Has the time come for a revived CSA?

[MrFun]

Originally posted by PLATO


Good Lord...You really don't have a clue about today's South, do you?

Actually, I'm more informed about the history behind the rise of the "Lost Cause" mythology than many Southerners.

It rose as a political agenda during and after Reconstruction, and was based on white supremacy.

In fact, during the Jim Crow era, the "Lost Cause" mythology glorified the Ku Klux Klan in the late nineteenth century through the early twentieth century. They used this mythology of the "Lost Cause" to justify lynching, segregation, and economic/political subjugation of blacks during the Jim Crow era.

Also, by the 1890s, the "Lost Cause" mythology became an infatuation among many white Northerners as well. Tragically, the North won the war, but the South won the peace when the two sections reconciled with one another in the fraternal spirit of white supremacy.

Pro-Confederate organizations from the 1880s onwards sought to advance their political agenda of putting forward their twisted version of the historical causes of the Civil War. The "Lost Cause" mythology is based on several things:

1) the Ku Klux Klan was a necessary organization for justice

2) blacks were happy as slaves in antebellum America until Yankee abolitionists poisoned their weak minds with the corrupt idea of freedom

3) Reconstruction was a time of bayonet rule when corruption and incompetence from Republicans ruined the South, thus, the overthrow of Reconstruction was the South's victory over the North, and reestablishing a more traditional racial order -- Jim Crow laws


The fact is, the "Lost Cause" mythology was never hi-jacked; from the beginning, it was a political agenda movement to put forward an inaccurate version of the Civil War's history and the history of Reconstruction.

Unfortunately, many people today who embrace this mythology are ignorant about all the above information.

[chequita guevara]

MrFun is correct, though I would say that most Southerners are willfully ignorant about their history.

Southern historical denial is just like Japanese denial about WWII.

[MrFun]

That's true Chegitz -- maybe I was being too lenient.

But there are others who are unwittingly ignorant, without being deliberate.

[DinoDoc]

Originally posted by chegitz guevara
There are still lynchings here.

Where do you live again?

[MrFun]

I think the real tragedy behind the aftermath of the Civil War, is that Americans never really healed from the war.

We began healing from the Civil War through sentimental, romantic, superficial reconciliation through the fraternal spirit of white supremacy by the late 1880s without confronting issues of race relations.

That tragedy is still with us -- Americans are still confounded by race relations and one of the reasons is because we healed from the Civil War without justice.

[Patroklos]

Che, that may be your opinion, but Jacksonville, or Florida period, is hardly a litmus for the rest of the South. I have lived in four southern states (Virginia, Georgia, South Carolina, and Florida) and my family is from the North. I myself was born in RI. I have more than enough perspective in the matter, at least more than you.

The statement that there are still lynchings is a little unfare. I can't help it if a single white person decided to brutally kill a black man with his pickup truck. However, I bet you bottom dollar racial violance is worse in the North and West than it is here, and it has been that way for a very long time.

Racial disparity has no benifit for the majority population. However, it is a very useful to hide behind if your a minority. Does racism exist, sure it does. Is it anywhere near as epedemic as reactionaries and cause nazis maintain. Nowehere near. And of the racism that does exist, it mostly originates in the minorities. Racism is not just hating or loving something becasue of racial bias, it is thinking in racial terms period. And unfortunetly racial thinking is at the forefront of most minority initiatives.

For the record, white people very rarely discuss how we can oppresse the coloreds anymore. It think It has been at least three days sense my last KKK rally, man I am slacking. But you know, I realized that spending 23 hours of my day sneering at minorities on the corner was really a waste of my time. I really don't know how white America accomplished anything in the last 140 years since the Civil War with our intense hatred schedule. It must be due to our racial superiority (I hope they don't find out I'm an Irish Catholic!).

I just thought I would let you all know how the Southern white males think. Amazingly it is exactly what you imagined

-Pat

[Ned]

Originally posted by chegitz guevara


I see a handful, Ned. Furthermore, with the exception of Powell and Rice, most of them are actualy treated as tokens by the Repug party, pulled in for photo ops and then ignored and excluded most of the rest of the time. Even then, Powell and Rice are ignored when it comes to race politics. I am reminded of the time that the White House lied about Connie Rice being opposed to Affirmative Action in education, where upon she herself released a statement saying she supported taking race into consideration in academic access.

Powell, however muchhe may be admired by America, is treated like a red-headed step-child by the Repug party, and for the life of me, I can't see why he doesn't resign (probably because he doesn't want to risk letting the neo-cons have total control).

I think you are simply ignoring that Colin Powell was the overwhelming favorite for the Republican nomination in '96 and Condi Rice is a being talked about as a presidential candidate in '08.

This is not tokenism. No black in the Democrat party has ever been anywhere near the presidential ticket, let alone being its favorite.

And, just let me add here, that if Colin Powell runs in '08, he wins. He gets my vote as well.

[Ramo]

What universe are you living in? Powell didn't run for the nomination in '96.

And you might've heard of a bloke named Jesse Jackson. He finished 2nd to Dukakis in the '88 primary. This was a real campaign that has actually happened (as opposed to Powell and Rice).

[David Floyd]

And if Jackson beat Dukakis, Bush Sr. would have trounced him worse than he did Dukakis, if that's possible

[Ramo]

That's not the point. Ned said blacks have been closer to the Republican nomination than the Democratic nomination, which is clearly false.

[Patroklos]

A Democtatic presidential candidate is not a position, he is quite literally just a candidate for one. Especially since he had no chance of winning the general election, ot was just part of dog and pony show for the black vote (gotta keep them happy, and poor too).

DANCE JESSIE DANCE!!! dance for your democratic white masters. Oh hell, he is messing it up, just give me the strings...

-Pat

-Pat

[MrFun]

One of the other interesting things about post-Civil War reconciliation was that the veterans reunions of the late 19th century and early 20th century that included Northern and Southern soldiers excluded black veterans too many times.

This was only part of the superficial reunion that sought to forget the reasons behind the Civil War.

[Ned]

Originally posted by Ramo
What universe are you living in? Powell didn't run for the nomination in '96.

And you might've heard of a bloke named Jesse Jackson. He finished 2nd to Dukakis in the '88 primary. This was a real campaign that has actually happened (as opposed to Powell and Rice).

True, he withdrew his name from consideration. But still, he was the favorite and could have had the nomination if he wanted it.

THAT tells anyone who is fair a lot about the Republican Party.

[Ned]

Originally posted by Ramo
That's not the point. Ned said blacks have been closer to the Republican nomination than the Democratic nomination, which is clearly false.

RAMO, you are not being intellectually honest here. Powell was closer in actuality because he was way ahead in the polls when he pulled out.

[MrFun]

Originally posted by Patroklos
I really don't know how white America accomplished anything in the last 140 years since the Civil War with our intense hatred schedule. It must be due to our racial superiority (I hope they don't find out I'm an Irish Catholic!).

-Pat

We really haven't accomplished that much in terms of race relations -- read my posts for the reasons why it may be the case that we have accomplished less than we realize in terms of race relations.

In spite of all the legislated laws and amendments, we are still confounded by race relations and part of the reason is the "Lost Cause" mythology.

[chequita guevara]

Originally posted by DinoDoc
Where do you live again?

The South. There was a lynching of a black kid who was dating the white sheriff's daughter ni a small Florida town just recently.

[chequita guevara]

Originally posted by Ned
RAMO, you are not being intellectually honest here. Powell was closer in actuality because he was way ahead in the polls when he pulled out.

In '96, Powell hadn't decided which party he would run in.

Pat,
Jacksonville is not Florida. It is South Georgia. Ask any native Jacksonville cracker, this ain't Florida. It's onya historical accident that has us on the wrong side of the border. For some unkown reason, these people are proud of it.

[Ned]

Originally posted by chegitz guevara


In '96, Powell hadn't decided which party he would run in.

Huh?

Where did this come from?

Powell did not let his party affiliation be known until after he had left the government. Then he said he was a Republican. He was mulling running for the Republican nomination for some time before he withdrew his name.

[chequita guevara]

Originally posted by Ned

Huh?

Where did this come from?

In case you hadn't noticed, many of Powell's views are significantl out of touch with the Republican Party. He himself has said he is a social liberal and a fiscal conservative. In '96, he was trying to decide whether to run in the Republican Party or as an independent.

[Ned]

Originally posted by chegitz guevara


In case you hadn't noticed, many of Powell's views are significantl out of touch with the Republican Party. He himself has said he is a social liberal and a fiscal conservative. In '96, he was trying to decide whether to run in the Republican Party or as an independent.

Che, any person who can gain the party's nomination is not significantly out of step with the party. However, the point at issue here is not his positions, but his race.

[Patroklos]

Yeah...sure.....Jacksonville isn't in Florida...

Well, that pust alot of your other posts in perspective.

-Pat

[MrFun]

Patroklos -- did you read what I said about the legacy of our nation's race relations?

[Patroklos]

Racism will never be over until certain minorities realize that more than anything else, their problems are of their own design and only they can solve them. Blaming other people for crap might make you feel better about yourself, but in the end you do not accomplish anything.

And I agree Mr. Fun that race relations have not so much improved, as much as their character has changed. However, I contend that unlike before when racism was primarilly based in the majority and then reacted too by the minority, today it stems from the minority ans is reacted to by the majority. It must be gauking to some activists that despite the obvious reversal on mainstream racial opinions in the last 50 years, all the legal protection, and all the great civil rights leaders in the past, they have all the same problems. And if a colored person happens to be successful they are then ostrisized?

Watch any late night BET news show and there is only one story, white people are hating on us. Black man struck by lightning, fault of white man. Bush signs social security bill, which is a disguised plot against the black man by the white devil. Volcano errupts in India, obviously the white mans doing.

-Pat

[MrFun]

Yes, there are blacks who are racist who hate whites.

And there are those who claim there is racism when there is none (prosecution of Kobe for instance).


But my point was that the racism within white society has its legacy from the "Lost Cause" mythology -- and if you want to go even further back, with slavery itself in the early modern era.

[Patroklos]

Well then Mr Fun, since 500 years from now people will still be claiming your theory, why don't we just break out the shackles now and get it overwith, since according to some white people will never change.

The "Lost Cause" theory is a lost cause. It is a way to attribute racist tendancies to whites who desplay no such traits, and thus label them racists without any evidence. I hear alot of activists say about the flag, "get over it, the war was 140 years ago and you lost." Well I take the opposite, get over it, "Slavery was ended 140 years ago and you won the civil rights war, move on." A litte oversimplification, but constatly insisting that whites are racists when in fact it is YOUR minority that is, well, makes white racists. The open civil rights portion of the war is over (alothough Jackson and Sharpton don't like to hear that, as they are old war horses), and a new phase in in effect. The phase where the external enemy is at the very least marginalized and now you can focus on cleaning your own house.

-Pat

[MrFun]

Interesting how people want to accuse me of claiming that racism is only regional -- exclusively within the South, when I have already explained how reunion in the spirit of white supremacy involved white Northerners and white Southerners.


And also remember that I already explained that one can possibly not be a racist, and still adhere to the "Lost Cause" mythology, but only because they are ignorant of the how the "Lost Cause" emerged.

When I discuss the "Lost Cause" mythology, I have no interest in claiming that racism is exlusively a Southern phenomenon.

[GePap]

As I have said half a dozen tmies, good riddens! We don;t need those poor states sucking of the fruits of blue state labor! Off with them!

As for racism: nice factoid, A white person with a misdemeanor conviction is more likely to get a call back after an interview than a black person with no record (and if you are a black male, that is an accomplisment of sorts in this society). Yup, sounds like the struggle has ended to me!

[chequita guevara]

Originally posted by Patroklos
Yeah...sure.....Jacksonville isn't in Florida...

Well, that pust alot of your other posts in perspective.

-Pat

Have you ever lived here? It may say Florida on our address, but this ain't Florida. Jacksonvile Magazine recently had a peice about the ten best things about this town. One of them was "When people say we're more like South Georgia than South Florida, we take that as a compliment." :shudder: The wife of one of the people I go drinkin' with said she liked that about Jax.

[Patroklos]

I am sure it has nothing to do with education, dress, manors, attitude etc.

Your example is just another case of ignoring all other factors but race when things don't go your way.

Mr Fun, by last post had nothing to do with regionalism, the flag comment was just an example, nore is it an example restricted to the south.

You lost cause theory is a circular arguement. If they are not racist and white, then they are part of it. If they are racist and white they are part of it. They are a part of it if know it, they are if they don't. If they choose not to be a part of it, they are still included. So just how do you get out of it Mr Fun, becasue me obviousy denying it just means I am ignorant of my inclusion.

-Pat

[chequita guevara]

You're really quite ignorant when it comes to race, Pat.