Return of the King - Page 9

DanS · December 22, 2003, 00:59

I just saw it and it was very enjoyable. There's a lot in the movie, so I think I'll have to see it once or twice again to catch everything.

OzzyKP · December 22, 2003, 01:32

Saw it today. WOW.

Excellent movie!!!

But yea, lots of unnecessary stuff at the end. It was funny in the theater, people kept clapping thinking (perhaps hoping) it was over, but then the movie continued. They waited half a minute, started to clap again, then it kept going. Waited a bit more then started to clap... happened like a dozen times. hehe

OzzyKP · December 22, 2003, 01:33

I did love the watchtower scene.

I also loved it when everyone bowed to the hobbits.

Imran Siddiqui · December 22, 2003, 01:35

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But yea, lots of unnecessary stuff at the end. It was funny in the theater, people kept clapping thinking (perhaps hoping) it was over, but then the movie continued. They waited half a minute, started to clap again, then it kept going. Waited a bit more then started to clap... happened like a dozen times. hehe

That sounds hilarious. I guess I'll have to wait for that when I go see it

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Rufus T. Firefly · December 22, 2003, 02:06

Quote:

Originally posted by Anun Ik Oba
After Frodo awakens from his stupor after the Ring's destruction, and each of the remaining members walk into the room one by one, Samwise got the most applause.

He definately kicked it in the end.

Did this scene remind anyone else of The Wizard of Oz? "But it wasn't a dream; it was a real place! And you were there, and you, and you..."

But, yeah, Sam rocked.

monolith94 · December 22, 2003, 02:13

Yes, the whole ending sequence had a Wizard of Oz tone to it. Note Sam's house at the very end - the coloration of his house made me think of the Wizard of Oz.

I give the film an 8/10. Some remarkable moments and scenes offset by moments of incredible mediocrity and directorial faltering.

Also, it changed things which didn't need to be changed. It also made middle-earth feel REALLY small.

The Emperor Fabulous · December 22, 2003, 02:15

I enjoyed it, but I think the second one was better. I don't think it's one of the best of the year, but it was good. The ending was a bit much for me. I couldn't stop laughing when everyone kept coming into the room ala Wizard of Oz.

Sean Astin (Sam) was probably the best part.

monolith94 · December 22, 2003, 02:24

That section was soooo cheesy. Oh look, Gimli comes in! And he's smiling! Awwwww!

It's just so contrived and manipulative. It's like how in the Fellowship of the Ring they all stand together looking at the camera, like they're posing for a picture. It's unnatural filmmaking.

Plus, Jackson totally wasted the amazing Eowyn / Withking opportunity. He flaunted it with messy camerawork and too much close up work.

Imran Siddiqui · December 22, 2003, 02:27

And that is why Jackson won't win Best Director even though other fanboys say what an injustice it is that he didn't win the other years

.

monolith94 · December 22, 2003, 02:41

If I were in the academy, I'd vote for Gore Verbinksi as best director. But I haven't seen 21 Grams yet, so I can't really say for sure...

Imran Siddiqui · December 22, 2003, 02:53

They may give it to Clint again for Mystic River.

Rufus T. Firefly · December 22, 2003, 05:11

My money's on Weir for Master and Commander, both because the direction of that film was masterful and because he's got a solid string of critical and/or popular films under his belt (Picnic at Hanging Rock, Gallipoli, Witness, Dead Poet's Society, The Truman Show, etc.).

Bosh · December 22, 2003, 07:23

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My money's on Weir for Master and Commander

Damn good movie, but we all know which is going to be the only movie made this year that's going to be regularly watched twenty years from now. I'm really looking forward to the third extended edition coming out so I can spend a day vegetating in front of the TV watching the three of 'em back to back...

And damn did I love the Faramir's last charge scene, wish we had more of him he really stole every scene he's was in...

Rufus T. Firefly · December 22, 2003, 08:09

20 years from now? Sure. Just like, 20+ years on, we're still watching Star Wars -- but the 1977 Oscar went to Woody Allen for Annie Hall. ROTK deserves awards, but not for direction; this was the least-well-directed of the three installments.

I wonder, though, if the Academy will give it a special award for furthering cinematic art, the way they did with Disney's Snow White and Olivier's Hamlet. That would be fitting.

Bereta_Eder · December 22, 2003, 08:25

Aragorn was good at doing that face of the self conscious, exhiled king aching for his country but when it came to inspiring his troops before charging mordor he sounded like a castrato.

MrBaggins · December 22, 2003, 08:48

The Academy has a habit of posthumously awarding though. Everyone is saying that LotR is due, its commercially and critically successful AND is the underdog in many ways. The stars are aligned for a big oscar night for LotR, at least thats what the people at oscarwatch.com forums are saying, and they aren't exactly fanboys.

Generally speaking there is only one epic that even gets nominated for best picture. There are two strong epic nominations this year... Cold Mountain and RotK. There just isn't space for a third.

Master and Commander has zero shot at best picture, and only an outside chance at a nomination.

The nominated films will be...

The Lord of the Rings: The Return of the King
Cold Mountain
Seabiscuit
Lost in Translation
Mystic River

Right now, the BP race is still up in the air to some degree, where the actual reception of Cold Mountain still has to be seen. If it does amazingly well, then it should get the statue, but if the rumors are true and it has bad chemistry for the leads (not withstanding some of the worst southern accents *grins*,) then RotK is a lock.

Oddly CM has a rotten rating right now at rottentomatoes.com, with 59%. The cream of the crop reviews are at 100%... but those are more tepid positives than anything... Richard Roeper said "a good movie not a great one". There haven't been any major "best movie of the year" quotes from critics, so far.

Theben · December 22, 2003, 10:06

Quote:

Originally posted by OzzyKP
Saw it today. WOW.

Excellent movie!!!

But yea, lots of unnecessary stuff at the end. It was funny in the theater, people kept clapping thinking (perhaps hoping) it was over, but then the movie continued. They waited half a minute, started to clap again, then it kept going. Waited a bit more then started to clap... happened like a dozen times. hehe

Didn't happen when I went. Everyone clapped at the actual ending.

I wonder how much of RotK ended up on the cutting room floor. I'll bet the extended version could add another hour.

Bosh · December 22, 2003, 10:27

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20 years from now? Sure. Just like, 20+ years on, we're still watching Star Wars -- but the 1977 Oscar went to Woody Allen for Annie Hall.

Right, the LoTR movies are the Star Wars of this decade something that Matrix tried for and failed, this is something that means a lot.

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but when it came to inspiring his troops before charging mordor he sounded like a castrato

Dammit, I loved the "today is not that day" line...

Only bit I really didn't like (besides the idiots laughing when the spider bites Frodo

is the rapidity with which the dead men sweep the field).

Drake Tungsten · December 22, 2003, 10:47

The fact that the Army of the Dead shows up at the Battle of the Pelennor Fields at all upsets me. Maybe it will be alright when I see the film, but it's bothering me right now.

-Jrabbit · December 22, 2003, 12:04

An awesome movie experience. Maximum rating.

The many false endings were a bit weird. That's probably why, earlier in this thread, that sequence is described as being 45 minutes. In reality, it's only 20 minutes from the destruction of the ring to the credits.

Some dreadful continuity errors in the final battle scene and at the end of Frodo's journey -- but I love that kind of stuff, and any movie of this scale will have its share. two of them are really major, and pretty funny.
(Will gladly post if wanted.)

Brundlefly · December 22, 2003, 12:19

After Sam kills the spider and opens up the coccoon, for a moment it looked like he found The Cure's Robert Smith inside instead of Frodo.

-Jrabbit · December 22, 2003, 12:20

that's exactly who I thought of too...

But that's due to the spider's poison, and I believe his pallor is even mentioned in the book...

Brundlefly · December 22, 2003, 12:35

Speaking of continuity, I thought it was strange that the orc brawl which begun from the fight between the two orcs guarding Frodo killed not some but ALL of the orcs involved in the brawl allowing Sam to rescue Frodo... Seemed like a scene was missing there...

gunkulator · December 22, 2003, 12:51

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Originally posted by Drake Tungsten
The fact that the Army of the Dead shows up at the Battle of the Pelennor Fields at all upsets me. Maybe it will be alright when I see the film, but it's bothering me right now.

It was my biggest disappointment. Talk about Deus Ex Machina! It completely negated the bravery of Rohan and Gondor.

The Nazgul were mishandled this time around. The first movie got it right: They were creatures that evoked sheer terror. In ROTK they were just attackers from the air.

I also didn't care how Denethor was made out to be nothing short of evil. His wrestling with Sauron through the palantir was omitted, along with the palantir itself. He came off as a petty and brutal leader, rather than a bitter and desperate man driven to madness and despair by the Sauron.

reismark · December 22, 2003, 13:00

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In addition (and more importantly) the Ents sent a few hundred Huorns to Helm's Deep (mobile trees), and the Uruk-hai weren't as fearless in the books as the movie. They broke and fled when Gandalf appeared and the troops rallied in the fortress, and fled thru the forest of Huorns, which slaughtered every last orc that passed thru.

This is shown on the extended version of the TT DVD.

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I agree, PJ went out of his way to make Aragorn doubt himself... which I think probably lines up with his decision to make Faramir weaker. I think PJ decided that some of Tolkein's characters were too virtuous to be believable.

Which, as I've said to you many times and we've debated until we were both blue in the face, is probably not only the case but an opinion that I wholeheartedly agree with. ESPECIALLY in the case of Faramir. They're HUMANS, goddamnit. They're SUPPOSED to be weak and vulnerable to evil.

The only thing missing that really bothered me was the Houses of Healing. Part of the deal in Aragorn being able to become a king is that he has to have the hands of a healer. We see a glimpse of this in FOTR after Frodo is stabbed by the Witch King, but this is where it would be revealed full force. Plus, I was also expecting this because this is where I expected Jackson to bring Faramir's character full-circle (to my surprise, though, he managed to pull that off when Denethor sent Faramir to his doom).

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I'm just glad they had the battle at the Black Gate.

They HAD to have that. It was so vital to the narrative. There's no way Frodo & Sam would have made across Gorgoroth without that happening.

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One thing I remain clueless on is the Scouring of the Shire in the book. I've heard people talk about it here and there but the only thing in the movie was a case of what might be if the ring isnt destroyed. If the Shire was scoured, Why does it look so great when they return or is this something that happens afterwards. Or maybe the movie version acts like it never took place to begin with..

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Yeah, come to think of it, the ending was pretty weak. The Scouring would have been a lot better - and it could have been shortened significantly. It could have been done in 15 minutes or so. Oh well.

I said this back when FOTR came out (it was revealed then that the Scouring would be limited to Frodo's vision in Galadriel's mirror) - the Scouring as it happened in the books wouldn't have fit in the film from an imagery standpoint. The destruction of the One is a catharsis moment where all evil is brought down. The Scouring wouldn't have made sense to a lot of casual watchers - it would have unnecessarily drawn the film out. The fact that they chose to ignore Saruman entirely for the theater release would have made it all the more out of place.

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Pippin singing that mournful Shire song to Denethor as the Steward stuffs his face, intercut with Faramir and the Gondorians riding to retake Osgiliath... so beautiful and sad I almost wept.

This sequence gave me chills. It's true, it's true.

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She doesn't say, "I am a woman." That, IIRC, is the only difference.

She says, and I quote, "I am no man." Which, of course, works a hell of a lot better than what you're suggesting.

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But yea, lots of unnecessary stuff at the end. It was funny in the theater, people kept clapping thinking (perhaps hoping) it was over, but then the movie continued. They waited half a minute, started to clap again, then it kept going. Waited a bit more then started to clap... happened like a dozen times. hehe

*sighs* If people would just READ THE GODDAMN BOOKS, they would know when it ends... and that's the other thing that bothered me. Every "spoiler" I read for ROTK claimed that the last scene of the movie would be Frodo disembarking the ship IN THE GRAY HAVENS. Hmmm. Extended version of the DVD, maybe?

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And that is why Jackson won't win Best Director even though other fanboys say what an injustice it is that he didn't win the other years.

It IS an injustice if Jackson doesn't win this year, because he deserves it for the body of the trilogy as a whole. If ROTK doesn't sweep Best Picture & Director it will be one of the massive Oscar screwjobs of all time. This was the problem the Academy got itself into when they gave it to A Beautiful Mind (which, to this day, I will contend was NOT a better movie than FOTR) two years ago.

Imran Siddiqui · December 22, 2003, 14:26

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Just like, 20+ years on, we're still watching Star Wars -- but the 1977 Oscar went to Woody Allen for Annie Hall.

Which was the best decision. Annie Hall was the better picture. Star Wars is the social phenomenon (but never deserved best picture).

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It IS an injustice if Jackson doesn't win this year, because he deserves it for the body of the trilogy as a whole. If ROTK doesn't sweep Best Picture & Director it will be one of the massive Oscar screwjobs of all time. This was the problem the Academy got itself into when they gave it to A Beautiful Mind

Ah, the fanboy speaks

. Believe it to be a screwjob, but I've heard of too many people saying how uneven this film was directorially for Jackson to win the award. He may not even get nominated from all the complaints about pacing.

Because of that, as well, it may not get Best Picture as well. And I wouldn't consider it an injustice at all. Just because fanboys are hopping mad doesn't mean the Academy has to give it an award.

And I own FOTR and have seen Beautiful Mind a few times. BM is FAR better of a movie. Sorry, that's just the way it is.

lord of the mark · December 22, 2003, 14:35

what with all this stuff about the pacing of the ending?

Havent seen the movie yet, but ISTR the book had 3 chapters from the destruction of the ring to the end - The field at cormallen(?), Scouring of the shire, and Many partings(?). Seems like the issues with the ending are due to all the folks seeing the movies who either never read or dont remember the book.

Can a director be faulted for sticking TOO closely to a book? (and a great book, this isnt Godfather we're talking about) Or does the fact that he made other major changes deprive him of this defense?

MrBaggins · December 22, 2003, 14:52

Depends how you look at it.

If you consider the parts to be separate and loosely connected... a la StarWars or Godfather, then I think that if you stick a 20 minute post script after the climax, then you've certainly got a pacing issue.

If you've got 9 hours of proceeding material in 3 acts and a number of disparate unresolved story lines, then I don't think 20 minutes is excessive.

The text "and they all lived happily ever after", would have been a massive disservice.

P.S. BM was not a FAR better movie. FotR was... and thats the way it is.

Arrian · December 22, 2003, 14:53

All this talk of awards is, to me, silly. I don't give a rats ass which movie wins the awards. I know what movie I prefer, and will purchase, and will watch years from now.

To me, FotR was far superior to A Beautiful Mind. It was also superior to RotK. But that's just me.

-Arrian

Imran Siddiqui · December 22, 2003, 15:12

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Seems like the issues with the ending are due to all the folks seeing the movies who either never read or dont remember the book.

Actually most of the complaints are from Tolkein fans who would have prefered the Scouring. The guys who didn't read the books apparently were confused. So it didn't work on two levels.

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BM was not a FAR better movie. FotR was... and thats the way it is.

Actually that isn't the way it is, because FOTR didn't win the Academy Award. For all the *****ing and moaning, Annie Hall WAS better than A New Hope (Star Wars IV). It's just that ANH has lived on longer because of the 'coolness' factor (I admit I like Star Wars better, but I consider Annie Hall the better film).