How do you play Emperor and above?

planetfall · December 10, 2003, 11:01

I'm feeling dense and thick headed. What works at Emperor and above? Assume: 8 civs and barbs.

Things I have tried without success:
1. building 5 cities and then military with research low
2. building 8 cities and then military with research low
3. archer rush with 15 archers
4. horse rush with 20 horse

Problems:
A. AI goes for Monarcy and Swords first
B. By time I have some military I am usually 8-12 techs behind
C. My military gets creamed by medieval infantry
D. Usually have to pay protection to 1 or 2 civs before get military built up.

Starting capital build sequence:
1. city by water
2. warrior
3. warrior
4. barracks/granary
5. settler
continue warrior/settler build loop until 5-8 cities
add temple
build military units

City spacing 3-4 tiles. About 1 worker/city.

Ideas will be appreciated.

-- PF

alva · December 10, 2003, 12:11

I usually expand as long as there is room(preferably towards the AI), slowly building up upgradable units, once there is no more room, i either go for the biggest or smallest AI depending on the situation. (If the weakest has got some tech I can use i will often beat him up for a while).
-
I think your problem lies in the fact that you don't have enough cities to produce a decent amount of units before they become obsolete.
It all depends on the window of opportunity too though, the moment MI are coming along, IMO, it's better to wait until you have knights or at least MI yourself.

Cookie Monster · December 10, 2003, 12:37

So what do you mean by having a decent amount of cities? I find myself to be limited to 7-8 cities because room runs out. I usually play standard map, medium continents.

Aramis · December 10, 2003, 15:38

I play emperor and above to be humbled.

Stuie · December 10, 2003, 16:48

Don't waste your time with Barracks. Get the Granary ASAP and build settlers until the cows come home (or until you have a home near some cows).

I don't build Barracks until my REX is slowing down.

planetfall · December 10, 2003, 18:34

Stuie,

Barracks if near very aggressive AI, but usually granary. But at Emperor I usually can only get a few cities build before AI has me locked in.

In C3 and PTW the AI started to build from inside out, now with C3C the early builds tend to be more of "as close to the human" as possible.

-- PF

vmxa1 · December 10, 2003, 19:35

The start location is what determines what you can do. Even at Sid with a good start you can get 8 cities, if you want them.
If you have a bonus food in your radius and a forest or a mined bonus grassland, you can build a granary and rex at the rate that suits you (std map).

Do you have any useful traits such as AG or Ind with which to build up quickly?
Do you have a lux that can be linked in the first 3 or 4 cities?
I like to make warrior, warriro, warrior. The second warriro stays home to do MP duty so that next citizen is not unhappy.
Now I may have to go with a 4th warrior if I do not have a lux to hook up to have the two MP effect.
Now things are up in the air, do I have that lux? Do I see any huts? Any civs in sight? What is the terrain? Mountain, ice, ocean?
Do I know pottery yet? Can I get it soon (a civ nearby that starts with it).
I want to get the granary up and start making some settlers. I want to find and found a city that will pump out workers and some settlers and maybe soon relieve the capitol from some of the task. I want to get a camp started by the 3rd or 4th city.
If I get the food production, I maybe able to think about a wonder in the capitol, did I find a second lux per chance?
Lots of variables to try for a road map.

vmxa1 · December 10, 2003, 19:47

Originally posted by planetfall
"3. archer rush with 15 archers
4. horse rush with 20 horse"

These sound good, but don't mean much in the abstract. 15 archer, going against what? Did I get them and go against spear and warriors and archer? Great, swords/MI, not so great.

"Problems:
A. AI goes for Monarcy and Swords first
B. By time I have some military I am usually 8-12 techs behind
C. My military gets creamed by medieval infantry
D. Usually have to pay protection to 1 or 2 civs before get military built up."

Yes they will go for those swords. If you get 12 techs behind that should not happen with a decent civ and start location. I posted a game in response to Englan on Emp where I was never behind in the tech race at PTW and I don't consider myself as an expert.
Others would have done better. In C3C it si harder right now with the gpt bug and corruption.

If you make a good pump and a good camp very early you will not fall to far back. One thing I like to do is to cripple the near civ very early. If you can catch a settler team and bust it, you get those two workers and make them stumble. They will come at you with mostly warriors and yoy can handle them. Soon they will want to have peace and you may even get something out of it. Now they are seriously hurt from the lose of the settler and all the units they threw away. I say threw away as they are attacking you in your city/ This is not required, but can be a big boost.
When the next civs show up, you are hopefully making units in that camp and they are not going to try to extort anything.

"City spacing 3-4 tiles. About 1 worker/city."

This should be fine in most case. I like a few more worker, if I can get them as slaves.

Jeem · December 10, 2003, 20:07

I'll generally expand until I can't go any further. This often means missing out on the earliest wonders and having an incredibly weak military in the very early stages.

The AI tech-trading at emperor level isn't as bad as it was in PTW. I think that by removing expansionist from many civs helps to keep the enemy civs from running away from you in the tech race, as does the moving of trading contact till printing press.

The Polytheism/Monarchy route is now chosen much more by the AI, so no Polytheism swaps to get you back into the tech race. However, I find that by going for Philosophy, you can haul yourself right back into it (philosophy + free tech will usually get you on par with the rest).

Early wars at Emperor are not easy. Even the Aztecs are hard pushed now that Jaggy Warriors are up to 15 shields a piece (why?????). At emperor level, the early game is all about survival.

Doc Tsiolkovski · December 11, 2003, 06:32

There seems to be nothing wrong with everything you describe, planetfall. The building sequence is correct (Warrior/Warrior/Granary by default; changes where aplicable), and about 8 cities is what you usually get on Emperor/Standard map. Maybe you could build a little denser; OCP is for Monarch and below.

But what is wrong is being 12 Techs behind...
IMHO, the big diference from Regent/ Monarch to Emperor (and Demigod/ Deity; Sid - how should I know

? ) is:

Trade. And Diplomacy.

You *must* trade for Techs for a long time. You can research for yourself, to get something you can offer, but especially in the Ancient Age, the majority of the Techs should come by trading.
And looking at your building sequence, you don't seem to care much about contacts and exploration.
No Scouts, no Curraghs

Tiberius · December 11, 2003, 08:26

I usually start with a granary in the capital (after a few warriors) and then settlers and workers. It is important to have enough workers, to optimize your shield and commerce output. In the following cities I build barracks (and then units), granaries (near wheat, cattle or floodplains) or temples (for early culture and border expansion, especially in border cities). I start then building units with all my barracked cities. If I start falling back in science, I attack a neighbour civ. The AI simply can't defend itself against a concetrated assault of 15-20 archers, for example. I take two or three cities, then make peace for techs. By that time, even if your army will have shrinked to a few archers, the AI will pay for peace. I build up again and extort tech from another neighbour. In short time, I am the biggest civ and have only weak neighbours. At this point I start building infrastructure (markets, libraries) and prepare for a later mounted assault (knights or cavalries). Depending how aggressive you are, you can finish the AI civs even before tanks. I build too much and by the time I should beat my final rival(s) (usually only one big AI civ from another continent) with tanks, artilleries, battleships and whatnot, I lose my interest for the game.

I don't play on Emperor because I don't really like this kind of approach. I prefer to build instead and culture-flip, but on emperor (and I suppose higher) it is war that pays off.

planetfall · December 11, 2003, 10:29

Thanks all for the hints. I definitely like a Monarch game better than Emperor, but want to win at least on Emperor.

On further reflection, usually I don't wait for 15 archers. It is a struggle with 6-8 archers. Likely if I try horses instead, I ususually try with 8 and don't wait for the build up to 20. Usually the AI has about as many swords as I have horses.

Example would be a game I started yesterday, (no quit so don't have sav). 2 continents. I was in the middle between Inca and Russia. I was able to get 3 Inca cities with my archers and a couple horses. Settled for 1 tech and gold. Also was able to get 2 cities from Russia. One other flipped back, and 2 more destroyed.

I was still in despotism. They both were 6-8 techs ahead. Inca had Republic and Russia just went into archy. I don't know if they were going for Monarchy or Republic. It was about turn 140 when I gave up. 4 civs were already in the middle ages. I only had contact with Russia and Inca, so trades were very difficult. Since they wouldn't trade, I bumped research to 7.2.0 to get to monarchy. Had about 13 horses. Inca's had 33 spear and 13 swords. Russia had a ton of spears and a few swords. I don't recall how many. Typical Russia, had about 1/2 the continent land area. So Inca's and I had to share. Only good part was I had all 3 lux's. Russia had one and Inca had none But being back in depositism meant cash rush was not possible and low production.

I'm going to try again from bc4000 with same map. They say the third times the charm, but I don't know. I gave up once on the other continent where AI pinned me to coast and I could only build 7 cities. This time I got 13 cities, but still very very weak.

I plan to try less granaries and maybe less barracks to see if that gains anything.

-- PF

vmxa1 · December 11, 2003, 13:50

With C3C, I like to found a city on the coast quickly. Maybe the 2nd or 3rd city. Then get that Curragh out to find all I can find. Soon add a second one. This will often allow you to get most of the civs in a two landmass game. This aids you in your research and you may be able to get a few trades in.
It is sort of an exploit, but it is what you should be doing anyway.

planetfall · December 11, 2003, 14:10

suicide curragh's, missed that. great idea.

-- PF

Sarxis · December 11, 2003, 16:22

What do you mean by suicide curraghs anyway?

planetfall · December 11, 2003, 16:29

Anum,

Try to go across oceans with curraghs.Some will sink, i.e. suicide,
hopefully some will make it and allow meeting other civs.

-- PF

RobC · December 11, 2003, 16:37

If you want a more manageable emperor+ game, play on an archipelago as any civ that starts with alphabet. Build 1 or 2 curraghs early on and tech whore to your heart's content so you aren't as far behind tech wise (in fact, you can often get ahead of the pack) without significantly impacting the rest of your strategy.

Efugia · December 11, 2003, 20:23

One of the most important aspects to emperor+ games, imo, is setting the AI civs against one another.

This does several important things to help you out:

1) AIs cannot trade techs with civs they are at war with.
2) AIs will burn up a lot of shields.
3) AI teching will slow down
4) Often, AIs city pops will start dropping from rushing/conscripting.
5) If the wars really get rolling and self perpetuating, you will become less of a target. AIs are less likely to declare war on you if they're busy fighting amongst themselves. This makes it much more likely that you're calling the shots.

So make those contacts. Build those embassies. Start those fake wars. Ring up those alliances vs. poor sucker you can't get to.

If things are going well, EVERY powerful AI will be fighting every other powerful AI. Even if you've fallen behind in techs, often this will give you room to catch up, and a lot more room to play middle man trading between the civs.

30 GPT might seem like an awful lot to get the russians against those pesky inca, but that 600 gold will reap unrivaled benefits.

Mountain Sage · December 12, 2003, 06:13

Planetfall,

Look at the thread 'Emperor games C3C: how to improve your skills' on the strategy forum.
You will find there comparative games, explanation about strategy, tips, screenshots etc.
And it's free!