question: where shall we put our Palace and FP?

Makahlua · September 30, 2003, 10:40

I knew as soon as Ansar was hooked up to the road network I could start upgrading my warriors to swords so I started making sure I had barracks available everywhere. Also I made sure I was getting some temples in especially in larger cites, so I would not need more than 1 or 2 MP there (all -new- units were going to be spearmen, so I could upgrade the warriors) Regarding what was said earlier about vassal states, I figured America would be the better to keep for that as Carthage and Japan seem to be lagging behind; so those swords will soon be pointed at Japan (insert evil laughter here). I'm looking at Kyoto as the probable best spot for an FP, unless we need it closer to the original core if we anticipate a palace jump to the other continent?

1200 BC- Fustat founded by gold in NW
1100 - traded Poly to America for Map Making; Damascus, Najaran and Khurasan have galley added to queue
1075 - Monarchy discovered; Currency selected as next tech (because I figure I'll be in Monarchy at least I finish off Japan, so why not let America research other things for me?

) research set to 40 turns until I get all the swords upgraded (9/1/0)
1050 - Barad-Dur builds pyramids
1000 - Aden founded along the river & coast in the SE
875 - Washington builds Oracle
850- Yamama founded in the North along the other river near Edo
730 - I found the perfect crossing SW of Carthage; holy crap it's Germany on their own isle! Traded Alphabet for 46g and their world map (which is just that isle heh)
670 - 1st swords division (8 vet sword) assemled in Yo' mama, er Yamama

and headed for Edo; 2nd Swords headed to assemble behind them. I have enough gold to upgrade the remaining vet warriors, so rate is now 6/4/0, with currency in 12 turns
630 - Isengard builds Colossus; 1st swords attack Edo, 2 units lost, 3 hurt - Edo razed and a slave gained (he'll join the jungle clearing group

)
610 - 2nd Swords (6 vet swords) assembled at Yamama will move to join the resting 1st Swords at the ruins of Edo
570 - Ha! I -knew- Japan would send a settler/spear pair to rebuild Edo - yay 2 more slaves for me

550 - bah why does this block have to end right as i'm getting warmed up?

traded poly + contact/germany to america for construction, code of laws and literature

also poly to carthage for 30g and a worker went ahead and traded contact/japan & Carthage to Germany just for brownie points (why let Abe get things from Carthage and Japan for it?

)

Summary:
Not too bad, though perhaps I should've built a couple settlers for that area between us and Japan earlier. I did try send a suicide galley north to go west from near Satsuma, but no luck yet - the galley spawning barb camp up there isnt helping either. Also discovered a one-tile island with a game forest and a fish off the east coast near Aden; I've dubbed it Avalon for now. I'll proabably need to swivel aound and trim America some after I get done with Japan but that might not be until block after next. I also might take at least the gap city from Carthage before that

13 cites, one settler in route; one under construction
Economy : 57g, 4 gpt, currency in 5 turns
Militatry: 13 swords in two groups of 6 vet swords each headed for Osaka with replacements to bring them up to 8-10 each being built; 15 spears on MP duty; 13 workers (8 native, 4 Japanese, 1 Carthaginian), 4 galleys exploring the sea borders looking for crossings and 3 warriors on barb/scout patrol

Tarquinius · September 30, 2003, 15:18

Nice job guys! I haven't found any time to play the block the last few days, nor have I time this evening. So unfortunately I cannot play the save this time

I will vote on your saves though, and I will play next block again, I promise

vmxa1 · September 30, 2003, 17:39

Quote:

Originally posted by Mountain Sage
A question of strategy for our team:

Are we going to wipe out Japan (and later America and Carthage) or are we keeping some cities of them as 'Vassal States'?

Subsidiary question: where shall we put our Palace and FP?

I suspect that will depend on the block that is chosen for the round after this one. If anyone kills them and we chose theirs.......
I would rather not keep all the civs around, but when to eliminate?

Tassadar500 · October 1, 2003, 00:22

Discussion and voting begins

Mountain Sage · October 1, 2003, 06:58

OK, I'm the first one to vote:

vmxa1: I know it's hard to post after Alexman. Could you give us some statistics next time about the end of your 30 turns. This would be helpful.
ZargonX: not bad at all, but not many cities. At least you went for some Wonders...
Makahlua: interesting, but only 13 cities?
Alexman: the best, but two questions? Why not grab the GLibrary? (in my play, it's only 13 turns away) and why not research, or switch to, the Republic?

ZargonX, Makahlua and vmxa1: where is your gold?
Everybody else except ZargonX: no Wonders?

Generally speaking: why go to war vs. Japan now?
First of all, they are inoffensive and bottled up.
Then, let's them build the GLighthouse in peace.
Their lands are far away (=corruption).
America will be the bigger threat (but not right now).
As a Speceship member, I would have build the GLibrary (13 turns away), gone to Republic asap and upgraded then all Warriors to Swordsmen (I have 28). In the meantime, build city improvements like crazy (libraries, granaries, later aqueducts) and finish rexxing N.
After the Republic, fight two short wars (4-5 cities vs. America and 2-3 vs. Japan).
Build city improvements again like crazy.

My vote: Alexman (but...).

ZargonX · October 1, 2003, 10:00

MS: Just to answer a few of your questions-

-A large chunk of gold went to upgrading warriors. The empire is actually making a nice steady profit, but I had upped the science rate a bit extra over the last few turns to blast through currency so I could get some markets sooner rather than later.
-I'm 19 turns from the GL, if you switch Mecca over.
-Why attack? They were too far behind in science to be usefull, they weren't building any wonders, and it's no fun waiting 'till they have Samurai to start a war

alexman · October 1, 2003, 10:36

I'll vote later, after I have examined everyone's saves. In the meantime:

Quote:

Originally posted by Mountain Sage
Alexman: the best, but two questions? Why not grab the GLibrary? (in my play, it's only 13 turns away) and why not research, or switch to, the Republic?

Let's step back and remember our goal. In order to get the fastest possible spaceship launch, we cannot rely on a Monarch-level AI to keep the tech rate going. We are going to have to do most of the research ourselves, and feel really lucky if the AI contributes a few techs here and there. You don't need the Great Library when you are gifting techs to the AI. You can get all their gold and techs any time you want, by trading your research around. Also, we are already in the Middle Ages. Education is almost here.

As for the government choice, with just one luxury hooked up, a sizeable army, and many small towns as opposed to cities, Monarchy is actually better than the Republic. I raced to Monarchy as fast as possible, just to get out of Despotism, but now we can afford to wait until the AI does the research to get the Republic. The turns invested in researching optional technologies are turns lost from the spaceship launch date. That's why I didn't even research Literature, and I'm not planning to research Chivalry. Let the AI do it for us.

Quote:

Everybody else except ZargonX: no Wonders?

I didn't feel that a slowdown in expansion and military buildup was worth an ancient age Wonder. The Forbidden Palace, on the other hand, much more important than any Ancient Wonder, is half way done.

Quote:

why go to war vs. Japan now?
First of all, they are inoffensive and bottled up.
Then, let's them build the GLighthouse in peace.
Their lands are far away (=corruption).

Japan is a very easy target. Small in size, with no iron or horses connected. We will not hurt the AI tech pace much by destroying them, but we will get a location far away from our core to move our Palace. Remember, with the FP rank bug, it's best to jump your Palace to the most remote place in your empire! They have already built the Lighthouse, by the way. A Golden Age with two cores set up is very powerful. We need to get two cores going before we get Ansars, and Japan is the best place to quickly set up our Palace core, IMHO.

Makahlua · October 1, 2003, 10:39

I'm pretty much the same as Zargon, I have Damascus building a wonder, but right before the save I traded for Literacy (among other things) from America so it could be switched too, and built int eh next block. I did say even in my own report that I realized after the fact I'd been kinda slack in the settler dept. Why Japan now? Like Z said, I don't wanna fight Samurai

And after Osaka I can easily turn and prune America some too.

Looking at alex's post, 2nd core in Japan was exactly what I was thinking! We can still prune America a bit so they are a useful vassal, and Carthage is also bottled up nicely

alexman · October 1, 2003, 15:00

Makahlua

You might lose some swordsmen to the Japanese Archer stack next turn. You have many (too many?) spearmen, so you could have easily given your swordsmen a defensive escort.

Found Germany, a scientific civ, a huge asset for our spaceship goal. Make sure you bring them up to date on research when you reach the Middle Ages, so you can get their free tech. Good job bringing America up to date, but you could have gifted some techs to Carthage as well, especially since there are no immediate plans to attack them, so they can help with research.

Oops, civil disorder in your Wonder-building city (Damascus) hurts! A Wonder is usually not the best use for a city with a Granary. In fact, you have fallen a bit behind in your expansion, mainly because you didn't continue to use your Granary cities to produce Workers and Settlers. You built Muscat in a location with no immediate 2-food source. There is lots of unlcaimed land to the north.

Mountain Sage

Good job expanding, but you could use some extra Workers. The Northwest urgently needs irrigation. Instead of building extra Granaries (Basra, Kufah), you could have been using your Granary cities to pump extra Workers.

Given that our goal is a fast launch, researching Republic seems like a waste of time. The AI will eventually do so. You could be better off researching Currency. Why are you not using the AI to speed up the tech race? They are all behind, and likely researching one of the techs you already have.

As I explained in a previous post, the Great Library seems like a waste in this game for our goal. You can't even change that build to a Forbidden Palace, because it's in your capital.

vmxa1

Building a Wonder in your Capital, and a Forbidden Palace nearby, is not a very good idea because you rely on a leader to move your palace. If you don't get a leader, the Palace jump would require the destruction of a Wonder. Leaders don't come easy when you aim for a fast spaceship launch.

You too are researching an optional tech. Better let the AI do that for you, and you concentrate on getting to the next age.

You too built some extra Granaries, but could use some extra Workers. Usually Granary cities are good for Settler/Worker production. Build your Wonders and units in high-production cities without Granaries.

Your galley is close to discovering Germany. Cool!

ZargonX

Good expansion, number of Workers, and good job using the AI for research by bringing them up to date.

The war with Japan has progressed well. It's good that you don't have many units to finish them off right now. Delaying allows you to promote some units to Elite and maybe get a leader. If fact, you better get a leader, given that you can't abandon your capital with all those shields towards a Wonder.

You could have built some galleys for exploration. Suicide galleys are generally a good shield investment, even in the AU mod, even if they sink.

Kyoto will easily beat you to the Lighthouse, but that's OK, you'll get it anyway. :-) Hopefully Damascus will switch to a more useful Middle Ages Wonder.

All:
Did you know that units fortified in jungles have a chance of dying each turn? No need to fortify the unit at the choke point.

My vote: ZargonX

Dominae · October 1, 2003, 16:40

Can Scouts die from disease when fortified on a Jungle? I'm pretty sure Workers cannot, and I've always assumed it's the same deal for other non-combat units.

Dominae

alexman · October 1, 2003, 16:44

Do you really fortify your workers, or do you mean that they don't die when improving the tile? I have never seen workers or scouts die either, but then again I don't fortify those units in jungles anyway.

Dominae · October 1, 2003, 16:59

True, I rarely fortify Workers on Jungle, but the question remains: which types of units die from Jungle disease?

Dominae

vmxa1 · October 1, 2003, 17:28

Quote:

Originally posted by Mountain Sage
vmxa1: I know it's hard to post after Alexman. Could you give us some statistics next time about the end of your 30 turns. This would be helpful.
ZargonX, Makahlua and vmxa1: where is your gold?
Everybody else except ZargonX: no Wonders?

Generally speaking: why go to war vs. Japan now?
First of all, they are inoffensive and bottled up.
Then, let's them build the GLighthouse in peace.
Their lands are far away (=corruption).
America will be the bigger threat (but not right now).
As a Speceship member, I would have build the GLibrary (13 turns away), gone to Republic asap and upgraded then all Warriors to Swordsmen (I have 28). In the meantime, build city improvements like crazy (libraries, granaries, later aqueducts) and finish rexxing N.
After the Republic, fight two short wars (4-5 cities vs. America and 2-3 vs. Japan).
Build city improvements again like crazy.

Sorry I forgot to give a run down or a summary, well actually I did not know I was suppose to do it.

As to gold, I do not like to sit on gold with units that could be upgraded in the ancient age. So I was using it to upgrade units as I could afford it.
I tend to only go for Colossus and maybe GL, but I figured that the GL wouldbe useless in this game or nearly so. I would start some wonders as place holders, for libs or something, but that is all. Actually, I guessed that Rothi has set up a KAI called the black hans or some such and it would probably get most of the ancient wonders.
As I already started a war with Japan, what can I say. I see them as basically of no value to us in this game, unless they get early wonder, but I do not expect that.

vmxa1 · October 1, 2003, 17:39

Quote:

Originally posted by alexman

vmxa1

Building a Wonder in your Capital, and a Forbidden Palace nearby, is not a very good idea because you rely on a leader to move your palace. If you don't get a leader, the Palace jump would require the destruction of a Wonder. Leaders don't come easy when you aim for a fast spaceship launch.

You too are researching an optional tech. Better let the AI do that for you, and you concentrate on getting to the next age.

You too built some extra Granaries, but could use some extra Workers. Usually Granary cities are good for Settler/Worker production. Build your Wonders and units in high-production cities without Granaries.

Your galley is close to discovering Germany. Cool!

You may be correct about the wonder, but I see only one lux, so I figured HG would be a big help.
The FP is a placeholder for the GL. I now agree with you that it is not going to be all that worth while and I may not even get it. Funny thing is I never build HG.

I debated with myself for some time on the value of skipping all option techs. I decide to go for lit and skip the others. Use Lit to get Construction and maybe Currency. That may work or may not.

I think I am ok for worker and will soon be making more. All cities are connected and some of the jungle tiles are cleared. It is a close call.

vmxa1 · October 1, 2003, 17:45

Quote:

Originally posted by alexman
[Did you know that units fortified in jungles have a chance of dying each turn? No need to fortify the unit at the choke point.

I did hear that units could die in jungles and have seen it twice. I do not understand the mechanics of it, but I recall a game where a spear was left forted in my area for over 100 turns and never died. I finally when to war and killed, but it was in the jungle the whole time.
Do they have a chance to flat die or do they get ill and lose a hp and finally die, if not removed? I can't recall.

But that is the reason I founded my city in a spot that could prevent any pasing with out a border violation. No one would need to be forted in the jungle.

I will load all the games and post today.