Are the Vikings too powerful?

chequita guevara · December 9, 2003, 13:16

The berserk unit is 6.2.1 and doesn't require a strategic resource, such as iron.The only other unit that powerful doesn't come 'till the end of the Middle Ages, when you get military tradition. It's a poweful enough unit to even take on rifleman. On top of all this, it can make amiphibious assaults, which more or less makes them immune to counter-attack, unless the ai decides to attack your ship, which isn't likely in that era.

I don't think the unit is warrented. In reality, the Vikings weren't the most powerful, toughest warriors in Europe. It's just that they mostly attacked unarmed, undefended settlements. When you're slaughtering defenseless monks, it's pretty easy to kick ass.

Yes, they conquered half of England, Normandy, and Sicily and Naples, but England wasn't really a country yet, France was undefended due to Charlemange's banning of castles for the nobility, and the Byzantines were having their asses hand to them on a plate by the Arabs and Turks and couldn't spare troops to defend its Italian possessions.

When the Vikings fought pitched battles, they lost as often as they won. They didn't conquer England (at least not until they were Francophied in Normandy for a few hundred years), failed in their invasion of Greece, etc. Compared to the Germans, who conquered half of Europe from the Romans, the Vikings were small potatoes.

I think the berserk should be changed. Make it a 3.2.1 unit with amphibious assault and it replaces the swordman. There is a reason the Scandinavians adopted more conventional methods of warfare during the middle ages.

vmxa1 · December 9, 2003, 13:22

There are fine as they are. The Ag trait will make other races look better to you. We have had a long time with PTW and the Vikes have not been a big problem.

chequita guevara · December 9, 2003, 13:37

I don't remember them from PTW.

asleepathewheel · December 9, 2003, 14:04

When PTW came out, it was thought that this would be a killer unit, but it hasn't turned out that way. A very nice unit, feared, but....And truly a unit that is only used properly in the human's hands. I have however seen them used in the middle ages scenario fairly effecitvely by the AI.

DrSpike · December 9, 2003, 14:25

They arre fine as it is.

Fried-Psitalon · December 9, 2003, 14:27

The Viking IS a powerful unit, but honestly, I called it this way from the early days and I stick with it now:

It is a powerful unit in a very specific environment, and hopelessly vulnerable in any other.

Berserks have to travel by galleys - CURRAGHS can sink galleys. Dromons eat them for lunch. If you have advanced berserks that use caravels, the risk is less, but curraghs and galleys can still be a significant threat and Dromons will always terrorize you.

Berserker boats can be sunk.

On land, you've got the Persian Immortal twice again. Six attack is great, but there are a *lot* of fast-attack units that tend to appear around this time, and they'll eat a Viking for lunch. Sure you can stack some pikes with them, but then you need iron, and Berserk+pike is a touch pricey for what is effectively one attack unit. I'll trade the two attack for another movement and a drop in price and call it a knight, thanks.

They're pretty good at counterattacking out of cities, I'll admit, but they're unlikely to get first strike against all the knights of that time.

So: Berserks, IMO, are extremely effective - but only in limited roles, making them a balanced UU for a balanced civ.

asleepathewheel · December 9, 2003, 14:38

I recall one specific war where I took on a fairly large viking nation with knights. Due to the movement, and good positioning, I was able to take out what I wanted while denying them for the longest time a berzerk victory. (and thus their GA) On grasslands and plains, the are toast. A decent enough unit, but more limited than most, as FP has eloquently noted.

Garth Vader · December 9, 2003, 15:14

I love them, but then I like playing small mass archipeligo, where almost all cities are coastal

You don't need a lot of them, build enough for a few galleys and use knights and pikes for occupation and clean-up.

I also noticed that the AI never attacked my ships.

Theseus · December 9, 2003, 16:11

There IS a strategy that potentially makes Berserks overpowering...

Hagbart · December 9, 2003, 17:06

Quote:

Originally posted by Theseus
There IS a strategy that potentially makes Berserks overpowering...

Which strategy?

The people of Europe feared the Vikings during their time because of the stories about them raging and pillaging.

In real live they were more traders than bezerkers.

Theseus · December 9, 2003, 17:31

Nothing but vet Archers and Spears, in droves. Drive for MGLs, but save them for Berserks and Pikes.

Unstoppable.

vmxa1 · December 9, 2003, 18:41

Quote:

Originally posted by chegitz guevara
I don't remember them from PTW.

Probably a good indication that they are not overpowered. If they were you would be seeing lots of tlak about it.
The 6 attack is nice, for sure, but that 2 def can leave them vulnerable.

Adjusting UU's is a very delicate task.

Arrian · December 9, 2003, 18:43

6/2/1 versus 4/3/3. Hmm. Gimme the 4/3/3, in almost every situation.

-Arrian

MrWhereItsAt · December 9, 2003, 22:37

They are 70 shields too - Almost double the cost of MIs. With fortified Pikes in size 6+ cities you end with an even match anyway...

Theseus · December 10, 2003, 00:59

Upgrades and Armies. Problem solved.

And I am not so sure about the defense modifiers during amphib attacks... this has never been cleared up.

Not that I think the original premise is on target... I think the Scandy are a pretty well balanced civ, and if anything a little weak; only in a few specific environmental circumstances, and only when handled to really max out their potential, are they conceivably out of whack.

(But it sure is fun when you can play'em that way!

)

ThaddeusAlexander · December 10, 2003, 02:35

I would be inclined to say that as a whole, the civ is fine. But as a UU, the berserk has become more feared in Conquests. Put 3 in an army with the attack bonus (now attack, what, 9?) and move of 2 rampaging across the land ... pretty scary.

And yeah they don't Iron but honestly, you need iron for defensive units to keep your berserkirs alive so in that respect, I think they need iron ... in a roundabout way.

MrWhereItsAt · December 10, 2003, 06:30

Well ANYTHING in armies is pretty dangerous, especially if used properly. Need I tell everyone about my Ancient Cav Army when the world seems to be almost totally without Iron?

One city of three spears defense every 4 turns. Simple as that. Almost never are the 6 MIs I bring with it needed.

Fried-Psitalon · December 10, 2003, 09:22

Uh... I dunno about you, but I'm not sure I want to risk my army on a caravel or galleon with the possibility of a boat getting sunk. You go right ahead though.

As for a berserk army on land, three words:

Big fat target.

Arrian · December 10, 2003, 09:50

Ancient Cav army...

4.3.3. against spears. Ouch.

I'm liking my med. inf army I put together last night. 6.3.2. Nasty, especially since it was going up against spears as well. Bad Persians! Bow before Grog!

-Arrian

chequita guevara · December 10, 2003, 12:29

Fortified pikes in a 7+ sized city are not a match for berserks, especially berserks in boats. The ai neither knows how to use berserks nor how to defend against them.

Snotty · December 10, 2003, 13:19

Longbows 2 point bombard needs to be taken into account. An essential part of any berzerk defense.

CerberusIV · December 10, 2003, 17:35

In PTW berserks were easy meat for knights on land. In one game one vet knight of mine took a 14 HP berserk army down to 3HP before retreating. If I had had another knight the army would have died there and then, as it was I killed it, and another one, later with cavalry.

C3C is a bit different as a 3x berserk army has defence 3 not 2 but I would still bet on a couple of knights to eliminate it on level terrain.

Berserks not in armies are relatively easy to kill with horsemen or even archers at a fraction of the price. Yes, you will lose units but you can replace them far faster.

The PTW AI used berserks amphibiously on relatively soft targets but the AI isn't good at hammering home massed attacks with any type of unit, unlike human players, so berserks are no different.

I do play with berserks substituting for MI, not longbows, so they come with feudalism and require iron. It doesn't seem to make much difference to the AI and is a slight boost to the human player although the AI's usually have chivalry anyway by the time I get feudalism.

Theseus · December 10, 2003, 17:50

Repeat after me: MIXED UNIT ARMIES.

Especially with C3C, for any land-based Berserk attack, I would would a 2xBerserk+Musket Army (8.5.2) in the vanguard.

Fried-Psitalon · December 10, 2003, 18:36

I don't think anyone's arguing that the Berserk doesn't have uses, Theseus- we're arguing that the unit isn't too strong. Judging by the fact that your very potent army example has another unit mixed in, I'd say that proves the point well.

Theseus · December 10, 2003, 18:57

Oh.

Kuciwalker · December 10, 2003, 20:16

If only you could have Berserks and Musketeers... wouldn't that make an 8.6.2 army

Paddy · December 10, 2003, 21:49

long live strong berserkers............ and bloody minded beer swilling crazy bastards from the scandanavian countries........

aaglo · December 15, 2003, 05:50

Quote:

Originally posted by asleepathewheel
When PTW came out, it was thought that this would be a killer unit, but it hasn't turned out that way. A very nice unit, feared, but....And truly a unit that is only used properly in the human's hands. I have however seen them used in the middle ages scenario fairly effecitvely by the AI.

Heh...

Well, if you didn't think that berserker wasn't a killer unit, you didn't play enough multi-player.

The proper use of this unit is to attack from the sea - never by land (unless you have some serious stacks of defenders with them). On open ground they are dead meat. And so they are as sole city defenders.

But I must admit, that the amphibious bonus that came with conquests (+25% attack strenght) made them quite strong. I managed to take down an english swordsman army defending London with one veteran berserker (this was the middle-ages scenario).

Fun unit - doesn't need to be changed. You should be afraid of them

Jaguar · December 15, 2003, 21:13

Quote:

Originally posted by Arrian
6/2/1 versus 4/3/3. Hmm. Gimme the 4/3/3, in almost every situation.

-Arrian

I'd take 6/2/1 in SP any day.

Theseus · December 15, 2003, 21:32

Me too... stacked with Muskets and Trebuchet.

Vicious.

/me PRAYS that Firaxis / Breakaway are gonna give him a little Army giftie in the patch.