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Old December 15, 2003, 16:40   #1
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IBM Moving Skilled Jobs to India, China ...
Everyone:

I came upon this article while perusing Yahoo! and figured it might be of some interest to my fellow 'Poly posters. As per my usual practice, it's posted below in its entirety — contribute to this thread as you see fit afterwards.

***

Quote:
ARMONK, N.Y. — IBM Corp. plans to move up to several thousand skilled software jobs from the United States to India, China and other countries, which could amount to one of the biggest such actions yet in the technology industry.

IBM documents obtained by The Wall Street Journal said about 4,700 programming jobs could be shifted overseas to save costs, a growing high-tech industry trend known as "offshoring."

More than 900 people are already scheduled to be told of the move in the first half of 2004, while another 3,700 jobs have been identified as having the "potential to move offshore," the Journal said. IBM already has hired 500 engineers in India to take on some of the work that will be moved, the Journal reported.

The division affected is IBM's Application Management Services group, part of Big Blue's huge technology services division. The IBM facilities where workers could be replaced include offices in Dallas, Southbury, Conn., Poughkeepsie, N.Y., Raleigh, N.C., and Boulder, Colo.

IBM spokesman James Sciales said he would not comment on "internal presentations" but noted that most of IBM's work force, which now totals 315,000, has been overseas for years. Sciales also released a statement saying IBM expects hiring in the United States next year will match or exceed 2003 levels.

While companies long ago began moving manufacturing jobs and other blue-collar work to Asia, big business is now increasingly shifting skilled work there as well. According to International Data Corp., foreign workers performed about 5 percent of information technology services for American companies this year, but by 2007, that share will grow to 23 percent.

Often, the American workers being replaced are called upon to train their overseas replacements. The same will be expected of IBM employees whose jobs are being transferred, according to the Journal.

In a speech this fall, IBM chief Sam Palmisano defended the practice of going to Asian countries for skilled labor, saying those nations not only offer lower wages but also have invested heavily in education and modern communications networks.

He said the United States should respond with increased investments of its own to remain innovative.

"China, India, South Korea and other rapidly developing nations are replicating the structural advantages that historically have made the U.S. the center of innovation," Palmisano told the Council on Competitiveness in Washington on Oct. 30.

"We can't — shouldn't — regret improvements in other nations' competitiveness. Their people deserve to participate fully in the benefits of innovations."

IBM shares were up 57 cents at $93.28 in trading Monday on the New York Stock Exchange.
***

There are some quotes in particular that have my dander up. They are as follows:

Quote:
In a speech this fall, IBM chief Sam Palmisano defended the practice of going to Asian countries for skilled labor, saying those nations not only offer lower wages but also have invested heavily in education and modern communications networks.
That's what it comes down too, folks: lower wages and less job protection.

That crap about Asian countries investing more in their education and communication networks is just an attempt to deflect attention away from the fact that companies who relocate workforces to nations outside the Western world generally can get away with a lot more than they could at home when it comes to workers' pay and protections. Human resources are generally a company's No. 1 expense, and it saves big bucks when companies can pay less, offer reduced or no insurance and can fire employees at will with no recourse for those fired.

And don't tell me that the United States hasn't invested in its education and communications networks. We're at the top or near the top when it comes to that. Tell me again: How many medical breakthroughs does the United States produce each year? Technological breakthroughs? Useful inventions? Ideas? A lot, that's what. So, IBM, just admit the real reason for going to Asia: lower wages and less job protection for the workers over there.

Quote:
He said the United States should respond with increased investments of its own to remain innovative.
We're doing our part. Still, it isn't enough to keep companies like IBM from moving their workforces overseas. When it was the blue-collar jobs leaving, we were told that the United States would remain competitive in the white-collar jobs. Well, now those are leaving, too. I guess that leaves us as a more service-oriented economy, and even that isn't guaranteed (just look at all the customer service jobs hosted in India). Unless by "service" they meant fast-food jobs.

Quote:
"We can't — shouldn't — regret improvements in other nations' competitiveness. Their people deserve to participate fully in the benefits of innovations."
You know what? He's right! We shouldn't begrudge India and China for improving their abilities. What we should begrudge, though, are the companies that use that as a cover to move jobs over there. It's just "icing" covering the cake, which is the real reason for moving the jobs: lower wages and less job protection.

Until that changes — and I really don't think India and China have any reason to bring about change in that area, let alone IBM — the United States and other Western countries are going to be hard-pressed to keep their own well-educated citizens gainfully employed. Well, unless they're willing to take cuts in pay, cuts in job protection and less employer-sponsored insurance. Then they'll be competitive!

Anyway, gotta run off to work, where my employer still values me!

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Old December 15, 2003, 16:44   #2
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Don't forget the 10 year tax free holiday India gives companies that take jobs from America. All of these predatory trade practices other nations are engaged in are not really helping us.

Of course the alternative argument is that if we could just get rid of workers comp/clean air,water,soil/welfare programs/etc then we could compete is false as far as I'm concerned.
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Old December 15, 2003, 16:51   #3
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Par for the course. I'm not surprised Republicans are okay with this. What I want to know is when will the Democrats start raising hell about these jobs going offshore? Clinton democrats like Kerry don't mind, I know. But I would think Dean will make an issue of this as his campaign progresses...
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Old December 15, 2003, 16:53   #4
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Looks like you IT'ers are going to have pack your bags for Asia if you want a job.
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Old December 15, 2003, 17:04   #5
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BFG9000, the democrats have mentioned the trade agreements, but they are trying to get their base now, expect more about this after the primary. As for who would be for/against it, Republicans have been protectionists historically, only Nixon,Bush I and Bush II haven't been.
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Old December 15, 2003, 19:51   #6
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That crap about Asian countries investing more in their education
Oh PLEASE! Asians are a WHOLE LOT SMARTER than most Americans. Partially because the culture promotes it But don't even give me the "No they aren't!" line...I mean, the gap between American intelligence and Asian intelligence is astonishing.

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A lot, that's what.
Yes, and a lot of those tend to come from...immigrants!!! But then again, we all know the US is known for it's shutborder policy

I do hope more jobs get exported to these great nations. They need it, and quite franky we don't.
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Old December 15, 2003, 19:59   #7
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cheeper prices, employment in developing countries, better services. What is the problem?
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Old December 15, 2003, 20:04   #8
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http://maddox.xmission.com/c.cgi?u=walmart

The rant doesn't match exactly to this topic, but isn't too far off either and it pretty much states my opinion about this:

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If you lose your job to an immigrant, it's probably because he or she was willing to work harder for less money. Don't want to pay them full wages? Then don't hire them. If they do equal work, then they deserve equal pay. It's just that simple, and I'm not going to sit back like every other racist piece of **** *****ing about having to work harder because there's a little competition for my job, immigrant or otherwise.
Replace the word "immigrant" to a "foreigner".

It's funny that nobody seemed to give a **** about the working conditions (except Ned and a few others in the thread he made, but it seemed to concentrate after the first page to "is China a communist state" -arguement) in China BEFORE they started threatening the employement situation of the western countries.

Quote:
Asians are a WHOLE LOT SMARTER than most Americans
Americans are a whole lot smarter than most Asians. Point?

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cheeper prices, employment in developing countries, better services. What is the problem?
Agreed.
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Old December 15, 2003, 20:09   #9
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cheeper prices, employment in developing countries, better services. What is the problem?
Nothing!
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Old December 15, 2003, 20:12   #10
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there is alot of this argy bargy going on in the UK atm to, I just don't get it. For example, people have complained about culture rape because Indion Call CEnter workers have to ask about the weather and soap operahs.

If a call center opened in Shefeild, creating thousands of jobs, on the condition they asked weather it was sunny in mysore, would they feel they have some how had their culture 'raped?'
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Old December 15, 2003, 20:13   #11
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What kind of chicken **** ***** is afraid of competition? Can't get a job because you lost out to an immigrant? Well TOUGH ****. Nobody wants to pay you for your half-assed work if someone else can do it better.
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Old December 15, 2003, 21:13   #12
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Hey, guess what, whiners? There's a reason why they can get away with moving jobs to China, India, Swetshopistan, and the like. It's called CAPITALISM. If a guy down the street can do work for half the wages that your neighbor is doing, why should you keep your neighbor? You can fire your neighbor and hire the guy down the street. And if you're a good, moral businessman then you'll pass the savings on to the consumer.

(It's too bad that IBM won't do the latter).
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Old December 15, 2003, 21:19   #13
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Capitalism isn't the problem it is simply the obvious motivation. The problem is overly laxed laws which open markets without requiring environmental and worker protections. If the rich countries, who control the world's markets, all agreed to exclude the products from countries which don't provide adequate protections for workers then the other nations would have no choice but to agree to provide these protections for their workers.

Let’s have open markets but let’s require fair trade where everyone’s basic health and welfare is protected via environmental and worker protection laws.
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Old December 15, 2003, 21:24   #14
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It isn't my fault that the US doesn't require decency of India. Now, asking for that would be better than whining that IBM hates America and is shipping off jobs to Asia.
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Old December 16, 2003, 02:42   #15
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Quote:
Originally posted by mrmitchell
It isn't my fault that the US doesn't require decency of India. Now, asking for that would be better than whining that IBM hates America and is shipping off jobs to Asia.
Why do you mention only India? Why not China?
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Old December 16, 2003, 02:50   #16
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On one of the talk shows concerning our economy, one of the commentators made a point that I thought was startling. He said that we are in a risk of deflation even though the economy is growing fast because of India and China. Those two countries are providing lower-cost manufacturing and lower-cost services such as programming services to the United States (and the world) that are keeping US costs down across the board, so much so that they are causing strong deflationary effects in the economy as a whole.

In other words, we can expect strong economic growth with prices staying stable or even slightly declining for the foreseeable future. Interest rates should remain low and stable as well. These conditions are just amazing and unprecedented.
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Old December 16, 2003, 03:52   #17
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Hmm ... wasn't Alan Greenspan harping about the potential trouble that an extended period of deflation might cause? Not so much to consumers, but to manufacturers. I'd have to do some digging, but I'm sure he was going on about it earlier this year ('round spring or early summer).

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Old December 16, 2003, 04:00   #18
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Quote:
Originally posted by The Andy-Man
cheeper prices, employment in developing countries, better services. What is the problem?
Heh. Yeah, I agree with you about the employment in developing countries. But cheaper prices and better service? I guess it depends on how you define that, and the industry involved.

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Old December 16, 2003, 04:05   #19
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Quote:
Originally posted by The Andy-Man
cheeper prices, employment in developing countries, better services. What is the problem?
Increased unemployment in our own country --

sacrificing the economic well-being of many of our working-class citizens to exploit foreign workers --

short-sighted profit goals that may lead to long-term economic crisis.
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Old December 16, 2003, 04:10   #20
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cheeper prices, employment in developing countries, better services. What is the problem?
Agreed. Indian and Chinese workers are just as good (if not better) than US workers in this line of work. They are also cheaper. Why shouldn't the companies take advantage? Because they have to be patriotic and nationalistic? Bah!
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Old December 16, 2003, 04:14   #21
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How many Americans would be willing to trade a 40-hour work week at $20/hour for, say, a 50-hour work week at $10/hour? If your job was being exported overseas — despite you putting in the same quantity and quality of effort — would you do that in order to keep it?

I'll be honest: I'd seriously consider it. It'd be a helluva adjustment, but it might be doable.

I wouldn't be happy, and my spending power would be reduced, thus meaning my ability to contribute to the consumer economy would be reduced. Multiply me by "x" number of workers doing this, and I wonder what ripple effect it would have?

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Old December 16, 2003, 04:20   #22
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I haven't perused the article, but am I missing something when I think "How in the hell can they turn a call center into any more of a sweatshop than it is now?" or "What's the difference between codemonkeys in India and codemonkeys in America?". I can't see firms chaining people to desks like in textile factories in order to write database code. It's funny to see people feign concern for Indian call center workers whose day and workload probably differs with their American counterparts only in the amount of curry consumed.

The downside I see is the language/culture gap in interfacing with the home office and the American software engineers who write the important mission critical stuff.
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Old December 16, 2003, 04:26   #23
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The displaced American workers will do something else, perhaps manage the foreign workers. I found it interesting that American manufacturing is today producing more than it has ever in its history even though we have lost 3 million jobs to the like of China. Productivity!

Wow.

We have nothing to fear but fear itself!
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Old December 16, 2003, 04:38   #24
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One day management and executives are gonna go overseas, and then we'll be truly [bleep]ed.
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Old December 16, 2003, 04:48   #25
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Then who would invest in the companies?

Remember these corporations are owned by regular people and shares are driven up by demand. The idea that no one will have a good job in America because of outsourcing is silly.
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Old December 16, 2003, 11:31   #26
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Quote:
Originally posted by monkspider
Looks like you IT'ers are going to have pack your bags for Asia if you want a job.
Ha! Some of us already have!
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Old December 17, 2003, 12:41   #27
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Just as predicted, the overall inflation rate is now negative indicating we are in a slightly deflationary period. This unprecedented at a time when the economy is booming.

Last thing we should do is to try to kill the goose that lays the golden eggs in order to protect the jobs of a few Americans at the expense of vast majority of other Americans.

By the way, I think Lou Dobbs has all wrong. Certainly some manufacturing jobs are moving abroad. Some IT jobs are moving abroad because of the Internet. But overall employment is growing and economy is booming. This indicates that Lou is not correctly reporting the entire picture but is rather fear mongering. This kind of fear mongering has been going on for long as I can remember improbably for the entire time technology has been replacing labor.
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Old December 17, 2003, 13:25   #28
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Well, what do you expect? The shareholders point of view is the only one that matters to capitalism.

In time, it may be those Asian countries which are the destination of outsourced jobs will develop socialist movements to raise pay and conditions to balance things out.

Mean time, expect to see more third world conditions in your neighbourhood.
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Old December 17, 2003, 13:49   #29
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Originally posted by Cruddy
Well, what do you expect? The shareholders point of view is the only one that matters to capitalism.

In time, it may be those Asian countries which are the destination of outsourced jobs will develop socialist movements to raise pay and conditions to balance things out.

Mean time, expect to see more third world conditions in your neighbourhood.
Hey Cruddy, what the hell are you talking about. The Indians are socialist and the Chinese are Communist.
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Old December 17, 2003, 13:54   #30
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Hey Cruddy, what the hell are you talking about. The Indians are socialist
Really? How powerful are there unions? How much national insurance contributions do they pay? What about child workers, non-existent pensions and dental care that makes the UK look good?

Quote:
Originally posted by Ned
and the Chinese are Communist.
Strange kind of Communist that helps to support capitalism, eh?

Next you'll be saying the Chinese leadership are dedicated to overthrowing the capitalist system, don't take bribes and have their own people's best interests at heart.

Fact of the matter is, they're a corrupt bunch of greaselickers that don't even have to go through the democratic formality of getting elected.
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