History experts needed (Narvik Campaign) - Page 3

Eivind IV · January 13, 2004, 18:41

Ah, that explains a lot! I should have thought about that when I saw his sleeve folded

Quote:

I'll draw a mountain trooper if you like.

Fairline, draw to the cramps take you!

You would surely leave me grateful.

Arthedain · January 13, 2004, 18:46

Fairline: While you're at it, a regular polish infantry unit woul be nice to

fairline · January 14, 2004, 14:17

Will do - first I have to draw a big plane and some arab gentlemen....

Eivind IV · January 17, 2004, 12:38

I have sort og ran out of ideas for units. Anyone care to give me some pointers?

This is what I go this far:

Norwegian/Allied civ:

British:
Pre-war commandos
Conscript Infantry
Regular Infantry
Guard's Brigade
Field Artillery
Blenheim
Mine
Hurricane
HMS Rodney (Btls)
HMS Repulse (Btls)
HMS Furious (Carrier)
Hunt Class Destroyer
Town Class Destroyer
HMS Exeter (Btls)
HMS Warspite (Btls)
HMS Valiant (Btls)
HMS Renown (Btls)
(Heavy Cruiser
Light Cruiser)
Motorised Inf
Cavalry
Machine Guns

French:
Chasseurs Alpins
Legion Etrangere (French Foreign Legion)
Light Tank

Polish:
Polish Mountain troops.

Norwegian:
Ski troops
Sykkelrytter (bicycle inf)
Cavalry
Road Obstruction
Stronghold
Anti Air Batt.
Panserskip
Gloster Gladiator
Coastal Battery
Mitraljøse (Machine Guns)
Ca-110

German civ:
Maschinengewehr (Machine gun inf)
Schützen (Regular inf)
Radfahrschwadron (Bicycle inf)
Gebirgsjäger (Mountain troops)
Fallschirmjäger (Airborne inf)
Panzerkampfwagen I
Panzerkampfwagen II
Opel Blitz
Artillerie #1
Artillerie #2
He-111
Me-109
Me-110
Ju-87
Ju-88
Ju-52

DKM Gneisenau
(DKM Schleswig Holstein
DKM Hindenburg
DKM Königsberg. These will most probably be replaced by a generic german heavy and light cruiser unit)

Minesweeper
Zerstörer (Destroyer)

Generic:
Engineer Corps
U-Boat
Transporter

BTW: Should I go easy on the native names for the different units?

Eivind IV · January 19, 2004, 18:50

Ok, I'm on the inlet side now and will have this finished within a week (maximum!).

The only thing I have left is placing the units, which will be easy since I have a book telling me all of the placements

, and I must do the last finish on the rules.txt.

I would prefer it if those who are interested in reciving the beta version bumped in here now and enroled, it will then be in your PM box shortly . .

POTUS · January 19, 2004, 19:05

I'd like to try it.
Will it be mutiplayer?

Arthedain · January 19, 2004, 19:12

I'd like to try it too Eivind

Eivind IV · January 19, 2004, 19:25

Great to see some response, and so quickly!

Quote:

Will it be mutiplayer?

That's one of the parts I havn't figured out yet. I think I will go for the multiplayer version first, then I might do a SP version for both sides.

Civs are btw:
Norwegians/Allies
Germans

Boco · January 19, 2004, 20:02

Quote:

Will do - first I have to draw a big plane and some arab gentlemen....

I don't think I'll need the gentlemen before Saturday. Don't forget to leave out some of Auda's teeth.

curtsibling · January 20, 2004, 19:53

Quote:

Originally posted by Arthedain

EEK!

I wish i could draw units like that..

My wish also!

Arthedain · January 21, 2004, 09:17

Haha Curt, you can already draw/tweak very nice units

Eivind IV · January 21, 2004, 11:37

Yeah, nice try, curt!

You the man!!

fairline · January 21, 2004, 13:28

Quote:

Originally posted by Boco
I don't think I'll need the gentlemen before Saturday. Don't forget to leave out some of Auda's teeth.

Should have something ready by Thursday / Friday, D.

Did Auda have no teeth!?

@Curt:

As the guys already said, you can.

@ Eivind: I haven't forgotten about the German Mountain trooper - I'll get round to him in a while.

Eivind IV · January 21, 2004, 16:19

Great!

I have a problem. Well, really not a problem but a challenge. I was encouraged by Case to represent the campaign on batallion level:

Quote:

Battalion would probably be the best choice, - with 6(?) divisions this would give the Germans 60 odd infantry units. If you went with companies the Germans would have 180+ units which is probably unmanageable.

Well, I have the order of battle in front of me. There is a very thorough description of the different German and Allied divisions. My question is; How many inf battalions are there in an inf regiment?

Like this for instance (3. Gebirgsdiv):
1.Welle, Wehrkreis XVIII (Salzburg) Generalmajor Eduard Dietl Narvik, Trondheim :
Geb.Jäger-Regiment 138
Geb.Jäger-Regiment 139
Geb.Artillerie-Rgt 112 (except IV.Abt., sFH)
Geb.Panzerjäger-Abt. 48
Geb.Aufklärungs-Abt. 68
Geb.Pionier-Bataillon. 83
Geb.Nachrichten-Abt. 68 ¨

And how should I represent all the other regiments, if at all?

fairline · January 21, 2004, 16:47

There were 3 battalions in a Gebirgsjager Regiment. Do you mean represent the other battalions in the Division? If so, yes in the case of the artillery and possibly recce (Aufklarungs) bns.

Eivind IV · January 21, 2004, 17:15

A thousand thank you's Fairline!

The three batallion thing, does that apply for regular infantry regiments as well? And is the Allied brigade the same as the German regiment?

Do you have an Aufklärung (however that looks like) unit under your sleeve, Fairline?

EDIT: used bicyle units and cavalry for those jobs

Boco · January 21, 2004, 18:33

Sometimes strictly accurate OOB's translate to very a very infantry-heavy mix. One distortion that many have used is to represent infantry with a larger unit (e.g. regiment) and tanks, recce, arty, etc with a smaller one (e.g. battalion). Helps to emphasize combined arms tactics.

I'll go out on a limb and say most regiments/brigades had 3 bns at this early point in the war. On the other hand, sealift constraints may have reduced the bn count.

If you don't have a bn level OOB, and can't live without it, I could dig up an ancient bn-level boardgame on the campaign (I didn't really offer that, did I?

)

Eivind IV · January 26, 2004, 08:58

Quote:

Originally posted by Boco
If you don't have a bn level OOB, and can't live without it, I could dig up an ancient bn-level boardgame on the campaign (I didn't really offer that, did I?

)

I think you did!

@Case (or anyone else for that matter): Would you mind telling me a bit more on those goto events? Are there any guides made on that issue?

fairline · January 26, 2004, 13:46

Quote:

Originally posted by Kobra
Do you have an Aufklärung (however that looks like) unit under your sleeve, Fairline?

EDIT: used bicyle units and cavalry for those jobs

Aufklarung = recce unit. In a 1940 Mountain Division these were bicycle units with 1 squadron of horses as you say.

If you want to go to town on the other divisional units, then use the following:

Panzerabwehr Bn: 37mm Pak 36 + 20mm AT guns (I have a unit for the former in my CDG forum)

Mountain Arty Regt: 3 Bns of 105mm guns + 1 Bn 150mm

Each infantry Bn had a heavy company with 80mm mortars and 75mm field guns

It's worth noting that the British infantry brigades were sent without their parent 49th Division's organic artillery and AT component, which can't have helped them much!

Eivind IV · January 26, 2004, 21:29

Thanks for the input!

I have placed all land forces for Norway and Germany, as well as sea units for Britain and Germany, and are now moving over to placing air units. My only problem is that I don't know how I should interpret this OOB of the Luftwaffe. To make it as accurate as possible, like I did with the land and sea forces, how should I represent the Luftwaffe?

My main source for OOBs: http://hem.fyristorg.com/robertm/nor...reference.html

(I am using He-111, Me-109, Me-110, Ju-87, Ju-52 (air transport) and the Fallschirmjäger for the Luftwaffe).

Eivind IV · January 27, 2004, 10:21

The work has gone to a halt due to this

. Some pointers would be very much apreciated.

Eivind IV · January 27, 2004, 21:03

Jim Panse was a doll and helped me out!

fairline · January 28, 2004, 04:39

I guess Jim Panse has explained this already then, but just in case:

a Staffel was equivalent to an RAF Squadron = c. 12 aircraft

3 Staffels (I,II + III) + HQ = Geschwader equivalent to an RAF Wing.

JG = Jagdgeschwader or fighter wing - Me109s at this time
ZG = Zerstorergeschwader (destroyer wing) - Me110s
KG = Kampfgeschwader (bomber wing) - Do17/He111/Ju88
StG = Stukageschwader (I'll let you figure that one out

)

You could make 1 Staffel = 1 Civ unit in the OOB you have linked to. By the looks of it, there were 15 bomber Staffels and 3 Stuka Staffels earmarked for the campaign together with 4 ZG and 1 JG staffels of fighters.

curtsibling · January 28, 2004, 07:07

Germany had the coolest words to describe their military organisations!

'Oberkommando Der Wehrmacht' and 'Reichsfahrtministerium' spring to mind!

Eivind IV · January 28, 2004, 07:40

Quote:

Originally posted by fairline
I guess Jim Panse has explained this already then, but just in

You could make 1 Staffel = 1 Civ unit in the OOB you have linked to. By the looks of it, there were 15 bomber Staffels and 3 Stuka Staffels earmarked for the campaign together with 4 ZG and 1 JG staffels of fighters.

He sure did!

According to his estimates I should have 7 Me-110s, 3 Me-109s, 15 HE-111s, 2 Ju-87s and 28 Ju-52s

.

Doesn't that sound about right when 1 civ unit is 1 Staffel?

Quote:

Originally posted by curtsibling
Germany had the coolest words to describe their military organisations!

'Oberkommando Der Wehrmacht' and 'Reichsfahrtministerium' spring to mind!

Ja, Deutsch ist eine Spaß sprache!

skipper · January 28, 2004, 09:52

yes, we have a lot of these nice words:

"Oberkommando der Wehrmacht"
Armed Forces High Command

"Oberbefehlshaber der Kriegsmarine"
Commander-in-Chief of the Kriegsmarine

(Admirals Raeder and Dönitz)

"Reichsluftfahrtministerium" was Görings state aviation ministry

but the best is
"Ritterkreuz des Eisernen Kreuzes mit Goldenem Eichenlaub, Schwertern und Brillianten"
Knight's Cross of the Iron Cross with Golden Oakleaves, Swords and Diamonds

fairline · January 28, 2004, 13:45

Quote:

Originally posted by curtsibling
Germany had the coolest words to describe their military organisations!

'Oberkommando Der Wehrmacht' and 'Reichsfahrtministerium' spring to mind!

I guess 'cool' depends on whether you were in the Wehrmacht or on the receiving end of their Blitzkreig. Personally, 3rd Reich militarism and military jargon gives me the creeps

'Minister of Reich farting' sounds like a cool job description, though

fairline · January 28, 2004, 13:57

Quote:

Originally posted by Kobra
According to his estimates I should have 7 Me-110s, 3 Me-109s, 15 HE-111s, 2 Ju-87s and 28 Ju-52s

.

Doesn't that sound about right when 1 civ unit is 1 Staffel?

Not by my reckoning:

The OOB you linked to lists the following:

I/ZG 76 + I,II,III ZG 1 = 4 Staffels of Me110

II/JG 77 = 1 Staffel of Me109

I,II,III/KG 26 + I,II,III/KG 4 + I,II,III/KG 30 + KGr.100/KG 26 + KG40 = 15(?) Staffels of He111 (and Do17/Ju88?)

I/St.G 1 +(II,III/ St.G 1 ready to assist?) = 1 (+ 2?) Staffels of Stukas

I make that 4 Me110s, 1 Me109, 15 bombers, 3 (?) Stukas

fairline · January 28, 2004, 14:06

BTW, I have ignored the Stabs element of each Geschwader, which IIRC was the same size as a Staffel and therefore adds another Staffel to every 3 listed...... However, the OOB does not make it clear if the Staff 'squadron' for each partial Geschwader listed was present in the campaign, so I guess its best to leave them out.

jim panse · January 28, 2004, 17:01

@ Gareth: i supposed the Roman number before the name of the unit to be the Groups which consisted of 4 squads each. Correct me if I am wrong.