History experts needed (Narvik Campaign) - Page 4

fairline · January 28, 2004, 17:25

The Roman numerals are the Staffel number of each Geschwader. As an example, JG 26 (fighter wing/group 26) consisted of Stabs/JG 26, I/JG26, II/JG26, III/JG 26 - ie HQ and 'squadrons' I, II and III.

jim panse · January 29, 2004, 05:32

Ok. Thanks for that advice.

Case · January 30, 2004, 06:12

Quote:

Originally posted by Kobra
@Case (or anyone else for that matter): Would you mind telling me a bit more on those goto events? Are there any guides made on that issue?

I don't *think* that there's any guide. Some basic points though are:

1) The AI doesn't like using them and will ignore them at the first opportunity.

2) In particular, every time a significant event occurs (ie, a city is captured or a unit is destroyed) the AI seems to 'forget' the goto orders.

3) As a result, you need to include events reinforcing the goto order several times in each turn. ie, have an event where every time a unit is destroyed, the goto order is issued. In the Cruel Sea, every time the Germans sink a common British ship an event is triggered where the goto orders are reissued to the British. This results in the orders being continiously reissued, especially at times when the AI tends to forget them.

4) Furthermore, goto orders seem to only work effectively when the units are ordered to move in roughtly the same direction that the AI would move them anyway. They work so well in The Cruel Sea and Red Front because all the AI cities are at the left of the map and all the enemy human cities are at the right of the map. If the goto events weren't there, the AI would still send most of it's 'attack' role units to the east. The goto events just increase the percentage of such units which are sent and directs which part of the east the units end up in.

5) Goto orders aren't delicate instruments. They're useful in getting a ship from New York to London or a Panzer from Kiev to Stalingrad, but don't work well in terrain with higher densities of cities and the like.

6) Using sucessive goto orders to direct units on more complex, non-linear paths is very tricky to achieve but is possible.

7) As such, goto events should be considered a useful means of directing a flood, and not any kind of a precision instrument.

I hope that that helps

Case · January 30, 2004, 06:16

Quote:

Originally posted by fairline
The Roman numerals are the Staffel number of each Geschwader. As an example, JG 26 (fighter wing/group 26) consisted of Stabs/JG 26, I/JG26, II/JG26, III/JG 26 - ie HQ and 'squadrons' I, II and III.

Am I correct in thinking that the geschwader was the equivalent to an Army regiment, with the squadrons being battalion equivalents? (as they are in Soviet-pattern air forces)

fairline · January 30, 2004, 13:15

A Staffel was more or less equivalent to an RAF (or RAAF!) Squadron, ie 12 - 16 planes. IIRC this was subdivided into Rotte (Sp) of 4 aircraft each, which corresponded to an RAF Flight. I guess the Army equivalent of Staffel would be a Squadron of Cavalry or a Company of Infantry. A Geschwader was the loose equivalent of an RAF Wing, although the former was a fixed formation whereas different Squadrons in the RAF would constitute a given Wing at various times of the War. I suppose the Army equivalent to a Wing / Geschwader would be a battalion.

I suppose this stacks up when you consider a Squadron leader was equivalent to an army major and a Wing Commander was equivalent to a Lt Colonel. The Luftwaffe commanders of the Staffel and geschwader were 1 rank lower IIRC, ie Hauptmann for a Staffel and Major for a Geschwader.

Eivind IV · February 2, 2004, 15:04

I need another word of advice; Should I place the german units in Denmark? If they are, and transported to Norway, it will be way too easy for the germans.

Case · February 3, 2004, 07:25

Quote:

Originally posted by fairline
A Staffel was more or less equivalent to an RAF (or RAAF!) Squadron, ie 12 - 16 planes. IIRC this was subdivided into Rotte (Sp) of 4 aircraft each, which corresponded to an RAF Flight. I guess the Army equivalent of Staffel would be a Squadron of Cavalry or a Company of Infantry. A Geschwader was the loose equivalent of an RAF Wing, although the former was a fixed formation whereas different Squadrons in the RAF would constitute a given Wing at various times of the War. I suppose the Army equivalent to a Wing / Geschwader would be a battalion.

OK, thanks for that.

BTW, why the exclamation mark empahsising RAAF squadrons? I'll have you know that the RAAF had over 50 squadrons from late 1942 onwards, and ended the war as the fourth largest air force in the world (not counting the USN as seperate and after the Luftwaffe and an Japanese air forces were destroyed

).

Quote:

I need another word of advice; Should I place the german units in Denmark? If they are, and transported to Norway, it will be way too easy for the germans.

If the scenario is intended for play against computer Germans, then have the Germans start off in Denmark, as this will make the scenario work better. Otherwise, have the Germans start as close to their historical locations as is practical.

Eivind IV · February 3, 2004, 08:04

Quote:

Originally posted by Case
If the scenario is intended for play against computer Germans, then have the Germans start off in Denmark, as this will make the scenario work better. Otherwise, have the Germans start as close to their historical locations as is practical.

I have placed all units in their historical locations, with some minor improvisations here and there to better the game play.

I'm now as good as finished, just doing the last polish over the events file and rules file.

I just have one last question:

Quote:

Royal Air Force:

Most allied air missions over Norway was by RAF-units from the British mainland and Orkney, and by the Fleet Air Arm, from the carriers. The following air-force units were based in Norway at one time or another.

263.Squadron 18 Gladiators. Based at lake east of Åndalsnes 25-27.April but quickly neutralized. Later (26-27.May) 3 Gladiators of the squadron operated from Bodö.
46.Squadron Hurricanes. Based at Bardufoss, Narvik
11.Observer screen

At this page: http://hem.fyristorg.com/robertm/nor...reference.html it shows the royal airforce based in Norway. But most of the airial operations were flown from Britain. Were can I find information on how many planes were engaged in the Norwegian campain based in Britain?

Eivind IV · February 3, 2004, 16:42

*Puh*

Now I have worked non stop with the polish and everything is finished, with the exeption of the above posted. Please help me, I want to finish this crap!

Case · February 4, 2004, 04:57

Quote:

Originally posted by Kobra
I just have one last question:

At this page: http://hem.fyristorg.com/robertm/nor...reference.html it shows the royal airforce based in Norway. But most of the airial operations were flown from Britain. Were can I find information on how many planes were engaged in the Norwegian campain based in Britain?

Have you looked in the online version of the British offical history? That kind of information is normally included in excessive amounts of detail.

From memory, there were something like four(?) squadrons of Hurricanes which operated out of Norway during the campaign.

Eivind IV · February 4, 2004, 07:42

I made some searches on the net, without any results, just the same ol'. Were in fact is this british official history site?

It would be a shame to now abandon the historical authenticitity I have in the placements of all the other units. Only the RAF remains.

Eivind IV · February 4, 2004, 23:01

Please!? I only need to give the allies a couple of planes by events and this is all finished. In order to do this I need to know how many planes they had engaged in the campaign operating from Britain.

The closest I've got is this:
http://world.std.com/~Ted7/minoraf.htm#norge

http://world.std.com/~Ted7/altcamp1.htm#cNorway

This was probably the closest (under air operations):
http://www.ibiblio.org/hyperwar/UN/U...-Norway-B.html

Close, but no sigar, right??

Boco · February 5, 2004, 01:00

Okay, this is my week for digging ancient boardgames out of my freezing attic. Found one called Narvik. It has a fairly detailed OOB, but I can't vouch for its accuracy. My impression is that it's pretty much on the mark.

Narvik has many air units, but doesn't define their size. Probably detachment or squadron. Maybe by listing the information on LW, Norwegian AF, and FAA units, I can give you enough so that you can deduce the game's accuracy and possibly the RAF component you crave.

ALLIES
At start: 1x Gladiator 1 (Norwegian near Oslo)
Apr 9-11 reinforcements: 3x Skua, 1x Blenheim 1F (NF), 1x Wellington 1C (NB), 1x Whitley (NB)
Apr 12-15: Furious (cap=2 units), 2x Swordfish*, 1x Blenheim I, then listed under Bomber Command (an off board airfield) 1x Blenheim I, 1x Whitley (NB), 1x Hampdon, 1x Wellington 1C (NB)
Apr 24-27: Glorious (cap=4 units), Ark Royal (cap=6 units), 2x Sea Gladiators*, 6x Swordfish*, 1x Gladiator*
May 6-9: 1x Hurricane 1
GERMANS
At Start: 4x Ju88A, 6x He111H, 3x Me110C, 21x Ju52, 1x Ju52 floatplane, 3x He115 floatplane
April 12-15: 4x Ju87B, 3x Me110C, 3x Me109E
April 16-19: 5x Ju88A
April 23-23: 6x Ju87B
Abbreviations: * = carrier air units, NF = night fighter, NB = night bomber

All British air units except 4 Bomber Command units start in Hatson Field, Orkneys. UK based units seem to be hamstrung by range. Can only bomb Denmark and SW Norway.

Overall, the game lists land OOB's at the battalion scale, with scattered companies of specialist units. If you need it let me know, but it sounds like you don't. It has a couple of interesting rules: Germans can form arty units from captured Norwegian arty, stranded sailors can form infantry units, airstrips can be laid on frozen lakes. There's a lot of detail about how many planes can land where.

Good luck!

Case · February 5, 2004, 03:43

Quote:

Originally posted by Kobra
This was probably the closest (under air operations):
http://www.ibiblio.org/hyperwar/UN/U...-Norway-B.html

That's the offical history I was talking about. The hyperlinked index of all references to the RAF is at: http://www.ibiblio.org/hyperwar/UN/U...#royalairforce From just a very quick look at a few of the references I spotted several mentions of what squadrons were available and where they were based

skipper · February 5, 2004, 06:27

http://research.airuniv.edu/papers/a...c/97-0146B.pdf

Eivind IV · February 5, 2004, 09:28

@Boco you very mucho! I will use this as the last alternative. I didn't even know they board games from this campaign...sounds like a fun game

.

@Case: You must have better eyes than me, because I can't find the figures/numbers, even on that page (which is full of useful/unuseful (

) information)...

@skipper: Yes, I've seen that page as well, but the 'table 3' I asume you refer to only show which planes were involved in the campaign, not how many and from were they were based.

Eivind IV · February 5, 2004, 09:48

Just to show how it has developed

curtsibling · February 5, 2004, 10:16

Now that is looking awesome!

Arthedain · February 5, 2004, 10:32

Sure do!

Guess I'm no the only one who wanna try this scenario out now..

skipper · February 5, 2004, 14:46

Wow!!!

Eivind IV · February 5, 2004, 20:27

Deleted attachment

Eivind IV · February 8, 2004, 18:28

Quote:

Originally posted by Kobra
@Boco you very mucho! I will use this as the last alternative. I didn't even know they board games from this campaign...sounds like a fun game

.

@Case: You must have better eyes than me, because I can't find the figures/numbers, even on that page (which is full of useful/unuseful (

) information)...

@skipper: Yes, I've seen that page as well, but the 'table 3' I asume you refer to only show which planes were involved in the campaign, not how many and from were they were based.

Noone?

Eivind IV · February 8, 2004, 19:58

Ah, I've been reading through the Hyper War source you gave me, Case. You told me you found some stuff only by taking a quick look. If you did, please share it, I can't find ****.

I need to know the RAF situation before giving away the beta version...

POTUS · February 9, 2004, 00:01

Don't you think it is more important to place them in a place that's best for gameplay, rather than what is best for historical accuracy.

Eivind IV · February 9, 2004, 08:30

I'm quite proud of having every other unit placed historically and it would be a shame to go away from that now.

I know the placement isn't that important, but I would at least like to know how many I should place. How many RAF squadrons were involved (exept for those stationed in Norway?

skipper · February 9, 2004, 16:01

...it's very difficult my friend...except Norway?

Found only this link about the RAF in Norway:

http://www.nuav.net/oobnono.html

=>

One RAF squadron (46th Sqn.) equipped w/ Hurricanes, first at Skånland, later Bardufoss Arrived 26th May.
One RAF squadron (263rd Sqn.) equipped w/ Fairey Swordfish, also at Bardufoss. Arrived 21st May.

These aircraft were transported on the carrier “Glorious” when the Allied retreated; it was shortly after attacked and sunk by “Scharnhorst”

Eivind IV · February 9, 2004, 16:28

Thanks for trying, skipper! Sadly I knew this beforehand. I can't understand why it is so hard to find info about RAF planes engaged in Norway, launched from Britain, when they played such a vital role in various bombing raids...

If noone replies within 24 hours I'll improvise and take wild guesses. Case? Fairline? Anyone?

Boco · February 9, 2004, 20:35

Fairline is Down Under at present.

Before making wild guesses, make some deductions from the wargame data I posted. It took me 20-30 minutes to dig up and post that stuff! You could get a close approximation of the info you need by analyzing it. You can find out CV capacities online, and you probably know the LW OOB. Comparing those to the number of units the wargame uses should give an idea of its unit size. My guess (based on remembered CV capacities) is that a single Narvik air unit represents about 8 aircraft.

Don't completely ignore POTUS' remark. An accurate OOB is an excellent starting point, but every game is a balance between playability and accuracy.

Eivind IV · February 9, 2004, 21:56

Hehe, I told you that I would use your data if noone could provide accurate numbers

Quote:

@Boco: thank you very mucho! I will use this as the last alternative.

I ment it

Maybe I exaggerated a bit when I said wild
guesses...

And POTUS made a good point. I have already made some improvisations to fit the game play.

Boco · February 9, 2004, 23:08

Oops! I have to admit the "wild guesses" caught my eye more than "use as the last alternative".

[/Flame] I'm looking forward to this.