Has the time come for a revived CSA?

[GePap]

Originally posted by Patroklos
I am sure it has nothing to do with education, dress, manors, attitude etc.

Your example is just another case of ignoring all other factors but race when things don't go your way.

:LOL:

So being a convicted criminal should matter so little? What does it say of your intelliegence, manors, attitude and so forth?

I am sorry, but the answer is too ridiculous!

[Imran Siddiqui]

Actually most employers really don't care about misdemenors. Felonies raise alarums, but misdemenors are really nothing important. After all, running a stop sign is a misdemenor.

[TCO]

Originally posted by chegitz guevara


So sue me. I have to be true to myself, which is why I subscribe to nonLeninist cult.

wimp.

[chequita guevara]

Them's fightin' words.

[TCO]

Originally posted by Patroklos
Che, that may be your opinion, but Jacksonville, or Florida period, is hardly a litmus for the rest of the South. I have lived in four southern states (Virginia, Georgia, South Carolina, and Florida) and my family is from the North. I myself was born in RI. I have more than enough perspective in the matter, at least more than you.

The statement that there are still lynchings is a little unfare. I can't help it if a single white person decided to brutally kill a black man with his pickup truck. However, I bet you bottom dollar racial violance is worse in the North and West than it is here, and it has been that way for a very long time.

Racial disparity has no benifit for the majority population. However, it is a very useful to hide behind if your a minority. Does racism exist, sure it does. Is it anywhere near as epedemic as reactionaries and cause nazis maintain. Nowehere near. And of the racism that does exist, it mostly originates in the minorities. Racism is not just hating or loving something becasue of racial bias, it is thinking in racial terms period. And unfortunetly racial thinking is at the forefront of most minority initiatives.

For the record, white people very rarely discuss how we can oppresse the coloreds anymore. It think It has been at least three days sense my last KKK rally, man I am slacking. But you know, I realized that spending 23 hours of my day sneering at minorities on the corner was really a waste of my time. I really don't know how white America accomplished anything in the last 140 years since the Civil War with our intense hatred schedule. It must be due to our racial superiority (I hope they don't find out I'm an Irish Catholic!).

I just thought I would let you all know how the Southern white males think. Amazingly it is exactly what you imagined

-Pat

There is a lot more racism and violent racism by blacks against whites than the reverse. And they feel justified in it from the "payback" mentality. Look at the OJ trial.

[GePap]

I will endevour to find the study:

Here is a lighter one:

http://papers.nber.org/papers/w9873

Just remember, use 'white' names.

[chequita guevara]

Yer ignorant too.

[GePap]

and another one:

http://www.kirwaninstitute.org/press...report-pr.html

[Patroklos]

Che,

I find normally that when people resort to name calling on this forum it is because they have nothing releveant to say. There is no denying that the most racist group in America is the black community. But I will respond in your spirit and simply call you a racist, because race is obviously the number one motivation in your thought process, and is shows.

And your naive

-Pat

[Patroklos]

Awesome,

A single study from some organization within the University of Ohio with obviously self serving goals. I like that they only considered one factor, race. By definition making them racists. It really is dispicable that the cause nazis can sucker people like youerselves into believing mis represented and interpreted numbers. It may be corrrect (as I don't have the time or inclination to go to Ohio and prove them wrong), but I bet I could produce a study that says the opposite. Only I would have to go to creditable sources like law enforcement and brain trusts that don't have their alterior motive advertized in their title.

Also, you normally don't know what race someone is when you pull them over, so how do you explain that?

-Pat

[GePap]

Man, poor whitey taken down by the man!

When African Americans are:

More likely to lack access to adequate healthcare, and thus die of chronic diseases at higher rates

More likely to be stopped byt he police, more likely to be convincted, get higher penalties for the same crimes as white, and share a disproportionate burden of the death penalty

Less likely to get call backs from job interviewers

They certainly will feel equal!

You can pontificate all you want, but those that say racism still exists against blacks have all the statistics, the hard cold evidence to back them up.

[chequita guevara]

Originally posted by Patroklos
Che,

I find normally that when people resort to name calling

I wasn't name calling. I was simply stating a fact. You are ignorant on matters of race. You really don't have a clue. You have your "facts" which don't actually correlate with the real world and don't seem int4rested in learning anything that contradicts them. That's ignorance.

[Patroklos]

Not so,

merely that people struggling to fing anything, ANYTHING, to blame for their problems but themselves have nothing better to to by make up numbers.

Look at you two, not even entertaining the thought of adding any other variable to your racist stances. How about class, how about culture, how about linguistic differnaces. Don't give you the results you want though so we skip those.

So many black people have abandoned the weight of self pity and made things of themselves, it is called taking responsibility for your state and problems, regardless of where they come from, and driving on. Not that I understand why they try becasue once they break out from the pathetic "racist" fixation, well then your an Uncle Tom.

-Pat

[MrFun]

Originally posted by Patroklos

You lost cause theory is a circular arguement. If they are not racist and white, then they are part of it. If they are racist and white they are part of it. They are a part of it if know it, they are if they don't. If they choose not to be a part of it, they are still included. So just how do you get out of it Mr Fun, becasue me obviousy denying it just means I am ignorant of my inclusion.

-Pat

Ok, let me clarify so even you can understand.


Whenever the issue of slavery came up in antebellum America, white Southern leaders who supported slavery or were slaveowners themselves would counter that the federal government had no business in interfering with their plantation system, through the ideology of states rights. States rights were used quite often to argue for defense of slavery and white supremacist ideology.

During and after Reconstruction, the "Lost Cause" mythology sought to emphasize the so-called horrors of Reconstruction by claiming that the federal government imposed bayonet rule over the individual states.

However, along with that part of the "Lost Cause" mythology, is the other component that supports white supremacy. Read "Lost Cause" literature written by white Southerners in the late nineteenth century and early twentieth century -- you will not have difficulty in finding explicit claims of racial superiority of whites when they were advocating the "Lost Cause" ideology.


Today, many white Southerners who support the "Lost Cause" mythology may not be explicitly racist, but they simply picked and chose part of the "Lost Cause" ideology that appeals to their sensational, emotional, romantic views of the Civil War and Reconstruction -- which is states' rights.

But by doing that, they are being willfully, or undeliberately ignorant about the other fundamental component of the "Lost Cause" mythology, which is white supremacy.

And because many white Northerners sought to reconcile with white Southerners, they "reunited" through the fraternal spirit of white supremacy. In this aspect at least, the North won the war, but the South won the peace.

[Dr Strangelove]

So I guess it has been decided: it's just not a good time to revive the good ol' CS of A. Being that it's best buddies, slavery and segregation, have passed beyond the vale, there's just no reason to go out and call forth the spirits of Jeff, Preston, JEB, Stonewall and Nathan, for truly their era has passed. Will we ever see the likes of them again? Let's hope not. But until that time remember this one thing: Billy Yank died for your sins, Johnny Reb.

[Patroklos]

Who the hell are you Che, other than some bum stuck to your comp in Jack and then thinking you have any more perspective on anything than anyone else here.

If you wish to argue about something then I'll spar, but don't ever think that you are anything but another anonymous poster, exxpressing your ideas (though wrong ones) like anyone else.

And your racial views are obsolete and archaic.

-Pat

[MrFun]

Patroklos -- I answered your last post.

[GePap]

Originally posted by Patroklos
Not so,

merely that people struggling to fing anything, ANYTHING, to blame for their problems but themselves have nothing better to to by make up numbers.

Follow the links I provided-yeah, those people just made those numbers up!

Look at you two, not even entertaining the thought of adding any other variable to your racist stances. How about class, how about culture, how about linguistic differnaces. Don't give you the results you want though so we skip those.

Those studies did take all other factors into account-they found race still was the independent variable that mattered. Of course, there is also a deep correlation between race and class in this country, which only ADDS to the racial divide.

So many black people have abandoned the weight of self pity and made things of themselves, it is called taking responsibility for your state and problems, regardless of where they come from, and driving on. Not that I understand why they try becasue once they break out from the pathetic "racist" fixation, well then your an Uncle Tom.

-Pat

I don;t even know which smiley to use for this one. Many very succesful blakc sgot there while acknowledging the existance of, and fighting against racism.

It is up to you to offer one, single, solitary, miniscule study done that backs up anythign you say: just one.

[Patroklos]

Mr Fun,

I see what your saying, anit it wa probobly the case back in the day, but the modern South or thr rest of America, has no link to that theory. It is entirely possible to believe in states rights and not be racist or subscribe to your theory. Slavery is ONE states rights issue, albiet an important one, of many.

-Pat

[GePap]

The people who deny the existance of racism always use the same tired lines- and can never show any evidence for their claim that people in this country still do not ignore race when making decisions.

Are whites the most racist? No, hispanics are racist against blacks, blacks against hispanics, people are still racist period-whites just happen to be the majority and the ones with, due to history, the power and the money, so thier actions and their racism affects other groups more.

[Patroklos]

GePap, already read your links, as was plainly stated in the last post (Univeristy of Ohio), and no their explanation of other variables was far from adaquate.

I never stated racism does not exist, only that it is one of many variables that most attribute far too much weight too.

You all are a little more dedicated to surfing the web for weblinks (hardly academic sources) to prop up whichever view you choose, which in the case of Che depends on hour. I am simply responding during study breaks. So no, I am not going to link you to a worhless website and if you wish to declare victory over that, well, go right ahead

-Pat

[GePap]

Your arguements have become tired. Oh, you don;t have time so you can find studies..well, interestingly people with your arguement never can. Funny how it always works out that way, no?

NOw, sadly I don;t have access to Lexis Nexis or Jstor, or I could use real academic sources..maybe you can and find a 'real academic' one to use to validate anythign that you have said?

Probably not, still just on study breaks...

The funy thing ebign you call websites "worthless', yet all you offer is bland luke-warms words about "not blaming anyone else" and other stuff-fluff basically. And yet somehow that should carry more weight than a study? Sorry, i missed were you, in an academically rigid way found that race was a minor factor...please point it out.

[PLATO]

Never ceases to amaze me that the Yankees keep wanting to turn a debate about a free South into a debate on racism. That fact alone shows how truly ignorant of the South they are.

[MrFun]

Originally posted by Patroklos
Mr Fun,

I see what your saying, anit it wa probobly the case back in the day, but the modern South or thr rest of America, has no link to that theory. It is entirely possible to believe in states rights and not be racist or subscribe to your theory. Slavery is ONE states rights issue, albiet an important one, of many.

-Pat

So at this point we just agree to disagree??

[Patroklos]

GePap, when Apolyton becomes an international database of academic sources I will feel obliged to spend time digging up things to prove points to people I neither know no care about convincing either way on any issue.

As it is, Apolyton is an informal gathering of peope to talk about whatever they want. I can't say I am not impressed you went the extra mile to find something to back out what you say, but it is not nessecary or required. I don't lend any more credit to your arguement because of a newspaper type article you dug up on yahoo. I find it even more absurd becasue I never stated racism doesn't exist. In fact I really don't disagree with anything you said, I just find it amazing you refuse to take anything but race as a factor, or at least that you put such imphasis on it over other variables.

Anyways, this all started because of some attack someone made of the Southerns, which is by all accounts neither fair nor warrented. As it is, your very article was from Ohio.

-Pat

[chequita guevara]

Originally posted by Patroklos
Look at you two, not even entertaining the thought of adding any other variable to your racist stances. How about class, how about culture, how about linguistic differnaces

Actually, this wasn't a discussion about class or culture. It's the same reason I didn't bring up religion or cheese. They weren't bein discussed.

[Patroklos]

Well, I suppose I could specifically mention everything, since abstracts like "variables" are beyond you.

[chequita guevara]

Originally posted by Patroklos
Who the hell are you Che, other than some bum stuck to your comp in Jack and then thinking you have any more perspective on anything than anyone else here.

-Pat

On racism, I clearly have more perspective than you. A) I worked for anti-racist groups for over a decade, B) a majority of my family is Black, and I can see how they are treated differently, C) I lived in a neighborhood where Black people were shot at and firebombed by white racists, D) I lived in a Black neighborhood where the cops would randomly harrass everyone but me (being the only white person, E) I notice how I get treated differently when I'm alone or with Black or Hispanic folks, F) I watch my friends get followed in stores, G) I listen to people tell me about crap that happens to them.

[chequita guevara]

Originally posted by Patroklos
Well, I suppose I could specifically mention everything, since abstracts like "variables" are beyond you.

The intersection of class and race isn't as easy an excuse for you as you'd like to believe. While it's true, that Black people are more likely to be in the lower class than whites, and less likely to be in the upper class than whites, even within classes, there is a major difference between how people are treated. There is a reason why there is such a phenomenon as "middle class Black rage."

Why are successful Black people so angry about racism, if it's just an issue of culture or class? After all, they're successful. But when Oprah Winfy is denied access to a private boutique she saw a white women enter ten minutes before, I don't think the major issue is class. Class is not an alternative to race oppression, it is in addition to race oppression.

But like I previously wrote, it's really pointless to try and debate you, because you're willfully ignorant.

[Patroklos]

I never stated racism does not exist, only that it is one of many variables that most attribute far too much weight too.

And you are willfully illiterate.

-Pat