{The List-} Cheats - Page 2

MattH · June 27, 2004, 13:28

The overview has been editied! Please continue to add your cheat-related thoughts.
A question: how many of you use the cheat mode to get ahead in the game?

Addled Platypus · June 27, 2004, 14:52

Never ever

I take my lumps. How else can one improve.

Master Zen · June 28, 2004, 21:14

No cheats please in MP or PBEMs.

However in SP mode I would very much there be a "cheat menu" like in Civ2 for editing since the Civ3 editor system was utter crap.

Apocalypse · June 28, 2004, 21:53

Well, if cheating is labeled or detectable somehow, then it wouldn't matter if it is allowed in MP or PBEMs because if someone cheats, you'd know.

Furthermore, one of the nice things about Civ2's cheating is that if you did cheat one or more times, it really didn't ruin the experience of future games. Heck, I cheated the hell out of my first couple games but stopped (largely because it wasn't fun) and ended up having a very fun many years of play. Do that with other games, and they are ruined.

Master Zen · June 28, 2004, 23:12

Quote:

Originally posted by Apocalypse
Well, if cheating is labeled or detectable somehow, then it wouldn't matter if it is allowed in MP or PBEMs because if someone cheats, you'd know.

Furthermore, one of the nice things about Civ2's cheating is that if you did cheat one or more times, it really didn't ruin the experience of future games. Heck, I cheated the hell out of my first couple games but stopped (largely because it wasn't fun) and ended up having a very fun many years of play. Do that with other games, and they are ruined.

The problem is that you could always reload from a past save so there would be no evidence of cheating.

That is why I disapprove of having a cheat menu in MP or PBEM play. With SP each person should decide what to do with their games and if they want to cheat, or use the cheat menu for other ends so be it (I for example, used the Civ2 cheat menu to check out F11 stats from various periods in time after the game was over, or to do things like gift cities to allies which was not allowed by the game mechanics).

Apocalypse · June 28, 2004, 23:15

Quote:

Originally posted by Master Zen

The problem is that you could always reload from a past save so there would be no evidence of cheating.

That is why I disapprove of having a cheat menu in MP or PBEM play. With SP each person should decide what to do with their games and if they want to cheat, or use the cheat menu for other ends so be it (I for example, used the Civ2 cheat menu to check out F11 stats from various periods in time after the game was over, or to do things like gift cities to allies which was not allowed by the game mechanics).

Then just make it possible to deactivate certain features. You don't need to take out the whole freaking thing.

Master Zen · June 28, 2004, 23:21

NO type of cheating should ever be permitted in MP or PBEM play, period. Please tell me what possible "cheat" features you'd like included in multiplayer?

mrmitchell · June 28, 2004, 23:32

Cheat features in single player - yes

Cheat features in multi player - NO NO NO

Apocalypse · June 28, 2004, 23:33

Cheats in Civs are useful for the same reason handicaps are useful in golf. Say some guy isn't good at building up quickly but you still want a competitive game. Give him two cities at the start, or an extra settler type unit. Or if someone just has an incredibly unfair and sucky starting position. Sometimes you like to make it so that they have to overcome that, but sometimes you want real competition.

Jonny · June 28, 2004, 23:37

A cheat menu (as in Civ2) should be included in SP mode, IMO. It can certainly be useful in helping newer players stay competitive while learning the game and for scenario editing purposes.

No cheat menu in MP, of course.

Master Zen · June 28, 2004, 23:43

Quote:

Originally posted by Apocalypse
Cheats in Civs are useful for the same reason handicaps are useful in golf. Say some guy isn't good at building up quickly but you still want a competitive game. Give him two cities at the start, or an extra settler type unit. Or if someone just has an incredibly unfair and sucky starting position. Sometimes you like to make it so that they have to overcome that, but sometimes you want real competition.

This is equally accomplished by editing the SCENARIO, doing it via a neutral person who is not in the game. This should not be able to be done in an already ongoing game which is why there should not be a cheat menu period in MP. You want to customize your game? Edit the scenario, not the save.

Many of the PBEMs started are made by 3rd persons who set up the game to be evened out among people. Moreso, I doubt there are enough example of people requiring "handicaps" to justify having a potentially game-ruining feature which can be exploited by people.

Apocalypse · June 28, 2004, 23:59

Quote:

Originally posted by Master Zen
This is equally accomplished by editing the SCENARIO, doing it via a neutral person who is not in the game. This should not be able to be done in an already ongoing game which is why there should not be a cheat menu period in MP. You want to customize your game? Edit the scenario, not the save.

Many of the PBEMs started are made by 3rd persons who set up the game to be evened out among people. Moreso, I doubt there are enough example of people requiring "handicaps" to justify having a potentially game-ruining feature which can be exploited by people.

No, it's not equally accomplished since you have to edit the scenario before the start of the game. If you play with people you trust, then you can have the cheat option avalible. If you don't, deactivate it. You don't need to screw anyone else over.

And Jonny, Titans suck

Master Zen · June 29, 2004, 00:33

Give me ONE compelling reason why would feel required in using a cheat menu to edit an already begun started MP game, something that couldn't be done with editing a scenario from the start.

Apocalypse · June 29, 2004, 00:35

Why don't you read my previous post?

Master Zen · June 29, 2004, 00:54

I did and you are still not answering my question: Give me one good reason why a cheat in MP should be included when all the game-balancing issues that you mention are and SHOULD be done instead from the start when editing a scenario? Again, give me ONE good reason why you would feel compelled to cheat to edit a MP game mid-way?

Apocalypse · June 29, 2004, 01:05

Quote:

Originally posted by Master Zen

I did and you are still not answering my question: Give me one good reason why a cheat in MP should be included when all the game-balancing issues that you mention are and SHOULD be done instead from the start when editing a scenario? Again, give me ONE good reason why you would feel compelled to cheat to edit a MP game mid-way?

Quote:

Or if someone just has an incredibly unfair and sucky starting position.

MattH · August 9, 2004, 12:41

Bump-bump!
The deadline is approaching so I've updated the list. I'll create a poll later to finalize the opinions.

Kuciwalker · August 9, 2004, 13:26

The MP map generator is designed to create fair starting positions.

Apocalypse · August 9, 2004, 16:50

Quote:

Originally posted by Kuciwalker
The MP map generator is designed to create fair starting positions.

You know there is no guarantee.

Kuciwalker · August 9, 2004, 22:18

If it's that bad, restart.

DarkCloud · August 10, 2004, 11:25

Thanks for the summary Matt

MattH · August 10, 2004, 11:50

Quote:

Originally posted by DarkCloud
Thanks for the summary Matt

I'll have it in the accepted format by the deadline.

OliverFA · August 13, 2004, 08:06

Quote:

Originally posted by Sore Loser
I'm not sure if this belongs here, but I'd like to see an Ironman mode as in SMAC where you're not "allowed" to reload.

[...]

The same line of thought can be applied to the discussion about the cheat menu. I'd like the option to turn the cheat menu off when setting up a game, so I won't feel the temptation to sneek peek at the locations so I can see where to found my cities. This should please everyone and is extremely easy to implement.

This is a very good idea. Much more effective then the super-mega-deity-emperor-of-gods difficulty level. The "reload" spell is way too powerful. It would be a great idea to have a checkbox that turned the reload option off and would make the game a lot more challenging to lot of people (yes, me included. I recognize it).

MattH · August 13, 2004, 10:17

That's a good idea... I can't believe I forgot to add that .

DarkCloud · August 13, 2004, 11:35

probably because of the controversy...

MattH · August 13, 2004, 11:44

Should we also include a list of all the cheat commands that we'd like?

DarkCloud · August 13, 2004, 11:50

well, I'll admit, your summary is a bit sparse- but just a general overview of what type of cheating is necessary could be sufficient- such as new commands...

You could mention (all the cheats from Civ II and III) plus these new ones.

please list the new ideas... but you don't have to list every specific Civ II and III one if you don't want to.

-DC

Apocalypse · August 13, 2004, 12:42

Quote:

Originally posted by OliverFA

This is a very good idea. Much more effective then the super-mega-deity-emperor-of-gods difficulty level. The "reload" spell is way too powerful. It would be a great idea to have a checkbox that turned the reload option off and would make the game a lot more challenging to lot of people (yes, me included. I recognize it).

So like the ironman option in SMAC....

MattH · August 13, 2004, 12:56

List of Proposed Cheats:
- Enable / Disable
- Switch between game / cheat mode (see Appearance of the Cheat Menu below)
- Open / Close / Save scen.
- Place:
--- Start loc.
--- Terrain
--- City
--- Unit
--- Improvement
--- Goody Hut
--- Barbarian camp
--- Resource / etc.
--- Location based trigger
- Edit:
--- Start gold
--- Current gold
--- Start year
--- Current year
--- Attitude
--- Status of relation (war, fixed alliances, etc.)
--- Current trades
--- Triggers / Scripts
--- Object positions (units, cities, overlays, etc.)

Appearance of the Cheat Menu:
Since the majority of contributors suggest that cheats be used primarily for scenario editing, I propose that what was the "cheat menu" in previous games become an in-game editor with a layout similar to the editor in Age of Empires or RON: the menu structure is transformed into in palette containing drag-and-drop units, terrain, etc. This or its appropriate translation (to make it fit into whatever cIV user interface) would be far superior than drop down menus or consoles featured in prevous Civ/other games.

Please add your own suggestions and cheats!

Apocalypse · August 13, 2004, 13:09

Quote:

- Place:
--- Start loc.
--- Terrain
--- City
--- Improvement
--- Goody Hut
--- Barbarian camp
--- Resource / etc.
--- Location based trigger

Aren't we forgetting Unit?