Popular Scenarios You Dislike

[St Leo]

I am not a big fan of Red Front.

EDIT:

I admire it from a technical standpoint and I have no moral objections towards roleplaying as USSRians (or Nazis for that matter), but it involves too much micromanagement.

I have always stuck by the Mongols 2.0 approach to scenario design: start with up to five cities and expand fast. Scenarios that give me billions of cities or units in the beginning bore the hades out of me because I like to grok the character and uses of cities and units as I obtain them.

P.S. I don't know if Red Front is too hard for my tastes because I never got to the first winter in it. However, any scenario that becomes unwinnable because one moved the a couple of units in the wrong direction by accident is too hard for me.

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Leons Petrazickis (St. Leo)
http://aventine.cf-developer.net/minizigg/
petrazi@sprint.ca
[This message has been edited by St Leo (edited May 17, 2001).]

[SixArmedMan]

Harlan's Pacific War scenario bugged the hell out of me... You'd spend so much time on your first turn only to have your carriers sunk by roving American planes weaving their way through your fleet to find your defenceless carriers... ALWAYS irritated me. I never started a second turn... I'm still of the opinion that a good Pacific war scenario is unlikely because of the computer's dismal use of carriers... Well, there's still Darthveda's one for TOT coming out but wasn't that one supposed to be released last year? Or something like... What do I know anyways?

No offense to Nemo, but I didn't like Red Front either. I'll admit that it may probably the closest thing to a perfectly designed scenario, but as I've stated before... I just can't roleplay the commies in that war.

[BeBro]

Hm, not really dislike, but I never played Harlan´s "Lord of the Rings". All people say it´s great, and I have it on my HD for a long time, but I simply love the book too much, I can´t imagine that any civ scn can reflect its atmosphere...

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Civ2000 hosted by CivII Universum

[Paul Hanson]

I must admit, I find Nemo`s scenarios extremely frustrating. And Harlan`s WW2 Europe, because I have something of a moral issue with playing the Nazis.

[Chris 62]

This will seem odd, because I am playing it PBEM right now, but 2194 days of war borders on fantasy more than WWII. Because of the world map and rail lines, history is distorted. The Atlantic is wider than the Pacific, The Japanese can rip up the Soviets from the rear, the med is compressed, so many different things. The units and graphics are beautiful, and the level of care is excellent, but as an historical scenario, it is lacking somewhat.

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All knowledge begins with the phrase: I don't know.

[Eternal]

I never finished a game of Red Front either. It just takes so long for the Germans to move, and you're so hopeless against them, and it takes too long to get to winter and winter doesn't last long enough!

I never got to the 6th turn of Second Front either. There's just so much to do in both of these scenarios, and I don't like doing a lot of stuff.

Still, these are probably a couple of the most visually stunning scenarios out there, and if they weren't I probably wouldn't have played them as long as I had.

[Cal]

There seems to be a lot of anti-Red Front sentiment around here...

Personally, I loved it! How can you have a moral issue when playing a civ2 scenario? Civ2 reduces everything down to the emotionless tactical aspects, and besides, in a time of crisis, it's best to forget about the 1930 Purges.

The only thing I disliked about Red Front is that it had no definite ending, I would've liked all hostilities to have ceased once Berlin was captured and Hitler was dead. In contrast, Kobayashi's Dominion scenario has definite conclusions and wipes whole civilizations off the map with the capture of the capital or paramount cities to insure there's a conclusion even when negotiations aren't allowed.

[Exile]

I will have to agree with the 6-armed one; the pacific war scenarios have so much potential to really be a good game, but the combination of the AI's dismal non-use of carriers, combined with its stunning inability to conduct amphibious warfare generally make those scenarios unplayable as a single-player game. One of the original attractions of the MGE package was the inclusion of the East Wind/Rain scenario. That scenario had other problems, but suffers most from the ineptitude of the AI to wage war in the pacific. I would dearly like to play the Japanese; lightning conquests of the East Indies and Malaya, destruction of the Dutch fleets, desperate surface fights in the south pacific, and carrier war in the central pacific. Alternately, it would also be tremendous fun to play the American side; last-ditch defense of Midway and the Coral Sea, inevitable momentum as your industrial advantage is brought to bear on the IJN. Either side would be a real blast to play.

Ummm. Anyone for a pacific mp game? Or duel?

Salutations,
Exile

[Henrik]

I have played one game of Red Front, while playing it I got into the game so much that I allways (even when not playing civ) knew what my cities where producing, where the germans where attacking at the time and where I was going to start major offensives.
After that great one game I have never ever played the scenario again, I simply cannot get into it this time

A popular (well I think it is) scenario I dislike is the Underdark scenario, I found it very bothersome to have my definite objective defined as:
Destroy all other beings in the Underdark, that would have been boring even as a rpg.

[master on high]

This is a really constructive thread

[our_man]

I don't know why, but I could never stand any of Alex the Magnificent's scenario's (except the ones done in collaboration with Nemo). I never could get into them - I played a few turns but they never managed to hold my interest.

[Leonidas]

Red Front is one of the best designed scenarios out there. It takes WORK to learn how to play it properly. But it is superbly done. I have played all of the versions of this scenario - and they get better each time. Nemo broke the traditional Civ "mold" when he designed this scenario. It set a standard that rarely has been matched.

In contrast, I cannot recall how many times I have downloaded and played other scenarios (by all designers) with the expectations of great game play only to wind up deleting that scenario because of bugs, inconsistencies, or down right dum civ/AI/diplomatic actions. For example, there is one middle east scenario (can't recall the name), that started out to be a great scenario. I was playing the Israelis against the Arabs. Then as I started winning, NATO declared war on me! Give me break - as usual - I deleted that scenario.

Nemo's scenarios are some of the best out there - they are well-designed and it takes real effort/strategy to play them well. Anyone who dosn't want to be challenged and be forced to use real strategy - should not be playing Nemo's scenarios. There are plenty of easy, substandard ones out there. . .

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Go tell the Spartans, passerby:
That here, obedient to their laws, we lie.

[kIndal]

Too, I have to recognize that I don´t like so much Red and Second front (as I said that "2914 days" is one of my favourites ) I think that they are probably the best ones in graphics, accuracy and innovative ideas, but they fail in one of the most important points, the playbility, it is very boring moving hundreds of units and wait a lot of time to play other turn, I have never played more than a pair of turns.
But it is only a personal point of view, I like short and quick scenarios.

[Henrik]

quote: Originally posted by kIndal on 05-17-2001 01:38 PM But it is only a personal point of view, I like short and quick scenarios.

Is this why you design a 30 years war scenarios...
Your Carolus scenario was pretty long too...

[Shaka Naldur]

actually I think that Nemo´s scn are the best ones out there but really hard, I´ve never finished any of them

I´m surprised that our_man doesn´t like Alex scn
have you played Spartacus??

atually I don´t think that there is any scn that I dislike... (I´ll think a little about it later ) but in my opnion there are too many european teathre ww2 scn that are too close, there all look alike

[kIndal]

quote: Originally posted by Henrik on 05-17-2001 03:00 PM Is this why you design a 30 years war scenarios... Your Carolus scenario was pretty long too...

Yes, but I made scenarios that I try that everybody like and I know that there is a lot of people that love long scenarios, but I prefer play the short ones


[This message has been edited by kIndal (edited May 17, 2001).]

[Case]

I've never been able to get into 'Cross and Cresent' by Bebro. Whilst the graphics are excelent and the period of history interests me, There just aren't enough cities to keep my interest up at the start of the scenario.

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If all else fails, immortality can always be assured by spectacular error
-John Kenneth Galbraith
[This message has been edited by Case (edited May 17, 2001).]

[techumseh]

Well, I guess there had to be a reaction against the Nemo cult. I
thoroughly enjoyed my first game of Red Front. As an experience, desperately fighting for your life against the blitzkrieg,
it is second to none. You really begin to understand how the Soviet
High Command must have felt when they went to bed at night during the long
summer and fall of 1941.

But once you open it up under cheat mode and see what you're up
against, it rapidly becomes demoralizing. It loses its appeal as a GAME, because it's obvious there's no way to WIN THE WAR, as opposed to surviving the scenario.

Nemo has made a contribution to Civ scenarios as great as anyone. The
problem he's run up against, like a number of others, is that "bigger
isn't always better". This is compounded by the new systems (hex editing, BAT files, etc.) which have been piggybacked onto the basic Civ2 software. At some point, the increased size and complexity now possible in scenarios just makes them not worth the effort. I hit that wall with "Second Front", amoung others.

The biggest disappointment for me was "Sacrificial Blood". Even though I was supposed to be a playtester, I could never get the over-elaborate installation system to work. And I'm at a loss to explain why you need to get a password just to download it. So I still don't know if it's worth the major effort required by the author to play his creation.

So my beef is not bad scenarios, it's good scenarios that are too large/complex to enjoy. Multi-chapter scenarios are the main culprits.

[Kull]

quote: Originally posted by techumseh on 05-17-2001 10:38 PM Multi-chapter scenarios are the main culprits.

Hey!!! I represent that!

[Cal]

quote: Originally posted by techumseh on 05-17-2001 10:38 PM It loses its appeal as a GAME, because it's obvious there's no way to WIN THE WAR, as opposed to surviving the scenario.

What do you mean there's no way to win the war? Certainly in June 1941 there isn't... but Red Front is quite winnable, just this recently I finally forced myself to play through it on Deity and managed to hold enough German cities (including Berlin) to force a German Decisive Defeat at the historical date, May 1945.
edit: Not that I'm bragging or anything.

I think the only thing that bothered me about Second Front was that you had to know when to attack a certain city... and if you did it when the wrong events were loaded, you were wasting your time. I've yet to play past the third events files.

Oh, and as for a popular scenario I didn't like: I wasn't fond of Third Reich... it had some bugs, and by the time I got around to playing it, it was already a very "old" scenario.

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The strategically impaired,
-Cal
[This message has been edited by Cal (edited May 18, 2001).]

[techumseh]

Kull: a couple of exceptions are the AE twins.

Cal: well, I guess I didn't do as well as you, but I didn't have the patience for more than a couple of tries. My point is about overlong/complex games.

[DarthVeda]

quote: Originally posted by techumseh on 05-17-2001 10:38 PM Multi-chapter scenarios are the main culprits.

Oh darn... I'm going to have to cancel Kyokujitsu then.

It's being deleted from my HD as I am typing this.

*phew* no more Kyokujitsu. That feels better.

[BeBro]

quote: The problem he's run up against, like a number of others, is that "bigger isn't always better"

I think there are simply different "types" of scn players. Personally I agree with St.Leo´s approach - not too much cities/units in the beginning. But others exactly want that, so it´s just a matter of personal preferences, in my eyes.

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Civ2000 hosted by CivII Universum

[our_man]

Shaka, I've played Spartacus and I thought it was completely over-hyped! It wasn't one which stayed on my hard drive!

I can't believe the amount of people out there who don't like Red Front! In my opinion it is the best scenario ever made for Civ2! No other scenario has managed to conjure such a sense of tension as you watch the Germans swarm over your forces in 1941. There is nothing quite as frustrating as watching their onslaught on your hastily assembled defensive lines, praying that they'll hold until winter arrives... Sheer class.

I do have one gripe about it. Late in 1941 I usually get the message "too many units". I usually rush build some KV-1's on the previous turn, and it's really annoying to spend money on these units and not get them next turn, especially as every single rouble is so precious at this time in the game.

[PolarisGL]

Master on High sent me DarthVeda's scenario when he playtested it. The hype is useless; to me it is just a Red Front in the Pacific.

[Mercator]

What I loathe about practically every distinguished scenario around is that you need to be a civ2 mastermind to be able to play it. The majority of Civ2 players is still playing below Emperor level, as far as I know. Most of those probably don´t bother playing scenarios, because they´re too darn hard and complex, and that´s a shame. Why can´t scenario-makers make scenarios that are playable at all difficulty levels (such as my very own Orbis Terrae, hint hint!)?
I like Harlan Thompson´s "Lord of the Rings" and Mongols scenarios, but after several turns I just give up.

[Eternal]

See, I really got into the Mongols scenario. I didn't finish it, because it's really long, but I went really far. I also enjoyed the Timur Khan/Tamerlane/wharever scenario. I don't especially enjoy all scenarios from that period, but those scenarios I found addictive.

Still, I'm not the type to play games over and over and over, and scenarios cannot have the total flexibility as a regular civ game.

[techumseh]

This must be one of the best threads in a while. I assume that exams are finished?

[DarthVeda]

quote: Originally posted by PolarisGL on 05-18-2001 03:04 PM Master on High sent me DarthVeda's scenario when he playtested it. The hype is useless; to me it is just a Red Front in the Pacific.

You played it? How's that. I didn't think you owned Test of Time. Back in November you told me you didn't have a copy...