March 9, 2004, 08:09
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#301
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King
Local Time: 14:15
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1710AD: Payment Day
Smoke-Jaguar really wants to have Mao sacrified on his altar…
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The Mountain Sage of the Swiss Alps
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March 9, 2004, 08:10
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#302
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King
Local Time: 14:15
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1710AD: economics
Never forget where gold comes from, and where it goes…
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The Mountain Sage of the Swiss Alps
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March 9, 2004, 08:11
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#303
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King
Local Time: 14:15
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1710AD: military
… and more assorted units (especially cruisers and battleships).
I ended the game at this stage. With a 2-techs lead and China soon destroyed, I have other projects in mind, crazy ones, as usual…
Could somebody else post a nice game?
And what about conquest in the previous one? Have I become the only bloodthirsty Civ player around?
And for his brilliant military mind, MS was promoted veteran 
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The Mountain Sage of the Swiss Alps
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March 9, 2004, 13:23
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#304
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Deity
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MS, beautiful game, and I'm still playing it. The RNG of RL has not be kind to me recently. But that military in at the start of the game was better than mine:
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You just wasted six seconds of your life reading this sentence.
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March 9, 2004, 13:25
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#305
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Deity
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And the territory:
No wars (that I started )
The numbers are the cities that I settled, in that order
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You just wasted six seconds of your life reading this sentence.
Last edited by Krill; March 10, 2004 at 14:43.
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March 9, 2004, 14:10
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#306
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Deity
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MS I was shocked to see the post with about twice the allowed troops. Change of style or just a fling?
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March 9, 2004, 19:09
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#307
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Deity
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Quote:
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And what about conquest in the previous one? Have I become the only bloodthirsty Civ player around?
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No, but you are better at early warfare than me, so I bided my time. I'm in the process off killing off the Portugese (sp?). I've been in MONARCHY since I discovered Feudalism, and I kept up with the tech race, but I had to sell of the luxuries to do it, and iron to spain.
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March 9, 2004, 19:17
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#308
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Deity
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Yaxchilans' borders expanded to get me wines off the Spaniards, and I have Furs and dyes as well. The first cities that I placed went straigth towards the Spanish, to try to cut them off from the majority of the land.
It worked
MS, at the start I might have been in a better position than you, but your superior skills in war helps to make up the difference.
I do have a feeling, though, that this is not a normal Emperor level game.
The save from 50 AD If any body is interested enough to have a look. I can't be bothered enough to take notes, sorry.
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You just wasted six seconds of your life reading this sentence.
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March 9, 2004, 19:44
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#309
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Deity
Local Time: 15:15
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Originally posted by Thriller
This is what I don't understand - I've read so many times people talking about how easy Civ2 was to exploit, and how the AI was crap and easy to fool and the game was one dimensional - ie, get to the right tech and you win.
So what is it about Civ2 that makes you say it has better depth? Not a rant DS - a genuine question.
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All those things are true, which is why as a SP game I think the simplifications (and there are many despite what some people claim) in Civ3 are conducive to a good SP experience. However, as I have argued many times on these forums, it is Civ2's depth that is the main factor in the AI not being able to compete at all despite the bonuses. Civ3 has better AI for sure, but the biggest advances have come from restricting the human. Many long term serious civvers will tell you the same.
To truly understand the depth you need to play MP. The balance between more and better is exquisite in Civ2, and the combat model superior despite it's age. The govt system is better and more balanced, and trade more intricate, and espionage a factor in assaults/defence. There is so much versatility in the game that will never be present in Civ3, because that is the price of making a SP game where the AI can mount a challenge.
Ultimately I can only try to repeat this to stave off rabid Civ3ers: I think Civ3 is possibly the better SP experience.AI has improved, and there are some nice additions to the game. It's usually a challenge. Does this imply Civ3 is the deeper game? No, in fact the opposite is true, the challenge results predominantly from simplification that removes depth.
Will Civ3MP have the same following that Civ2MP does now in 8 years time? Will it hell. 
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March 10, 2004, 07:44
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#310
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King
Local Time: 14:15
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Quote:
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Originally posted by vmxa1
MS I was shocked to see the post with about twice the allowed troops. Change of style or just a fling?
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 dunno
I played some warmongering games in order to improve my 'battle skills'. One problem I had was that by not having experience enough in combat, my wars, offensive and defensive ones, were not played out optimally, so I needed more playing experience.
Now I realize that I tend to 'overkill', as with my 70+ Cavalry against poor Portugal, but I hate to get my war stalled because I cannot take the last two cities because I lack 3 or 4 more military units.
In C3C, the lack of resources, more than luxuries, makes you more aggressive. Unfortunately, I joined the trend/necessity.
In my last game, I took out Rome and Spain because they declared war on me, and I don't favor half-hearted mesures any more. I would have taken them out eventually, since being on the same continent they would have declared war on me anyway.
Just to put some balm on your wounds, I still remember that once upon a time I was 'poly's most ardent peacenik. I will try to play such a game again, but for the time now I'm on Sid level, honing my skills at micromanagement and diplomacy. So there is still some hope...
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The Mountain Sage of the Swiss Alps
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March 10, 2004, 19:30
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#311
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Deity
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Ok, I finished the game.
It took a while.
32 hours, 15minutes, 50 seconds.
I won by domination, after building a couple hundred tanks and eating the portugese, China and the Dutch, in order. I did it the normal way, but with about a 10 tank armies and 3 infantry armies. None were combined arms. I took out every body with superior numbers and technology, which was pretty easy, seeing as I was in the modern era, rushing temples to increase land area, and nobody else had tanks (I think).
The save, the turn before I won:
(Please comment/complain/be disgusted at my tactics)
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March 10, 2004, 19:33
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#312
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Deity
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The histograph is weird, though:
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You just wasted six seconds of your life reading this sentence.
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March 16, 2004, 15:19
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#313
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Prince
Local Time: 10:15
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Join Date: Jun 1999
Location: Hoboken, NJ, USA
Posts: 894
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HtL at Emperor from Mountain Sage’s Dutch Start
4000bc – Worker scouts from hill, Settler NW for coastal river w/hill, 2 forests, 2 cows, 1 bonus grass. Plan 2 warriors, then decide Settler or Granary.
3600 – Finish mine, start road.
3550 – 2nd Warrior, decide 3rd as MP. 2nd warrior then finds barbs ESE.
3450 – Seljuks force worker to hide.
3400 – 3rd Warrior ready (start Settler); should 2nd Warrior attack? No, exploration more important, so head for the mountain to the east.
3350 – Seljuk trashes mine and road (worker cries).
3300 – Seljuk killed attacking Amsterdam (worker cheers).
3250 – 2nd barb village adds 3 Jutes to the mix, so we have 5 wandering around nearby. Fortunately they don’t attack our warrior.
3200 – 2nd Warrior spots blue border.
3150 – Single Jute waited to attack Warrior 2 on a mountain, still almost killed him.
3100 – Sumeria! We are –3 techs with nothing to offer. Amsterdam grows to 4 and generates first Settler. Must escort! Go east. Warrior 2 returns to mountain lair to heal.
3050 – 2 Jutes move to block Settler+Warrior. [2 Jutes? Sounds like Brooklynese…]
3000 – Warrior Code, start Wheel.
2850 – Settler founds Rotterdam 3 east Amsterdam after detour around Seljuks.
2800 – First Archer, start 2nd for Pest Patrol. Want Settler, want granary. Warrior 1 meets Portuguese scout sneaking between Sumer and the Sea. We’re –2 techs (Bronze & Burial).
2710 – Sight 3rd barb vill on coast NE Rotterdam. Note: Sumer has lots of furs.
2630 – 2nd Archer, time to go get Seljuks. Both archers march out into forest across the river from the targets. Warrior 2 generates 3 Marcomanni.
2590 – Seljuks conveniently attack across the river, promoting one archer. One Marcomanni attacks and dies.
2430 – Rotterdam 3rd Archer, starts Settler.
2390 – Watch Portuguese warrior kill Sumerian archer. Such a pity they’re fighting. 2nd Settler heads south to game with access to 2nd cow. Not the site I want, but 3 turns sooner and decent food. 4th barb vill 7 NE of Rotterdam.
2350 – Start road to link Amsterdam/Rotterdam. See Marcobarbs menacing Lagash. Warrior 2 shows persistent inability to learn, poking another beehive and getting 3 more Jutes. Change Amsterdam from curragh to worker due to more urgent need.
2310 – Founded The Hague SSE Amsterdam. Warrior 2 pays for his foolishness with his life (leaving at least 5 barbs around Lagash).
2270 – The Wheel, traded to Sumer for Bronze (-2 techs, Burial & Masonry). Portuguese have it already. Finally find a Portuguese border by a volcano far to the east.
2190 – First Curragh: RNS William.
2110 – Hague Warrior, road to Amsterdam, find odd long-legged beasts in the far east.
2070 – Warrior 1 repeatedly falls off the long-legged beasts, decides bringing them home is not worth the bruises.
2030 – Status: about to found 4th city, have Bronze+Alpha+Pott+Wheel+WC, 3 warriors, 3 archers, 1 curragh, 2 workers, Writing in 16t, 39gp, +0gpt.
1950 – Road links Amsterdam to Rotterdam. Founded Utrecht on hill south of Rotterdam. Four decent city sites, but only one on the coast for a seafaring civ? I’d like to put the 5th city on the coast north of Rotterdam. Curragh watches Sumerian archer dispatch a barb NE of Lagash. 2 barracks under construction (Rott&Hague).
1790 – Alert! Enkidu and 2 archers approaching!
1750 – No, the Sumerians sheered off. Curragh exploring Portuguese coast. Amsterdam finishes Granary. Tradeoff: 2nd cow to Amsterdam.
1710? – Sumerians demand 20gp (of my 39). [ grumble ] OK this time, since I’m too late to do an archer rush.
1675 – RNS William makes landfall NW of Portuguese Peninsula.
1575 – Writing (start Philo, 12t). Settler in Amst, heading for whale N of Rott, picking up escort at Rott. Henry gives Iron+Burial+60gp for Writing. [I’m easily pleased.] Gilgamesh gives Myst+24gp (but won’t give Masonry). Spot iron NE Rott up near where I wanted the 5th city anyway.
1500 – Oops. Sumerian settler is one closer to the iron!
1475 – Launch RNS Mary (2nd curragh). May have to attack Sumer to get that iron. We need workers to bring in that iron anyway. Hmm…we could build the city SW of the iron right now, coastal but no whale. MAKE IT SO! Gronigen founded.
1450 – RNS William sights a red border far north of home.
1400 – Plan: get Philo (and free tech, I hope), then launch a gaggle of Archers at Sumer (now 5 archers, 6 warriors hoping for upgrades, 2 curraghs). Meet Rome! Sell Burial for 30gp (Rome is –2 techs).
1375 – RNS Mary makes landfall on islet NW of Amsterdam after risky crossing.
1350 – Portugal demands 24gp; they can whistle for it.
1300 – RNS Mary, after 2nd sea crossing, finds Cuzco; trade Alpha for Masonry+6gp. Philosophy! Take Map Making for free! Start trying to figure out how to stay ON those long-legged beasts; sages claim they could be useful in war (possibly to reduce friendly forces).
1275 – Build Eindhoven across the ridge from the Sumerian horses (soon to be Dutch!) Drop research to 10% (Horses in 50t!) to generate cash for upgrades once iron comes in. Switch to Poly for higher trade value (some AI will research horses for us).
1250 – Lisbon completes Colossus (whatever that is). Our archers are gathering near Eindhoven as roadbuilding moves east.
1225 – RNS William sights Byzantine warrior, but this backward tribe has nothing to offer (-2 techs). The Portuguese figured out the long-legged beasts, and trade this knowledge (and 20gp) for Philo. Gilgamesh the Tightwad will NOT give Math for Philo…maybe we can beat it out of him.
1200 – Amsterdam finishes Temple and starts Harbor.
1175 – Our attack is ready to go; we offer trade for Math again as pretext for war. Oops. Cunning King made the trade. OK, “Math is too hard; we must kill them.”
1150 – Captured Lagash, losing 2 vet archers. No facilities, but caught one worker.
1125 – Killed 2 Sumerian archers moving to relieve Lagash. Most of my force is wounded. RNS Mary makes landfall north of the Incas but finds Rome already there.
1100 – Road links Iron to all cities! 1st upgrade from clubs to sharp edges. Archer kills Sumerian and becomes our first Elite.
1050 – First vet sword kills Enkidu on hill road west of Eindhoven.
1025 – Lost vet archer; Utrecht riots in protest.
1000 – Rotterdam riots (damn, that archer was popular!). [Failure to MM!] Road links Ivory (will be first lux once in our territory).
975 – Gang of workers building road thru hills to Lagash.
950 – Not enough force to take Ur, with vets and elites in the rear and regulars up front. First catapult built and duly tested on Sumerian slaves.
900 – Luck runs out for RNS Mary. Colony brings in Ivory to make those idiots forget that archer.
875 – Sumer seeks peace but won’t offer a damned thing for it. Our brave army is repulsed at Ur (killed 2, lost 2—including vet sword--promoted archer to elite).
825 – Repulsed again. Killed 1, lost vet archer. 1st catapult shot actually hit something (beginner’s luck!) [Am I attacking across an unseen river, or did we fail to make sacrifice to the God of the RNG?]
Status: Army licking its wounds. Looks like I attacked “betwixt and between,” too late for Archer rush and too early for solid Sword/Horse assault. Six cities including captured Lagash. This looks like a winning start, but a mismanaged start with not quite enough army for conquest and not quite enough development for non-conquest.
__________________
"...your Caravel has killed a Spanish Man-o-War."
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March 16, 2004, 23:37
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#314
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Emperor
Local Time: 00:15
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Quote:
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Originally posted by Hermann the Lombard
HtL at Emperor from Mountain Sage’s Dutch Start
May have to attack Sumer to get that iron.
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You mean, the Dutch start where the idea was not to go to war for resources? That Dutch start?
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March 17, 2004, 06:01
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#315
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King
Local Time: 14:15
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Quote:
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Originally posted by Hermann the Lombard
HtL at Emperor from Mountain Sage’s Dutch Start
2070 – Warrior 1 repeatedly falls off the long-legged beasts, decides bringing them home is not worth the bruises.
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 why would your warrior try to ride cows?
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The Mountain Sage of the Swiss Alps
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March 17, 2004, 08:29
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#316
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King
Local Time: 14:15
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Quote:
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Originally posted by Thriller
You mean, the Dutch start where the idea was not to go to war for resources? That Dutch start?
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Thriller,
Did you notice how many people just don't follow the guidances when it's a question of luxuries or resources? 
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The Mountain Sage of the Swiss Alps
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March 17, 2004, 08:42
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#317
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Deity
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I didn't so much as swat a fly.
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March 17, 2004, 13:19
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#318
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Prince
Local Time: 10:15
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Jun 1999
Location: Hoboken, NJ, USA
Posts: 894
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Quote:
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Originally posted by Mountain Sage why would your warrior try to ride cows?
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Damn! I just knew they were doing something wrong...or possibly they were doing animal husbandry and got caught.
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Quote:
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Did you notice how many people just don't follow the guidances when it's a question of luxuries or resources?
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Must have missed that in the guidelines...but in fact I didn't go to war for the iron, I just got my city down first by taking an otherwise sub-optimal location, location, location.
Any comments on what I did or did not do?
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"...your Caravel has killed a Spanish Man-o-War."
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March 18, 2004, 06:42
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#319
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King
Local Time: 14:15
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Feb 2003
Posts: 1,351
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Quote:
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Originally posted by Hermann the Lombard
Any comments on what I did or did not do?
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Nope, I woudn't dare. Besides, it looks you're having fun, that's the most important.
I just went to war (provoked!) in 340AD, a bit later than you and with a slightly better military... 
Just keep in mind it's supposed (well, was supposed) to be a relatively pacific game 
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The Mountain Sage of the Swiss Alps
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March 18, 2004, 12:37
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#320
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Prince
Local Time: 10:15
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Jun 1999
Location: Hoboken, NJ, USA
Posts: 894
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Quote:
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Originally posted by Mountain Sage
Nope, I woudn't dare. Besides, it looks you're having fun, that's the most important.
I just went to war (provoked!) in 340AD, a bit later than you and with a slightly better military...
Just keep in mind it's supposed (well, was supposed) to be a relatively pacific game
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Wouldn't dare??? When did that ever stop anyone on Apolyton??? Besides, I want to improve and often I don't know where I'm going astray. (And yes, I'm having fun!) Pacific game? I didn't think the Dutch got to the Pacific from the Indian Ocean... 
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"...your Caravel has killed a Spanish Man-o-War."
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March 19, 2004, 01:50
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#321
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Emperor
Local Time: 00:15
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Quote:
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Originally posted by Mountain Sage
Just keep in mind it's supposed (well, was supposed) to be a relatively pacific game
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Yes it was, until someone changed the rules on us
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March 19, 2004, 13:56
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#322
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Prince
Local Time: 10:15
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Jun 1999
Location: Hoboken, NJ, USA
Posts: 894
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Quote:
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Originally posted by Thriller
Yes it was, until someone changed the rules on us
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In fact, I seem to remember a very early message by our resident sage to the effect "the military option is in." There also seemed to be a certain, um, "potential for conflict" due to the distribution of certain resources...
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"...your Caravel has killed a Spanish Man-o-War."
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March 20, 2004, 03:01
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#323
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Emperor
Local Time: 00:15
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Posts: 7,544
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Quote:
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Originally posted by Hermann the Lombard
There also seemed to be a certain, um, "potential for conflict" due to the distribution of certain resources...
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Hermann..... 
Thou shalt not talk about strategic resource scarcity in this thread. Go directly to the AU Forum, do not pass go, do not collect Coal......
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March 22, 2004, 13:54
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#324
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Prince
Local Time: 10:15
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Jun 1999
Location: Hoboken, NJ, USA
Posts: 894
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Quote:
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Originally posted by Thriller
Hermann.....
Thou shalt not talk about strategic resource scarcity in this thread. Go directly to the AU Forum, do not pass go, do not collect Coal......
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Moi?
I didn't say the resources were scarce, merely that there was potential for conflict.
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"...your Caravel has killed a Spanish Man-o-War."
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March 24, 2004, 06:26
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#325
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King
Local Time: 14:15
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Feb 2003
Posts: 1,351
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Could somebody post a new game? I left Emperor behind for I while...
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The Mountain Sage of the Swiss Alps
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March 24, 2004, 11:27
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#326
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King
Local Time: 08:15
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Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Our house. In the middle of our street.
Posts: 1,495
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I'd post the game I'm playing, because I'm having a blast, but it's already up at MZO. Boot Camp VII. A rollicking, wonder-razing good time. Or maybe that's just my newfound black-hole-dark playstyle. 
Edit: Ha! Thanks vmxa1! I keep forgetting to bookmark it and have to google "mzo bootcamp" every time I want to visit. Note to self. Bookmark MZO.
__________________
"Just once, do me a favor, don't play Gray, don't even play Dark... I want to see Center-of-a-Black-Hole Side!!! " - Theseus nee rpodos
Last edited by ducki; March 24, 2004 at 13:42.
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March 24, 2004, 13:32
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#327
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Deity
Local Time: 10:15
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Oviedo, Fl
Posts: 14,103
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March 26, 2004, 03:46
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#328
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Emperor
Local Time: 00:15
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What's the concept behind the MZO Bootcamp thing, or is it just another "all play the same game and compare" type thing? I read some of the threads but couldn't really get the idea. Is it a modded scenario?
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March 26, 2004, 13:22
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#329
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Deity
Local Time: 10:15
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AFAIK it is not modded. I think the idea is to just play the same game and post some comments about it.
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March 26, 2004, 14:48
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#330
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King
Local Time: 08:15
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Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Our house. In the middle of our street.
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Like vmxa1, I think it's a non-modded comparison game.
__________________
"Just once, do me a favor, don't play Gray, don't even play Dark... I want to see Center-of-a-Black-Hole Side!!! " - Theseus nee rpodos
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