Democracy at work in Canada - Page 3

RedFred · December 15, 2003, 14:58

Here is something to think about: Chretien spent most of his time as PM out golfing. So does he wake up this morning and start putting in an honest day's work?

Richelieu · December 15, 2003, 15:00

Quote:

Originally posted by RedFred
...I forgot about the bilingual part. So that shrinks the talent pool to say, 750,000.

My future is getting brighter by the minute.

Richelieu · December 15, 2003, 15:09

I heard that Paul Martin was born in Ontario. It makes sense if you consider that his dad was also a prominent Liberal and spent most of his time in Ottawa.
Would that make him the first Franco PM?

KrazyHorse · December 15, 2003, 15:37

Quote:

Originally posted by Richelieu

My future is getting brighter by the minute.

Mine too.

cinch · December 15, 2003, 16:34

Quote:

Originally posted by KrazyHorse

AFAIK even the PM is not required to be an MP.

Good to know.

Waitaminnit... No, it isn't. Frig.

Richelieu · December 15, 2003, 16:38

Quote:

Originally posted by KrazyHorse

Mine too.

Not for you Kitty! You defected!

BTW, do you feel brain-drained yet?

Sprayber · December 15, 2003, 17:02

Quote:

Originally posted by Tingkai
Whenever an American president bites the bullet, the unelected vice-president takes over.

The VP is elected right along with the President and must have exactly the same qualifications. In a way you are electing two presidents. It used to be that the person with the second highest electoral votes got the VP slot but thats been changed for a long time. If you want to look for a time when America had a tottally unelected President, your man would be Gerald Ford. Nixon ran with Spiro Agnew on the presidential ticket, but Agnew resigned as VP and Nixon appointed Ford. Then Ford took over as President after Nixon's resigning. The only election Ford ever stood for is that of his Congressional seat. Ford was a Congressman at the time..

JimmyCracksCorn · December 15, 2003, 19:27

Ok, I do understand how parliamentary democracy works.

All I was saying was that I don't like it, and that I wish it was a little more democratic. Other than that, its fine. Just one man's opinion...

Sava: I think this is beyond right wing and left wing, its more about fundamental government structure issues.

But you're right, the right wing in Canada does whine alot... probably because they don't have their way here. Opposite of the US, hence why the left complains so much there....

notyoueither · December 15, 2003, 19:39

Quote:

Originally posted by Agathon
Actually I take that back. You are an asshat NYE.

Quote:

I just read what you said about the Maple Leafs. You bastard! Well suck it up baby, points in 12 straight games and heading to the top of the Eastern Conference.

It's gonna be this year...

This bit brings a song to mind...

He came from somewhere back in her long ago
The sentimental fool don't see
Tryin' hard to recreate
What had yet to be created once in her life
She musters a smile
For his nostalgic tale
Never coming near what he wanted to say
Only to realized
It never really was
She had a place in his life
He never made her think twice
As she rises to her apology
Anybody else would surely know
He's watching her go
But what a fool believes he sees
No wise man has the power to reason away
What seems to be
Is always better than nothing
And nothing at all keeps sending him ...
Somewhere back in her long ago
Where he can still believe
There's a place in her life
Someday, somewhere, she will return
She had a place in his life
He never made her think twice
As she rises to her apology
Anybody else would surely know
He's watching her go
But what a fool believes he sees
No wise man has the power to reason away
What seems to be
Is always better than nothing
There's nothing at all
But what a fool believes he sees ...

Just imagine Stanley as 'her'. I think it should be the theme song for Leafs fans.

KrazyHorse · December 15, 2003, 20:51

Quote:

Originally posted by Richelieu

Not for you Kitty! You defected!

BTW, do you feel brain-drained yet?

I'm coandming bvadck; don'tr worry about it.

I couldn't imaignbe raising kids int this shithole.

RedFred · December 16, 2003, 15:20

Looks like you have already picked up American spelling skills.

GhengisFarb™ · December 16, 2003, 15:41

Quote:

Originally posted by Seeker
the future of Canadian politics:

We are reduced to voting for a right wing or left wing candidate of the Liberal party, or 'wasting' our votes.

Demolition Man paraphrase: "In the future, all parties are the Liberal party"

You got that right! As long as there's an open border the US it going to keep huntin and herdin our useless liberals into Canada. Its not they're good for anything.

Agathon · December 16, 2003, 15:56

Quote:

Originally posted by notyoueither

This bit brings a song to mind...

He came from somewhere back in her long ago
The sentimental fool don't see
Tryin' hard to recreate
What had yet to be created once in her life
She musters a smile
For his nostalgic tale
Never coming near what he wanted to say
Only to realized
It never really was
She had a place in his life
He never made her think twice
As she rises to her apology
Anybody else would surely know
He's watching her go
But what a fool believes he sees
No wise man has the power to reason away
What seems to be
Is always better than nothing
And nothing at all keeps sending him ...
Somewhere back in her long ago
Where he can still believe
There's a place in her life
Someday, somewhere, she will return
She had a place in his life
He never made her think twice
As she rises to her apology
Anybody else would surely know
He's watching her go
But what a fool believes he sees
No wise man has the power to reason away
What seems to be
Is always better than nothing
There's nothing at all
But what a fool believes he sees ...

Just imagine Stanley as 'her'. I think it should be the theme song for Leafs fans.

JimmyCracksCorn · December 16, 2003, 16:08

Quote:

Originally posted by KrazyHorse I couldn't imaignbe raising kids int this shithole.

Where in the US are you? It can't be that bad...

KrazyHorse · December 16, 2003, 22:14

Quote:

Originally posted by GhengisFarb

You got that right! As long as there's an open border the US it going to keep huntin and herdin our useless liberals into Canada. Its not they're good for anything.

Liberal and liberal are two different things.

The old Conservatives were so close to the Liberals as to be indistinguishable on most issues.

notyoueither · December 16, 2003, 22:19

Only to a raving left wing loon.

St Leo · December 16, 2003, 22:29

Quote:

Originally posted by Sprayber
The VP is elected right along with the President and must have exactly the same qualifications.

Everyone who actually thought that Paul Martin would not end up as Chretien's successor during the last federal elections, please lift your hands.

KrazyHorse · December 17, 2003, 05:58

Quote:

Originally posted by notyoueither
Only to a raving left wing loon.

Only a Tory could say that.

Quote:

Everyone who actually thought that Paul Martin would not end up as Chretien's successor during the last federal elections, please lift your hands.

What about Sheila?

cinch · December 17, 2003, 06:33

Quote:

Originally posted by KrazyHorse

Quote:

Everyone who actually thought that Paul Martin would not end up as Chretien's successor during the last federal elections, please lift your hands.

What about Sheila?

Good one!

KrazyHorse · December 17, 2003, 06:57

I know.

East Street Trader · December 17, 2003, 08:35

Elections involve a temperary suspension to some of the processes of government. Too frequent elections - which occur in some countries - create problems. And if you had your wish and could directly elect each PM there might have to be more frequent elections. Because as soon as the elected PM lost his or her ability to command a majority in parliament he would necessarily have to resign and that would trigger the need for an election. No doubt Paiktis can tell us if I am wrong but I rather think Greece went through a period of repeated change of government and numerous electionms not too long ago.

As matters stand no new election is required in Canada unless there is no party which can command (whether by sheer numbers or by wheeling and dealing) a working majority.

I rather share your disenchantment. But on a more fundamental level. I have lost my faith that my vote allows me to control the politicians which that vote puts into power.

And looking at the various alternative models for democratic systems I do not see a system which seems to carry that ability with it.

I am not altogether sure exactly what has eroded my faith. The party system is certainly one major element. And the curious symbiosis between governments and the media is another - although I could not say precisely why or how.

A fundamental change taking place to the way law works also plays its part - along with pretty well total disenchantment with the legislative process (which I see close up in my daily work).

Anyway the upshot is that I have started to think that democracy has shot its bolt. If we hope to control those in power we need something different.

What that different thing is to be I don't know. But it must be something, I rather think, which requires individual citizens to be much more involved than just to fill in a ballot paper or punch out a chad once every four or five years.

With the availability of modern communications - the net in particular - it may be that some arrangement involving frequent referenda could evolve.

The total failure of the democratic processes to limit the ability of Bush and Blair to indulge themselves over Iraq, however, makes me a bit gloomy as to whether enough time is left in which the evolution necessary could hope to take place.

I hope I am wrong in that.

Agathon · December 17, 2003, 08:38

Quote:

Originally posted by East Street Trader

Anyway the upshot is that I have started to think that democracy has shot its bolt. If we hope to control those in power we need something different.

We have it, it's called "hanging".

notyoueither · December 17, 2003, 22:59

Quote:

Originally posted by KrazyHorse
Only a Tory could say that.

Red Tory to you, bub. Of course, the further from the forest you get, the fewer trees can be discerned. Hence, raving leftie loons might be forgiven for not spotting them.

JimmyCracksCorn · December 17, 2003, 23:53

Quote:

Originally posted by East Street Trader

As matters stand no new election is required in Canada unless there is no party which can command (whether by sheer numbers or by wheeling and dealing) a working majority.

I hope I am wrong in that.

Says who?

KrazyHorse · December 18, 2003, 05:22

That's true, with one exception: there must be a dissolution of Parliament at least once every five years...

Uncle Sparky · December 18, 2003, 06:02

Quote:

Originally posted by KrazyHorse

AFAIK even the PM is not required to be an MP.

Correct.

When a PM resigns (or dies in office) and the person who is elected to lead the majority party is not a sitting MP, he or she is still PM. The last time this happened was with Brian Mulroney. He was elected PC party leader on June 11, 1983; after a by-election in Central Nova (a safe PC seat), Mulroney entered the Canadian House of Commons in Ottawa on August 28, 1983.

Mulroney went on to cozy up to Reagan and currently lives in the USA, sitting on the Boards of several multinationals that exploit Canada through trade laws passed under his regime. He should have his citizenship revoked.

optimus2861 · December 18, 2003, 12:53

^ But Mulroney wasn't PM at the time; the PCs didn't come to power until 1984.

TheStinger · December 18, 2003, 13:13

Quote:

Originally posted by KrazyHorse

You're a dumbass.

The Prime Minister is simply the head of the majority party in the House of Commons. All of his power derives directly from the support of his caucus (the composition of which is directly determined by us in 301 ridings across the country at least once every 5 years).

If you want undemocratic then you should talk to Britain where:

a) The same thing can happen
and
b) The monarch has intervened in selecting the formation of minority governments in living memory

a is true

b is complete bollocks

KrazyHorse · December 19, 2003, 13:38

As I recall there's been a case in the last fifty years where the sovereign asked the second largest party to form a minority government first (before giving the largest party the opportunity to do so).

Maybe it was a bit longer than that, though (70 years). Not sure right now.

*End Is Forever* · December 19, 2003, 21:50

It's not true to say that the monarch has "intervened" but in 1974 it was certainly true that the Queen was placed in a slightly awkward position.

Ted Heath's Conservatives had a slightly higher share of the vote than Labour under Wilson, but due to the vagaries of FPTP had emerged with a handful of seats less; however, neither party possessed an overall majority. As I understand it, the Queen did invite Heath to form a new administration on the condition that he secured support from the Liberals (which would have given him the required majority). He was unable to do so, and Wilson formed a minority administration. He then went to the polls again later in the year and secured a wafter-thin majority.

However, knowing your political background KH I assume you're trying to infer that the monarch would actively interfere; I can assure you that is utter nonsense.