History experts needed (Narvik Campaign)

Eivind IV · December 16, 2003, 12:41

I am currently working on a scenario covering the two battles of Narvik. The books I rented at the library was crap and told nothing of the units fighting in those battles, only that it was captured by the allies and then recaptured by the Germans - again.

I've searched the net and never found the orders of battles I am looking for. So does anyone posess any great knowledge about this and can help me out choosing units and such?

Thanks!

Case · December 16, 2003, 18:22

You're in luck: the good folks at Hyperwar have digitalised the offical British history of the Norway Campaign, putting it up on the net at: http://www.ibiblio.org/hyperwar/UN/U...way/index.html As well as going into absurd levels of detail on the operations in Norway, the history includes more maps then you can poke a stick at (this being a feature of all the British Offical Histories). The hyperlinked index is also a nice feature, and should make compiling the German OOB a breaze

The Allied OOB will be even easier to compile: there's an apendix listing all the Allied units involved at: http://www.ibiblio.org/hyperwar/UN/U...-Norway-B.html

As a bonus, the book is aparently out of copywrite, meaning that you can use any of the maps and photos as you see fit. For example, this aerial shot of Narvik would make a nice title picture:

Case · December 17, 2003, 02:13

BTW, the detailed OOB of the German 3rd Mountain Division, some of which fought at Narvik, is available at www.expage.com/3gebirgsdiv

Eivind IV · December 18, 2003, 05:40

Thanks, Case! I've seen thos pages before and they're great! This information is very thorough, maybe it would be better if I concentrated on a mere Weserübung scen? Would there be a marked for such a scenario everyone?

Case · December 18, 2003, 07:30

Quote:

Originally posted by Kobra
This information is very thorough, maybe it would be better if I concentrated on a mere Weserübung scen? Would there be a marked for such a scenario everyone?

I'd be very interested.

If you haven't seen it, I half-completed a scenario on the Norwegian/Scandinavian campaing of 1940, and it's available on my website (see the link in my profile).

Boco · December 18, 2003, 08:11

Cyrion · December 18, 2003, 08:44

Yep, interested too!

Eivind IV · December 18, 2003, 13:24

(Yes, I have that scenario, Case

)

Great, I'll get started ASAP!

It would make my job a lot easier if all you experts would give me some pointers on what units to use and such!

So don't be self-conscious, come out of the closet and come along!

Boco · December 18, 2003, 18:12

Who does the human play?

Coastal Batteries!

Eivind IV · December 18, 2003, 18:47

Quote:

Who does the human play?

Good question! Havn't quite figured that out yet. It would maybe be too easy to play from the German side, yet if you play as the allies, then the AI Germany will for sure make many stupid moves.

Could it be an idea to make it a multiplayer scen, and in that way keep the historical integrity and perhaps make it possible to repell the invasion?

I made quick draft to the map btw. It's far from finished. Is it possible to somehow make it bigger as in hight? I stretched it to the limit in MapEdit.

Case · December 18, 2003, 18:49

Quote:

Originally posted by Boco
Who does the human play?

Coastal Batteries!

...and moose cavalry

Seriously, here are some unit ideas:

British:

Independant Company (the pre-war commandos)
Conscript Infantry (poorly trained and led)
Regular Infantry
Royal Marines
Destroyer
Light Cruiser
Heavy Cruiser
Battlecruiser (the HMS Renown from memory)
The various classes of battleships modeled individually? (probably not essential)
Submarine
Hurricane Fighter
Whatever aircraft the RN was using (Fulmars?)

French

Alpine Troops

Polish

Erm, Polish troops (I suspect that they had a more fancy name

)

Norwegian

Regulars
Reservists (who appear a few turns into the scenario, giving the Germans time to grab undefended cities. Like Oslo

)
Bicycle Infantry
Mountain Infantry
Police?
Armoured Car
Coastal Defence Battleship
Torpedo Boat?

German
Paratroopers
Glider Infantry
Mountain Infantry
Regular Infantry? (I'm not sure if the Germans did actually send any regulars to Norway)
Panzer Company (I think the Germans only sent a company's worth of some kind of obscure tank to Norway)
U-Boat
Minesweeper
Destroyer
Light Cruiser
Heavy Cruiser
Pre-Drednaught
Pocket-Battleship
Battlecruiser
JU-87
HE-111
ME-109
JU-88? (there weren't many JU-88s at the time, and they may have been kept in reserve for the attack on France).

BTW, if you haven't seen the page, there's lots of useful stuff at: http://www.nuav.net/articles.html

Eivind IV · December 18, 2003, 18:56

Now we're talking! Thank you very mucho, Case!

Eivind IV · December 18, 2003, 19:00

Quote:

(I think the Germans only sent a company's worth of some kind of obscure tank to Norway)

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm pritty sure there was some pz Is and IIs after they secured Oslo. They proved very unuseful though when advancing northwards to the mountainranges.

http://www.nuav.net/panzer.html

(A couple of weeks ago I also listed a ton of links to 'weser sites': http://www.cdgroup.org/forums/tbs/ci...opic.php?t=304 )

Case · December 18, 2003, 19:10

That's a very nice set of links!

Would you be interested in copying and pasting it at: http://www.historic-battles.com/yabb...x.php?board=76 ?

Quote:

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm pritty sure there was a respectable amount of pz Is and IIs after they secured Oslo.

No you're right, and I'm wrong. I was only aware of the inital wave of tanks, and didn't know that the Germans landed any more.

Eivind IV · December 18, 2003, 19:17

Sure thing!

EmuGod · December 18, 2003, 20:08

Finally a scenario where I can conquer evil Norway!

Eivind IV · December 19, 2003, 02:43

Quote:

Originally posted by EmuGod
Finally a scenario where I can conquer evil Norway!

Eivind IV · December 19, 2003, 06:01

Quote:

Originally posted by Case
...and moose cavalry

Just saw this one as well!

fairline · December 19, 2003, 08:52

This sounds interesting, Eivind. Are you going to focus just on Narvik, or the whole of the Norway campaign?

Case - you have British conscripts listed: at this stage of the war the 3 (?) brigades of infantry sent to Norway would surely have been regulars. The Territorial divisions were still not committed to battle when France was invaded a short while later, although some were sent to France as labour battalions. In fact, weren't a brigade of Guards sent to Norway?

All of this musing is fairly academic, as the British and French performed poorly compared with the better trained and led German units, with the possible exception of the action at Narvik itself.

BTW, the Polish troops were a mountain brigade (I think) equipped and organised by the French. Not sure what the Polish name for this unit was....

Eivind IV · December 19, 2003, 14:16

I was about to focus on the Narvik campaign, but then I changed my mind

. I have a great map for a future Narvik campaign though, with lots of fjords and everything

. This one will be about the invasion of Norway...

You would be more than welcome to make some units for this one, btw Gareth

. Hehe, no pressure!

You guys are the history experts I was requesting! I would be very thanklful if you'd help out!

Now I'm going to take the weekend! Have fun go mad! Cheers

Case · December 21, 2003, 00:31

Quote:

Originally posted by fairline
Case - you have British conscripts listed: at this stage of the war the 3 (?) brigades of infantry sent to Norway would surely have been regulars. The Territorial divisions were still not committed to battle when France was invaded a short while later, although some were sent to France as labour battalions. In fact, weren't a brigade of Guards sent to Norway?

You may be right... The timeframe is rather short for any of the conscripts to have been considered battle-ready, even by the panicked and incompetant British authorities. From memory though, the force which was originally trained and equiped to go to Norway ended up somewhere else, with the forces that actually went being rushed together in a matter of days(!).

Case · December 21, 2003, 05:56

I just checked Correlli Barnett's brilliant book Engage the Enemy More Closely and he states that the main British Army formations sent to Norway were the 24th Guards Brigade (to Narvik) the 146th Territorial Brigade (to Namos) and the 148th Territorial Brigade (to Andalsnes). All the brigades were without most of their artillery and engineers, and, critically, very few AA guns were sent with the force. These brigades were supported by the usual collection of Royal Marines, naval landing parties, Independant Companies and other eccentric odds and ends that always seem to go hand in hand with Britain's military ****-ups.

As Barnett describes it, the Norwegian Campaign was 'a Churchillian Disaster' brought about by his tendency to apply ad-hoc piecemeal fixes to critical problems.

fairline · December 21, 2003, 06:12

I stand corrected! That accounts for the better performance of the British at Narvik if the Guards Brigade was sent there. There was one regular brigade as well: 15th Brigade were sent to Norway as well, according to my source book.

Note to Eivind: if you are wondering which troops in the British OOB should be conscripts (Territorials) or regulars, the 1st and 2nd Battalians of a regiment were regular while battalians numbered 4 and higher from the same regiment would be conscripts.

Case · December 21, 2003, 19:45

Quote:

Originally posted by fairline
There was one regular brigade as well: 15th Brigade were sent to Norway as well, according to my source book.

Yeah, and if I'd bothered to check the Allied OOB I posted myself I would have spotted it

(Barnett's book deserves the plug though - it really is brilliant)

Quote:

conscripts (Territorials)

Weren't the Territorals reservists, and not conscripts?

Eivind IV · December 25, 2003, 18:21

Just to keep the interest up

Some ski troops...

Eivind IV · January 1, 2004, 10:33

I'm fearing this scen will be too lopsided...what do you guys think?

Eivind IV · January 1, 2004, 13:13

German bicycle inf

Eivind IV · January 1, 2004, 14:21

@Fairline: Would I be rude if I asked you of help with making some of the units listed above? Like all those different infantry's for example...

Please let me know if you think I'm stepping on your toes now...

Case · January 1, 2004, 18:31

Quote:

Originally posted by Kobra
I'm fearing this scen will be too lopsided...what do you guys think?

I think that it could be well balanced - if you set it up so that if the Norwegians have the opportunity to fully mobalise their army if they can hold out for the first few turns, then they should be able to win. The Norwegian campaign was a big gamble for the Germans, and if they'd had worse luck (and the British been competant) then it would have ended in disarster.

Eivind IV · January 2, 2004, 11:09

Very well!

When naming the cities, should I exclude the letters 'ø (oe)' and 'å (aa)'? Those are not English letters I mean...

BTW: I've made a giga Norway map, so there will be enough space to romp on