Kansas ACLU - Whoopie

Berzerker · December 15, 2003, 19:31

Baldwin City - a local minister dressed up as Santa last year and went to a school to hand out presents and he asked children what Christmas meant, and a child stood and said, Jesus birthday. OUCH! Enter the Kansas ACLU...we can't have that!

"How would a Buddhist or Muslim child answer that question"?

That was the rationale from an ACLU rep...

Well, I'd hope they would say the same thing. Of course, if they're ignorant because the ACLU doesn't want children to be taught the basis for religious holidays when the holidays are Christian, they won't know that. What would a Muslim child say if I asked for the meaning of Ramadan?

I don't know, I was sent to public schools in the USA...? Well, no, I'm sure children are being taught about Ramadan...

Carry on wayward son...

chequita guevara · December 15, 2003, 19:34

Would you try and make some sense?

Berzerker · December 15, 2003, 19:42

Would you try to be specific or does the entire post confuse you?

Notice how I blamed you?

Drogue · December 15, 2003, 19:48

I'm about the staunchest Atheist I know, yet that seems like going to far. The question, nor answer, implied belief in Jesus as God's son, nor God himself. I think the ACLU blow some things out of proportion. Teach the basis of these stories by all means, as long as their not taught as history, but as a study of religions, that is fine. I only have a problem when they are told that this happened, as a hard fact, as opposed to that this religion believes this.

Oerdin · December 15, 2003, 19:51

Discussing the origin of religious holidays is not the same as endorseing a religion.

Berzerker · December 15, 2003, 21:03

Glad others aren't confused

Kuciwalker · December 15, 2003, 21:10

I'd bet the official had actually been hoping for something like "the spirit of giving" or something similar, too.

MrFun · December 15, 2003, 21:14

I saw this on CNN -- this is another example of extreme PC run amok.

If you don't celebrate Jesus Christ's birth, fine -- just let me and other Christians, who do, alone.

PEACE

Spiffor · December 15, 2003, 22:15

Skywalker:
I think you have the best avatar I've ever seen on 'Poly yet

Everyone:
How far can this crap go? Is it sometimes possible in the US to do or say something without outrageing anybody, and without getting a trial on the heels?

OzzyKP · December 15, 2003, 22:51

I wonder if it was some PC sounding crap that the USSR used to justify their ban on religion.

"Well if we allow anyone to practice their faith, then that will just divide and offend others, thus to be fair to everyone we must force everyone to be athiest."

Looks like the US is heading that way. Damn athiest fundimentalists.

Patroklos · December 15, 2003, 23:03

Jeez, between the "Athiest Fundementalists" and the acutual Fundementalists, Christian Muslim or otherwise the world is going to hell.

-Pat

Kuciwalker · December 15, 2003, 23:35

Quote:

How far can this crap go? Is it sometimes possible in the US to do or say something without outrageing anybody, and without getting a trial on the heels?

Short answer: no

Long answer: yes, but only if no one hears you

Kuciwalker · December 15, 2003, 23:35

Quote:

Originally posted by Spiffor
Skywalker:
I think you have the best avatar I've ever seen on 'Poly yet

Thanks

monkspider · December 16, 2003, 01:01

It's time for a proletariot revolution to topple this immoral and corrupt Kansas ACLU. No longer shall we be ruined by corrupt tax collectors, or ruled by mad kings. The state of Kansas must be free to pursue it's own destiny, God go with us.

-edit I love your avatar too, Skywalker.

Drake Tungsten · December 16, 2003, 01:04

Quote:

It's time for a proletariot revolution to topple this immoral and corrupt Kansas ACLU.

There is no proletariat in Kansas, with the possible exception of Wichita.

monkspider · December 16, 2003, 01:06

Quote:

Originally posted by Drake Tungsten

Quote:

It's time for a proletariot revolution to topple this immoral and corrupt Kansas ACLU.

There is no proletariat in Kansas, with the possible exception of Wichita.

Well maybe not, but surely there is enough of one to topple the Kansas chaper of the ACLU.

Drake Tungsten · December 16, 2003, 01:09

True enough.

orange · December 16, 2003, 01:38

What's the difference...there is ZERO factual evidence to show that Jesus was born on Dec. 25th, and he sure as hell wasn't born in the year "0"

Sorry, but it doesn't belong in a school. Plain and simple.

Drake Tungsten · December 16, 2003, 01:45

Quote:

Sorry, but it doesn't belong in a school. Plain and simple.

So you're supportive of this attempt to excise any discussion of the biggest holiday of the year from schools?

orange · December 16, 2003, 01:51

no, not at all. But why does a Santa need to come in and talk about the reason we celebrate Christmas? If you want to have a discussion about the origins of Christmas, you can start with the pagan festival of Yule and then talk about the Roman's incorporation of Christianity and its hijack of that holiday to represent the birth of Christ. If you want them to learn the version of Christmas where Jesus was born in a manger and three kings came and the star led them to the spot blah blah blah you can teach it in a church, a private school, or the home.

Berzerker · December 16, 2003, 01:52

I agree Jesus probably wasn't born on Dec 25th, highly unlikely in fact, say 1/365 chance without even considering Jewish practices concerning cleanliness, i.e., the proper time of the year to conceive, which also lead us away from a December birth, but nonetheless, it is the day adopted for the celebration. And since we don't know what day he was born, any day is as good as another, especially considering other traditions of the time, 3 days after the winter solstice makes as much sense as any other day. But to say "it" doesn't even belong in school is going too far, after all, the kids are getting 2 weeks off because of "it".

Berzerker · December 16, 2003, 02:03

Quote:

But why does a Santa need to come in and talk about the reason we celebrate Christmas?

Because the school seemingly can't?

Seriously, what's the big deal? A local minister hands out gifts dressed as Santa and people object to him asking why Christmas is observed but not that he's handing out gifts dressed as Santa?

Quote:

If you want to have a discussion about the origins of Christmas, you can start with the pagan festival of Yule and then talk about the Roman's incorporation of Christianity and its hijack of that holiday to represent the birth of Christ. If you want them to learn the version of Christmas where Jesus was born in a manger and three kings came and the star led them to the spot blah blah blah you can teach it in a church, a private school, or the home.

So schools shouldn't teach the origins of the various main religions? That leaves a pretty big gap in their educations... Of course mysticism will be part of such a discussion, many religions have their origins shrouded in mystery or miracles, that doesn't mean children can't still learn about them.

Drake Tungsten · December 16, 2003, 02:04

Quote:

But why does a Santa need to come in and talk about the reason we celebrate Christmas?

To teach the kids about a major holiday?

Besides, in this case Santa was there to hand out presents, not to teach the kids anything, so I don't see what the big deal is.

Quote:

If you want to have a discussion about the origins of Christmas, you can start with the pagan festival of Yule and then talk about the Roman's incorporation of Christianity and its hijack of that holiday to represent the birth of Christ.

You really think elementary school kids are going to understand that?

MrFun · December 16, 2003, 02:42

Quote:

Originally posted by orange
no, not at all. But why does a Santa need to come in and talk about the reason we celebrate Christmas? If you want to have a discussion about the origins of Christmas, you can start with the pagan festival of Yule and then talk about the Roman's incorporation of Christianity and its hijack of that holiday to represent the birth of Christ. If you want them to learn the version of Christmas where Jesus was born in a manger and three kings came and the star led them to the spot blah blah blah you can teach it in a church, a private school, or the home.

This loses sight that Christmas is essentially a Christian holiday to celebrate the birth of Jesus Christ, doesn't it?

orange · December 16, 2003, 03:04

Quote:

And since we don't know what day he was born, any day is as good as another, especially considering other traditions of the time, 3 days after the winter solstice makes as much sense as any other day. But to say "it" doesn't even belong in school is going too far, after all, the kids are getting 2 weeks off because of "it".

Kids are not getting 2 weeks off to celebrate the birth of Christ. If it was truly about that, they'd be getting off for the few days surrounding it and that's it. Why two weeks - because it's a part of Western Culture. The winter holiday, while dressed up as a time of religious worship, is really just an age old tradition that got dolled up by the Church to be acceptable and to discourage the drunken orgies that used to accompany this time period.

Quote:

Because the school seemingly can't? Seriously, what's the big deal? A local minister hands out gifts dressed as Santa and people object to him asking why Christmas is observed but not that he's handing out gifts dressed as Santa?

The school shouldn't be able to project a holiday or a religion onto the children, no. A local *minister* coming in to a public school asking children about the celebration of Christmas is not necessary in a school environment. Further, it marginalizes those children who are not religious, or Christian, and don't celeberate Christmas.

What I find ever more ironic is that the minister dresses up as SANTA CLAUS to talk about the TRUE meaning of Christmas. Give me a break.

Quote:

So schools shouldn't teach the origins of the various main religions? That leaves a pretty big gap in their educations... Of course mysticism will be part of such a discussion, many religions have their origins shrouded in mystery or miracles, that doesn't mean children can't still learn about them.

They should. But if they're going to do it, they should do it factually. That's kinda what a school is for, or so I'm told.

Quote:

You really think elementary school kids are going to understand that?

Well instead we should lie to them about Santa Claus giving presents to everyone in the world, Jesus being born in a manger on Dec. 25th in the year 0, and Christianity being the accepted religion of the nation as evidenced by public schools. Muucccch better

Quote:

This loses sight that Christmas is essentially a Christian holiday to celebrate the birth of Jesus Christ, doesn't it?

Well of course, that's what it is ideally. But what is it really? Modern commercialism with strong roots in paganism. The main point is that there is no reason that Santa Claus should be speaking on any religion - he's not a figure representative of Jesus Christ's birth, he's a modern invention and bastardization of the St. Nicholas of lore. If he wants to be in a school handing our presents - fine. He can leave religion at the door.