looking for your opinion on Fascism

[Ision]

I have noticed a very strong tendency on the part of the AI towards fascism in the Industrial age.

What do you gentlemen believe would be the impact of changeing Fascism from 'forced labour' to 'paid labour'?

Would it be overpowered? underpowered? help or hinder the AI ? benefit the human player too much - not enough?

Any or all opinions are appreciated.

Ision

[Ision]

calling all AU MOD developers............calling all AU MOD developers............

lol

Ision

[David Murray]

I'm unconvinved that fascism is any better than either communism or democracy for war or peace respectively.

Changing to paid labour would make it better because it comes when cities have stock exchanges and railroads. Then, I think it would be the best war government in the game. Otherwise, I see no reason to use it.

[korn469]

post in the wrong thread...opps!

anyways, making fascism have paid labor makes it stronger in my opinion

[ChaotikVisions]

I dunno, Facism looks useful to me, I plan on testing it out in this game i'm playing. It has the highest worker efficency(useful if not playing Industrious, and for railroading everything). It also has the highest unit support, with minor corruption and no war weariness. The main downside is the pop lost, but who can't stand to lose a few pop in the Industrial age. Paid labour would make it too powerful though, I think its fine as it is.

[Orz]

Sending your civilizationjugend to clear the jungles?

Well, I have been hesitating to switch to Fascism so long, because I usually either have a well-developed democracy or rushing towards the dam, or both. Seems interesting, though...

[ChrisiusMaximus]

IMO opinion the game did not require this new feature, I see no point in it whatsoever and I dont think I shall ever bother using it.

I never have any trouble conducting wars under Democracy, even long wars. Of course you do need luxeries and improvements to keep em happy but even so its easy enough to maintain.

Addmittedly this might be different on the highest diff levels but as I play mostly Regent and Monarch that does not affect me

[axxessdenied]

IF you have problems with war weariness, this is the gov't to go with. I believe that switching it to paid labour would make it too powerful of a gov't.
You already get a nice worker efficiency boost, great unit support, and no war weariness, and low corruption. You can't ask for more.

[Hrafn]

Exept maybe a fascist government only unit...I loved those Fanatics with Fundamentalism...we should get a Fascist for Fascism...hehe...

...didn't Call to Power have a Fascist unit...that was cool.

[Inverse Icarus]

i have honestly never used it. whats up with the population drop upon switch?

[Cerbykins]

Thinking about it, might have a use for small states where democracy/communism wouldn't be a lot better than republic/monarchy (save the worker advantage, of course )

But then...how often would folks still have a low-land-area in the industrial age? Might have it's place in scenarios...but most of the time, best to go with the big govs.

[furrykef]

Originally posted by Uber KruX
whats up with the population drop upon switch?

Easy. From a gameplay standpoint, it throws it into balance. It means you won't become a fascist government unless you really, really want it, so its advantages aren't had so readily unless the situation encourages it to begin with. I do think there's a right time to use it, but it's never the only viable option. Kind of like in real life (moral implications aside).

From a historic standpoint, fascist governments, and governments similar to fascism, tend to lead to mass executions and other violence when they get into power...especially since the people might be particularly resistant to switch to fascism of all things, until they're sufficiently brainwashed. Communist China comes to mind (even though the game distinguishes between fascism and Communism, but I think Maoist China was just fascism in disguise). If we consider fundamentalism to be a form or variant of fascism, Iraq comes to mind, too.

- Kef

[Enriquillo]

I just used facism in that C3C game with the dutch that Mountain Sage posted.

It's fairly good I would say, much better in that particular game than democracy because war weariness was a big issue.

What kinda bothered me was that my newly conquered cities do not generate culture for a long time, thus you don't claim a lot of the luxuries just outside your cities.
Ofcourse a few colonies remedies this, but still it's annoying.

Losing pop is a bit of a letdown as well.

Advantage over communism is pretty clear, you're core cities keep producing almost as good as under democracy and you can maintain a huge army for free, I think it was 260 at one point.

Paid labor would greatly benefit facism, it'd be too strong IMO.

[habib_crayen]

hail.
if Fascism makes your workers work at 200% of their capacities, and supplies your army, I think it can only be a "rescue" type of government. I mean that it can help you goin' away from a dark crisis by heavy producing, but on the other hand it won't never bring your money back... I think fascism is only a short transition... (maybe to lead a few battles...)

[furrykef]

Originally posted by habib_crayen
hail.
if Fascism makes your workers work at 200% of their capacities, and supplies your army, I think it can only be a "rescue" type of government. I mean that it can help you goin' away from a dark crisis by heavy producing, but on the other hand it won't never bring your money back... I think fascism is only a short transition... (maybe to lead a few battles...)

You know, I think that's exactly it! Think about it, that's the way it generally happened in real life...for instance, Nazi Germany. Nazi Germany was a semi-direct result of the conclusion of World War I. We made the big mistake of punishing Germany so much that its economy went down the toilet. You needed a wheelbarrow just to carry marks to the grocery store because they were so useless. Some people used their money to keep fires going. Thus the people were disposed to believe the promises of Hitler and the result was a fascist government. You could say that the government was formed to get out of the hole Germany had gotten into, and it seems to be this way in the game: Fascism is a tool for when the going gets really tough and you need to play catch-up in productivity. And, going back to our example, Germany's industrial capacity did get a big boost from what I remember. Good thing it wasn't enough for them to win the war!

- Kef

[Donegeal]

You think that being in anarchy for a number of turns (producing nothing), loosing 2 pop per city and not being able to rush buy with gold is a way of increasing productivity?

NOT A CHANCE!!!!!

The only way I can see this as a viable govt is if you are on course to a Cultural victory and are surounded by larger more powerful civs. You switch to Fascism for defensive military reasons and coast to a win.

[Jethro83]

I've never used fascism under any circumstance. I just don't like the drawbacks of it. Having to add loads of my workers/settlers to my newly conquered and starved cities just so they can START generating culture is the ugliest trait of any government in my opinion. Not to mention the population hit from the switch itself. Even if it had paid labour I'd never use it myself.

But by that point I am running the peaceful, gigantic, democratic superpower and have no need for war, unless they start it.

[Enriquillo]

Democracy is all nice and such, but...

What if you're playing on emperor or higher, have only 2 luxuries and are at war with at least 2 civs. Oh and they started it.
Also it's very likely you won't get all happiness wonders on emperor+ level.
Mix that with crappy map, no strategic resources and democracy suddenly doesn't look that hot anymore.

Circumstances like this make facism very attractive, same with communism.

[jshelr]

I believe Facism has hurt the game.

The reason is that as the game moves into the industrial age, the human player's advantages become too great and the game loses the competitive edge that makes it fun.

Facism interacts badly with ToE and US. While the AI researches nationalism and, particularly if a war is on, facism, the human player goes for ToE and/or US. The result is game over. (I also noted a big population drop in facist China in a recent game that was pretty competitive until China went fascist. The pop drop was much more than just the initial pop penalty.)

The fact that all the human player's work to better develop cities starts to pay off around this time of the game is fair enough. However, what Alexman called the "insane power" of ToE spoils the competitive edge that makes the game fun. The AI should be changed to value ToE very highly or it should be eliminated from the game, IMO.

Meantime, any idea, even if it is a good one, that further deflects the AI from the proper industrial age research direction makes the game worse. Facism is such an idea as far as I'm concerned.

To get back on the thread's actual topic, Facism is not worth the research effort for the human player. If you can trade for it, it looks to be a good war government, particularly (ironically) for a religious civ.

[Cerbykins]

I saw a big Russian AI use it for war, and it just changed back once it had pinched what it wanted
Having said that, it wasn't bothering much with sanitation ANYWAY....
If I remember seeing it correctly, the AI gets revolution time bonuses on the higher levels, so perhaps THIS is it's purpose...?

[furrykef]

Originally posted by donegeal
You think that being in anarchy for a number of turns (producing nothing), loosing 2 pop per city and not being able to rush buy with gold is a way of increasing productivity?

NOT A CHANCE!!!!!

I wouldn't be too sure. For instance, if you're a Religious civ, you wouldn't have anarchy for a number of turns. Also, either way, you need to take into account what government you're already in. If you're in Monarchy or something, Fascism would probably be an improvement. Also your relative civ size and population must be taken into account. You can't really make a blanket statement such as "It causes anarchy and population loss, so it must be bad all the time".

- Kef

[Cerbykins]

Ok, so it's not a GREAT rescue. But it does seem to fit...

Plus, it goes with my path of thinking (already stated) that Fascism is a war government for the smaller empire. Oh, and obviously making Monarchy obsolete, in the same way Democracy makes Republic obsolete (mostly) - and how Monarchy/Republic generally make Despotism obsolete.

[nbarclay]

I'm another in the "never used Fascism" camp. I can see Fascism maybe being worthwhile for a non-religious civ if a player is behind and plans a series of drawn-out wars to catch up, especially on huge maps (where I'm pretty sure wars tend to be longer and war weariness more destructive). But it's not a good government for how I normally play.

I have only minimal experience on Deity level and none at all on Sid, but Fascism is probably a lot more interesting on those levels than it is on levels mere mortals play. War weariness is worse; AI militaries are bigger; and the player is a lot more likely to be behind in tech and therefore unable to fight on the kind of highly favorable terms that are often possible on lower levels. Thus, staying in a representative government for a war of much length would tend to be impractical on those levels. Fascism might start looking attractive under such conditions, especially for a civ that isn't all that big.

Nathan

[habib_crayen]

Hail.
I don't think fascism can be used very long, that's like communism after all, you can produce more than in democracy, but finally, in a dozen of years, you won't be able to pay what you had produced.
If we can find this hidden key, wich allows us to get as money as in democracy with communism, maybe it will be the best Governement. but can we find taht key?

[habib_crayen]

Hail.
I don't think fascism can be used very long, that's like communism after all, you can produce more than in democracy, but finally, in a dozen of years, you won't be able to pay what you had produced.
If we can find this hidden key, wich allows us to get as money as in democracy with communism, maybe it will be the best Governement. but can we find taht key?

[habib_crayen]

What the hell?

[furrykef]

That's called a "double-post". You might have pressed the submit button twice. Just delete one.

- Kef

[Cerbykins]

The fascist player may - if they're up to it - be able to keep up in tech by smart trading and a bit of plaery extortion - but even if they DO recover (unlikely, seeing as it's probably inability that got them i teh mess in teh first place, which means new tricks have to be learnt in a VERY short space of time ), then it ceases to be the best option. In the Korea game mentioned elsewhere, the guy initially wanted democracy but was unable to use it because of the predicament. But by self-confession, as soon as I'd hammered the Japs back with enough wars...I went into Democracy ANYWAY, and ignored Fascism/Communism

That's a tad messy

Basically, what I'm saying is, the initial outlay of resources you have to put in (the lost pop, the inability to get temples to defend against culture flips in new cities, the relative lack of cash) makes it too tough a gov for someone in trouble, and it's power doesn't last long enough to make it viable once/if the player later recovers. You'd have to be a small-land-area, mobilised nation with lots of metros, constantly fighting for your life to get the most out of this gov. And really, it's not a realistic situation. Name all the times you have suffered this

Ok, so I repeat what the others say, but the points stand
Now someone tell Firaxis, so they can make this gov a realistic choice

[Theseus]

Going back to the first post... I'm seeing it not for the player but in KAI civs. Any thoughts?

[Enriquillo]

Now someone tell Firaxis, so they can make this gov a realistic choice

Tell you a secret, it's already a realistic choice.
Not all games are played out peacefully, and if you're like me, easily provoked, democracy can be a real pain
Even though I know it's stupid to declare war on the guy trespassing on your land with a settler/pikeman combo, I still do 'cause I'll be damned if I let that slip by unpunished

Picture this: emperor level, 25 cities, 200 military, 2 luxuries (including the one you traded with the only civ that's not at war with you). You're in the lead, just barely. Also in the process of buiding your railroads (200% workers anyone?)
Anarchy just ended, what do you choose, democracy? I think not.