Using Modern Units

[Bloody Monk]

I have played hundreds of SP games over the years, some conquest but most AC landing. In conquest mode, especially after learning about "Clads and Crooks" assualts, the games never got far enough to learn, much less use, the post Flight, advanced naval techs. I suspect there are others lacking experience with these units.

After looking over the 1946 save in the Silly Rules Game I realized how much I need help with these issues. Here is a link to that save for those who haven't seen it.
http://apolyton.net/forums/showthrea...54#post2507154

Anyone want to contribute ideas about how to use and when and what to expect with some or all of these units and Improvements...

a) SAM's and SDI
b) Does building a nuke make an AI first strike more likely??
c) Should you build an SDI shield before building nukes??
d) Aegis Cruisers...in a stack, how much protection do they bring??
e) How do you use Subs against a fleet??
f) Bombers -v- naval units...
g) land -v- carrier based??
h) cruise missle usage
i) I don't know what else, you decide.

Don't be shy; and thanks

Monk

[debeest]

Just a couple of thoughts:

Instead of SAMs, build fighters. They defend very well, they can move around to defend where needed, and they serve as excellent surveillance tools.

Never ever let nukes happen, but if you can't help it, then build SDIs. Remember that the AI will always know exactly which cities have SDIs, and will never ever launch a missile except at a city without SDI. Remember, too, that the SDI is too dumb to realize that an SDI will protect every city within three squares of the city with SDI, and will launch missiles interminably at the neighbor cities that it thinks are unprotected.

Know that the AI will stack up cruise missiles to attack whatever powerful ship you build; but if you stack a bomber on top of the ship, the missiles will end their turns next to the ship and you can shoot them all down on your turn.

No wonder the AI has to have so many ways to cheat....

[Bloody Monk]

Thanks, debeest.

Does the AI not use cruise missles -v- cities??

The Info: Combat thread asserts that Fighters do NOT scramble -v- missles. If this is true then it would seem there is a place for SAM's, yes?? What does game experience show??

Monk

[Six Thousand Year Old Man]

Some random thoughts:

SDI + SAM = 5x defense versus missiles. Not much use to build, since the AI never nukes cities with SDI and never uses cruise missiles vs a city. However, if you use cruise missiles on cities, they won't do at all well against cities with both SDI+SAM.

Nukes are an excellent weapon against ship stacks, particularly those which have AEGIS ships in them. That's the only time I use nukes (no fallout if used at sea).

AEGIS Cruisers can generally withstand several Cruise Missile attacks. BB+AEGIS stacks are therefore quite useful in drawing AI attacks. The AI seems to be able to build Cruise Missiles very fast, and if you send a BB within range, it's bound to be attacked. Generally you can get the AI to waste a dozen or more CM's per turn.

I seldom use subs. Too slow, and the AI sees them automatically.

I rarely need to build carriers, as the oceans are usually not very wide. Like BBs, they are an instant CM target... and Fighters don't 'scramble' from carriers (they should!).

Bombers, I find, aren't all that effective against BBs - generally it takes 2 or 3 to sink a BB, and that's not a good use of the shields. Generally I prefer to deal with BB's with my own BBs, or sucker the AI into attacking a city with a coastal fortress... the battlewagon may win, but it'll be greatly weakened. Bombers are even worse versus AEGIS ships. They're decent against almost anything else. The AI never builds carriers, so I have no idea how well they defend.

Fighters can occasionally sink DD's and do well against subs and Transports. Stealth Fighters are great against almost anything.

[Six Thousand Year Old Man]

One more thing I forgot:

A REALLY good defense for coastal cities is:
Coastal Fortress
SDI
SAM Battery
AEGIS Cruiser
etc...

AI Bombers and other air units have no hope against an AEGIS with doubled defense due to SAM This was crucial when I played the Alien scenario.

[Scouse Gits]

There are other units after Crooks & Clads ?


I like cruise against cities - particularly when they can be built in the heartland and fly themselves half way round the world to the target

Stu

[duke o' york]

I only ever use cruise missiles against those annoying late-game barb explosions you occasionally get if there are too many mountains or hills within your territory and you can't be bothered to improve all the terrain. Using a cruise missile on the central square of these stacks (the one where the barbs originate) has often led to messages with things like "Military advisor reports: 42 units killed".
It can save a lot of time with stealth fighters trying to take them out.
The paradrop between cities feature is fun, but I never use them other than that. I never use the amphibious assault ability of marines, though I do like them as "defenders with teeth".
I never use subs in my normal games, but I had great fun playing as the Germans in the WWI scenario that comes with the game. Other than that, I love using stealth fighters to blow the hell out of a city's defenders and then cover up all of the fortresses and defensive points before the partisans are released. They can then just be shunted into the newly-captured city at the end of the turn.

[-Jrabbit]

I have 2 major uses for cruise missiles.
1. Lead unit for ciity attack. No land unit withstands them, and they take out the city's best defender.
2. Scout/explorer. With its extended range, the CM is great for uncovering missing AI cities, spotting an approaching armada, etc.
BTW, my experience is that it takes exactly 2 CMs to down a battleship.

Air defense -- build a Fighter (stealth if ya got 'em) in every city the AI can reach. They can scout every turn, and are exceptionally good defenders.

Bombers -- They're expensive, but I still love 'em. Just remember to use your spies to ID those pesky fighters first. When I'm financially flush, I like to use alternate-turn bomber runs to empty a city, using them as placeholders over good defensive positions so the resulting partisans are poorly deployed. then my ground troops (or paratroops -- another fave) -- waltz in.

Submarines -- pretty useless without Magellan, but their fighting power makes them useful as an offensive extension of the coastal fortress for cities near the enemy.

The offense-as-defense...
In the late game, use fighting units to defend your cities against ground and naval forces. You can finance a fighter/sub defensive combo for a city by selling off the walls and CF. Add a cruise missile to act as your spy satellite/radar. Then build your missile defenses as needed.

Now I have a question for the group.
What do you think of helicopters? I find them ineffective on both offense and defense. Yet the AI likes them, and seems to use them with good effect against me.

And don't forget the blitzkrieg specialty item -- Howies!
Howies, howies, howies!!!

[duke o' york]

Choppers are useless, but the AI never crashes them. I reckon that they have their health bar reduced for a turn's worth, but then stay like that for as long as the AI cares to use them. I've only ever seen them on full, almost full or dead.

[Bloody Monk]

Thanks everyone!!

This is a lot to digest and I have to scoot off now so just a few quick hits...
a) If true, this is valuable news that AI do not use Cruise Missiles -v- cities. Is this the common experience??
b) Choppers?? Very expensive for little value. Does anyone have a useful tactic for them??
c) Tanks, Tubes, and Stealth Fighters are my preferred units too. There has been plenty of discussion about them and I hope we can avoid going there.
d) Cruise Missiles that fly half way round the world is an AI feature is it not?? We humans can't do that can we??

Monk

[-Jrabbit]

a) I've never seen an AI cruise missile vs. a city.
b) Not me.
c) Howies!!! I love vet tanks, but I love "ignore city walls" even more.
d) We can't do that. Don't know if AI have such range, but am confident others here do...

Enjoy!

[Six Thousand Year Old Man]

Helicopters are pretty useless, IMO. Too expensive for what they can do. IF they were only able to be attacked by air units OR IF they had better defense OR IF they had longer range OR IF they didn't expend all their movement after attacking, they might be worthwhile. As it is now, they can only readily kill units that cost fewer shields than they do... and the next turn, can be easily killed by almost any counter-attacker.

For 20 more shields, you can have a Bomber, which attacks better and is only vulnerable to air units.

I like Paratroops for the odd situation where the AI has some remote city unconnected by road/rail to other cities.

I almost never build Cruise Missiles. Perhaps if they were cheaper, I would. I mean, it's a 60 shield unit, automatically lost on attacking. I recognize Jrabbit's point about them taking out the AI's best city defender, but that defender is usually just 50 shields (Alpine/Mech). The only situation where I feel the CM would be useful would be where the AI city has plenty of Fighters, and is Howitzer-inaccessible. I suppose in that case, a barrage of Cruise Missiles would be the only way to go.

AI only seems to use Cruise Missiles against expensive units, not cities. This means BBs and CVs. (In ToT, it will also use them against expensive units like Plasmen/Magogs)

Marines should be useful, but they generally aren't. During the period of my life when I was tweaking rules.txt, I once set them up to ignore city walls... and I still didn't use them! They come in handy in a few scenarios...Pacific war scenarios mostly.

My question: Does anyone ever build DDs or Cruisers once BBs are available? By the late game, my navy seems to consist of BBs, AEGIS and Transports, with only 1 or 2 DDs remaining from the period between Electricity and Automobile.

[Elephant]

The other "Modern Units" are the Spy and the Engineer. In addition to unlimited "peeks" into AI cities on their RR network, spies can sabotage units, returning home for reuse. Drop an Engineer on a coastal tile that has or is adjacent to the AI RR network and build a city. Then bring in the loaded transports and there is no movement penalty for landing. Take down a whole continent in one turn. Remember to bring some extra pre-charged Engineers for "combat extensions" of the RR network and emergency forts. Engineers also ignore ZOC, so they can slip around blocking units. Also consider the strategic use of Pillaging to force cities (especially the capital) into temporary disorder for easier purchase by roving Spies.

Too much Early Landing/Conquest play really rots our "martial arts"...

[Carolus Rex]

Originally posted by Bloody Monk
b) Choppers?? Very expensive for little value. Does anyone have a useful tactic for them??

I don't recall the last time I built one... Two suggestions taking advantage of the feat that they need not land every turn:

i) Maybe good for picking off wandering barb kings in land not yet fully colonised (that also is a barb hot spot)? Don't know how many turns they can hoover, but...

ii) How about using them to prevent partisans from popping out when conquering a city? I normally use fighters for squares without road/railroad, but sometimes there are squares they can't cover without being lost...

Carolus

[La Fayette]

Over 10 rather long posts about modern units... not a single word about the most powerful of them all !
(thank you Elephant that you finally did mention it)

The VET SPY, brothers

With a nuke in her wallet, she's by far the most powerful unit in this game (don't forget that SDI defense has no effect at all against those wallets ).

... at the cost of 30 shields and with so many other uses

[gunkulator]

The AI will mercilessly steal your tech if you let them get spies. Too bad it rarely utilizes the spy's other abilities.

If the AI gets nukes, it will use nuke + paratrooper to take your cities.

For border and coastal cities, plant forests around the border/coast. This stops most AI incursions. Spies, Tanks and Mech Inf will get one move/attack but all the rest are sitting ducks. If you instead station units in forts along your border/coast, expect to attract a lot of bomber attacks.

If you have JS Bach, you can use it to home all your bombers, missiles and ships to a small set of high shield size 2 or less cities. The cities are safe from Democratic disorder due to the guaranteed 2 content citizens from JSB.

Vet Howies, Mech Infs and a couple bombers for cover are all you need to take out the AI at any time.

[Bloody Monk]

Originally posted by La Fayette
Over 10 rather long posts about modern units... not a single word about the most powerful of them all !
(thank you Elephant that you finally did mention it)

The VET SPY, brothers

Sorry you were bored, Brother. We all know and love vet spies. And you have posited frequently and eloquently about her virtues.

Perhaps by the time you read the entire thread you had forgotten that Spies were not asked about in the list. Spies are great; Howies are great; Stealth Fighters are great; Tanks are also great; but what about naval and air units?? And what about white goods that bear on them??

It is because I have relied so heavily on Spies, etc, that I find myself lacking experience with the issues listed. It may well be that these units are unnecessary. Still, wouldn't it be nice to learn something new??

The point is not whether Spies are wonderful but how they relate to the questions that were asked. Please.

Monk

[Bloody Monk]

Originally posted by gunkulator

If you have JS Bach, you can use it to home all your bombers, missiles and ships to a small set of high shield size 2 or less cities. The cities are safe from Democratic disorder due to the guaranteed 2 content citizens from JSB.

Thanks gunkulator and hello.

This is a wonderful idea about how to utilize these units. A mined Iron and a factory and you are in bidness.

Monk

[Bloody Monk]

New questions:

1) SDI creates an umbrella 3 clicks around its home to protect other cities from Nukes. Does that include the tiles that are not cities but are within the umbrella?? For example, will it protect a BB just outside the city??

2) In a similar vein...SDI also protects -v- Cruise Msl. Does this protection extend 3 clicks as well??

3) Can a Sub be protected by an Aegis stack?? If so, could this be used to position Cruise Msl. within range of AI cities??

Thanks and thanks again for keeping things on point.

Monk

[gunkulator]

Re Bach: I like to found a city on iron or peat and then mine & rail a nearby hill. Add factory + power plant and you have 20 shields - or rather, 20 units, that are disorder-free. It also gives you something to do with all those engineers hanging around after they've improved all your land. Plus you get to utilize those normally empty hill/mountain areas.

Re SAMs. I like to build a city on a hill near AI land (preferably across the ocean from them), build a SAM and barracks and plunk down some Mech Infs. This will attract bombers like flies. The AI knows not to nuke SDI cities but it never learns to lay off SAM cities.

Similarily with Subs: A close by coastal city attracts AI ships, especially battleships. Transform to a hill and/or build coastal fortress. Populate the city with cheap units and wait for the ships to attack. They'll win but be badly damaged. Use Subs to finish them off. Subs are incredibly cheap (60 shields I believe) but have the second highest attack of any ship, 10 vs. BB's 12.

[Old n Slow]

A spy will take out half of the target with successful sabotage -- thus she is my first choice to attack a BB.

I don’t use Choppers much as per the other’s thoughts -- very expensive, thus low marginal value. However, as far as Silly is concerned, the units with “extra” move capability are now more valuable, thus choppers become considerations. I’ve never used cruise missiles (and I think I’ve only used a nuke once.) Haven’t used fighters or bombers much either, since I usually have howies on line before these puppies appear. Hard to justify a bomber when the howie is cheaper, AND has a stronger attack (and with decent RR, a longer range.) Again, with Silly, we may find these units more attractive given the land units’ movement difficulties.

I think I’ve seen a cruise vs a city, but I also don’t recall it being used much. The ai definitely prefers them to start out vs BB, so I’ll often use a BB stacked with an Aegis CA for CM bait, then rotate the boats out & replace them with fresh units to flush out the ai’s attacks. In a game about a year ago, the ai was using a third of its economy building CM & wasting them vs four of my boats.

Once I have cruisers, I don’t build DD anymore; once I have Aegis Cruisers, I usually build them 2 or 3 to the BB’s 1. I prefer the cruiser because of the lower cost, great speed and ability to see everything -- and the Aegis is just all around nice. In fact since three A CAs are cheaper and faster than 2 BBs, I often stop BB production once I have A CAs to play with. And the sad truth is, I usually don’t have much of a navy because the need is not there.

I’ve rarely played the modern units either (especially in the last couple of years) in that the game seems to end too soon for their use. In the recent past when I have used them, I usually have four howies, and one each of tank, jeep, spy and rifle (just because they’re left over) per transport -- with two or three transports taking out a civ or continent.

I think I’ve only built subs once or twice -- their job as far as I’m concerned is to ferry missiles to their targets. I’m assuming that we can boat chain subs & missiles in a similar fashion to boat chaining transports & troops. Their attack factor has some merit, but the real reason why I’m not too keen on them is … they’re slow.

I’ve never built SAMs either -- a solid vet Jeep holds rather well against all kinds of things.

[Bloody Monk]

@ gunkulator

Another very interesting post. Thanks for sharing these ideas. And don't be a stranger...you might like to join one of the Succession Games.

@ OnS

Great response!! Thank you very much. We seem to have similar tendencies as to build orders.

As you mention the Silly Rules present special considerations about using land units. That's what got me thinking about the premise of this thread (and the relative lack of interest in hearing more posts about how Tubes rule).

I've never seen so much AI navy. Not having the ability to shipchain transports limits invasion possiblities until naval superiority is gained. And I'm at a loss as to how to deal with Aegis Cruisers, for example. Hoping they will all smash themselves on coastal fortresses seems a faint hope.

The use of a spy or two to sabotage a ship is very useful information. And I can see that building BBs is not as useful as Aegis, especially where the AI has built coastal fortress. ( I've used BBs in the past as modern versions of Ironclads to bash down a city.)

Monk

[La Fayette]

Originally posted by Bloody Monk

The point is not whether Spies are wonderful but how they relate to the questions that were asked. Please.
Monk

If you admit that they are wonderful, I can answer your questions :

a) SAM + MechInf = Very nice protection against bombers (though vet fighters with a slight border of red are much more romantic)
SDI = cannot be destroyed by sabotaging, contrary to ALL other improvements; protect ALL squares in a radius of 3.
SAM + SDI + MInf = protects even against vet stealth bombers

b) No, never noticed that

c) If the AI has nukes, it will nuke you either you nuke it or not. SDI is a question of gold, city size and timing: if you are rich, willing to take your time and owner of big cities close to the AI, then build SDI everywhere. If your core cities are safe and you are busy rolling over the AI with 150 howies, one SDI here and there is all you need.

d) AEGIS are strong against both bombers and cruise missiles. I happen to stack them with transports when a shipchain cannot be established in time. But I usually build no Navy in the endgame: costly and fragile. I very much prefer to own MANY transports, build shipchains where needed and lose an empty transport now and then.

e) Subs are so slow that I never send one to the open sea. Only use (combined with vet spies): stay hidden inside a coastal city and destroy BB and AEGIS after the spies have reduced them to yellow or red.

f) Big waste of money IMO: either the bomber loses against an AEGIS, or is destroyed by a fighter next turn.

g) I haven't built a carrier for ages: costly, slow and fragile.

h) I build some for scouting on rough terrain without roads oor RRs. I build many, for fun, if I am very rich in the endgame (I finished my first Rome scenario as Seleucid with a "feu d'artifice" of 200 cruise missiles against remaining Egyptian units ).

i) A young and rather pretty woman with a funny handbag. The lady is now inside the big city protected by SDI... BAOUM!

[Six Thousand Year Old Man]

Originally posted by Bloody Monk

I've never seen so much AI navy. Not having the ability to shipchain transports limits invasion possiblities until naval superiority is gained. And I'm at a loss as to how to deal with Aegis Cruisers, for example. Hoping they will all smash themselves on coastal fortresses seems a faint hope.

The use of a spy or two to sabotage a ship is very useful information. And I can see that building BBs is not as useful as Aegis, especially where the AI has built coastal fortress. ( I've used BBs in the past as modern versions of Ironclads to bash down a city.)

Monk

For Silly Rules - dealing with the AI navy is simple. Wait for the inevitable 20-ship stack to form, then nuke it (kills all ships on adjacent squares, too!). Presto, naval superiority.

The irony is that I never use nukes on cities, only on ships, and the AI does the opposite.

Using spies & subs to sabotage BBs is a good strategy, and one I haven't tried.

BBs are wasted against cities with coastal forts/Mech inf. A Bomber would do better, generally, or of course, Howitzers. Better to use them to knock out AI units alone on coastlines, or move them into the city as either a super-defender or Partisan-killer.

[Six Thousand Year Old Man]

I didn't mention carriers, which deserve a thread of their own, really.

The short answer about carriers is that they aren't worth building in the game as it is normally played. They're an expensive CM magnet that doesn't defend as well as a BB. Rarely are coastlines far enough apart that AI cities are out of Bomber range. Fighters don't scramble from Carriers (really, when facing air attack, the Fighters should defend as they do in a city).

The AI never builds them, and if gifted carriers, it doesn't know how to use them (treats them as an offensive unit )

I've spent a lot of time trying to devise ways to make Carriers relevant, without much luck. Only a few scenarios manage to achieve this.

[Bloody Monk]

La Fayette

You do your namesake proud. Your very rich and detailed response is brilliant. Thank you!!

And I agree. The ever beautiful spy with the 'special purse' is very effective.

Monk

[duke o' york]

Can any of the scenario wizards tell me if the "scramble to defend" ability is hard-coded as only relevant to ac ity, or if it's a flag that could be applied to carriers and airfields too?
Although the AI probably wouldn't notice any difference with this, the human player might find it makes things more interesting at sea and gives the carriers a more useful role. (Though from what I've heard, most MP games don't reach Flight )

[Six Thousand Year Old Man]

Originally posted by duke o' york
Can any of the scenario wizards tell me if the "scramble to defend" ability is hard-coded as only relevant to ac ity, or if it's a flag that could be applied to carriers and airfields too?
Although the AI probably wouldn't notice any difference with this, the human player might find it makes things more interesting at sea and gives the carriers a more useful role. (Though from what I've heard, most MP games don't reach Flight )

I don't think 'scramble to defend' can be made to affect carriers. And even if it did, you'd need some kind of fortress flag, too, or the carrier and all the planes on board would be lost if the scrambling fighter lost...

I've seen carriers given the AEGIS effect (double defense vs air attack) to simulate the fighter defense. Better, but a long way from being 'right'.

If one wanted to make carriers really relevant, I think the way to do it would be to create cheaper air units for the AI (so CM's wouldn't only be used on BBs/CVs) and of course, create maps with more ocean, so that invasions are more vulnerable. Nothing beats a carrier full of fighter planes for scouting out AI subs, etc.

[Elephant]

I'm interested in the sub-CM chain. Has anyone tested that for continuous movement like the transport-freight chain? Does it work the same? If the CM flies off on recon and comes back with some "movement points" unused, can it still chain with MPs remaining?

[Bloody Monk]

Did some testing to clear up some of the remaining questions.

1) SDI
--protects ALL squares in the 3 click umbrella -v- Nuke (even ships at sea)
--Cruise Msl -v- city square doubles defense value of best defender
--Cruise Msl -v- unit within 3 click umbrella = no shield effect

2) Subs
--can be "stacked" under another ship for better defense
--CAN shipchain Missles just like transports.
--unused movement points do not carry over if it "lands" on a Sub. If the Msl is left in open sea and a Sub enters that tile, the Msl is picked up WITH remaining movement points.

New Question

What about Airbases?? How does their defense work?? Do they offer any special defense advantage -v- air or Msl attack??

Monk