Yang is powerful!

Ironwood · December 16, 2003, 17:57

I just played my first game as the Hive in a long time, at that second-highest difficulty level. I knew the war factions got more powerful as the difficulty rises, but wow!

I know why, too: early drones are crippling, and Yang's ability to exploit Police State (and Planned Economics, for that matter) w/o efficiency penalties is simply staggering. While other factions are struggling to get Rec Commons built to raise their populatioin above 3, yang is sitting there with size 5 bases on police alone (6 with the genome project), supporting a rediculous number of units per base, and once Children's Creches show up (and I'm pretty sure their effectiveness is a bug), Yang can compete with the builders at their own level, while conquering them at the same time! Only Deidre can compete, under a Green Conquest strategy.

I think I'll go and beat my first Transcend game.

Maniac · December 16, 2003, 18:08

Yang is powerful, like most factions when played correctly.

Chaos Theory · December 16, 2003, 18:10

As good as Yang is, he struggles early on to research crucial techs, and gets last dibs on most early secret projects. His bases are strong but far from impregnable and he cannot run democracy, the best overall political SE choice (though Police State without the penalty is pretty nice).

Blake · December 16, 2003, 18:38

Yang is easy to use and is exceedingly powerful when played right. In particular, building lots of bases, then having the core bases pump formers & infrastructure while the outer bases pump impact rovers and conquer the neighbours.

Builder-Yang only really needs one SP - the WP. Altough the CN and AV fit very well with any Hive strategy. If your isolated and unable to enslave Zak/Morgan/Lal for research purposes then one effective research tatic for the Hive is snagging the WP (disband units if nessecary to rush build it), then terraform 2 Condensors at a base, pod-boom this base to size 5, convert 3 of the workers to libarians and put the other 2 on the condensors, use worm income or disband units to build a net node for the base. These research bases allow the Hive to compete with other factions, or atleast get to restriction lifting / crawlers, at which stage effective terraforming catapults the Hive to new levels of power.

timotheus4 · December 16, 2003, 22:04

I got 9288 points playing Uni on Librarian

Frankychan · December 16, 2003, 22:32

This thread gets Frankychan's 5-star seal of approval!

Blake · December 17, 2003, 04:58

Nice spam guys.

Frankychan · December 17, 2003, 04:59

laurentius · December 17, 2003, 05:41

Everybody wants to be king, right?

Impaler[WrG] · December 17, 2003, 10:31

I dont belive Yang originaly had that Ineffiency imunity did he? Was giving that to him some kind of mis-guided Balance attempt that whent horribly wrong and created the Monster that is Yang? Do yall feel that taking it away would infact balance Yang as he shoud be or utterly cripple him? How about changing it to Robust instead or giving the Hive +1 efficiency?

Flubber · December 17, 2003, 12:06

Quote:

Originally posted by laurentius
Everybody wants to be king, right?

NOpe

The Hive is an excellent faction but I do not find them to be superpowered. The slower early research, inability to get to +2 Econ and inability to pop boom easily are all major hurdles to overcome. I am in no way saying the Hive is weak-- far from it . . . it is just a very different faction to play

Flubber · December 17, 2003, 12:12

Quote:

Originally posted by Impaler[WrG]
I dont belive Yang originaly had that Ineffiency imunity did he? Was giving that to him some kind of mis-guided Balance attempt that whent horribly wrong and created the Monster that is Yang? Do yall feel that taking it away would infact balance Yang as he shoud be or utterly cripple him? How about changing it to Robust instead or giving the Hive +1 efficiency?

Giving the Hive only +1 effeiciency would kill them. The result in Police/planned would be a minus 3 meaning more drones and even greater losses of energy. The Hive is a very good faction but they simply aren't THAT strong. They are limited and pretty inflexible. Police/planned is a good combo for them but pretty much any other choice is impossible or simply so bad as to make no sense. The inability to pop boom early means and high support means that a many base strategy is best. The result is a good byt pretty unidimensional faction.

Lazerus · December 17, 2003, 13:56

The Hive is a sledge hammer as compared to the dagger that is the University. Its all how well you wield them.

CEO Aaron · December 17, 2003, 15:27

Yang's strength is that he's simple to play, but make no mistake, you need to be aggressive to be successful with Yang. A Yang player who's turtling is going to be leapfrogged by an actual builder faction.

In terms of power and flexibility, I find Zak, Dee and Morgan to all be stronger. With each of these factions, early building and expansion is simple and effective, and your income of tech and cash give you a headstart on critical early SPs.

If you're Yang and you don't get good early energy production, either from rivers, specials or monoliths, you'll lag for years in the tech basement while your rivals snap up all available SPs. Probes can allow you to play catch up, but having no innate probe bonus means your loss rates can be high. Meanwhile your rivals are busy advancing into the midgame while you're puttering about with probes, trying to achieve parity.

Yang has a good support rating, and simple SE choices, coupled with decent industry and growth. However, being monumentally cash poor means that you'll sacrifice early turn-advantage due to your inability to rush-build units and facilities. However, if you're the sort of player who doesn't use your cash to good effect, and doesn't bother with strong strategies like pop-booming, then of course Yang will seem incredibly strong, since he is balanced with his inability to use said strategies in mind.

Sarxis · December 17, 2003, 15:48

Quote:

Originally posted by Flubber

I am in no way saying the Hive is weak-- far from it . . . it is just a very different faction to play

My sentiments. Of course, ICS is an option for Yang, and Zerg military tactics too.

Snowflake · December 17, 2003, 15:49

What is Zerg military tactics?

jtsisyoda · December 17, 2003, 16:04

The Zerglings are from Starcraft. Their units are inexpensive, so they just make a lot of them. Quantity instead of quality (tech).

johndmuller · December 17, 2003, 18:00

The Hive's reputation is probably based on the ability of the AI to play a pretty decent game with them, so most of us remember getting our butts kicked or at least getting a really good scare by Yang early in our SMAC careers.

It would probably be useful information if we knew what it is about Yang that the AI is able to exploit when it is rather pitiful with many of the factions; then we could modify some of the others in a similar fashion to make them more competitive too.

Blake · December 17, 2003, 18:15

Um, I think someone already explained why Yang AI is strong. Yang cant exploit pop boom, +2 econ. AI cant either. You'll often find an AI running FM and trying to go to war, with drones/doctors totally crippling their production, it's sad.

Yang has no real negatives other than the -2 econ, which doesn't really actively hurt - unlike say, FM drones, or bad support - the AI cant commit suicide with -2 econ.

I made quite a lot of variants of super power AI's, the main things I did was greatly boosting police for them (usually +2 or +3, or immunity FM) so they couldn't easily commit suicide with FM. Then I gave them either some + support, or free clean reactors, so they couldn't commit sucicide by using all their minerals on support.

If you put the AI in a position where it is unable to kill itself, then it actually does quite well. The only original factions that have trouble killing themselves are the Hive (with good police and support and the BUILD priority) and the Gaians (with the inability to run FM, and non-agressive meaning less units built).

CEO Aaron · December 17, 2003, 19:09

I always found that the AI couldn't screw up Miriam too badly. Big support and nice attack bonuses conspire to keep her threatening, and the AI is never shy about sharing tech, especially once you secure a good lead.

timotheus4 · December 17, 2003, 21:52

Yang can do +2 econ or he can do pop boom. Run fm/wealth/golden age or planned/creche/golden age

Frankychan · December 17, 2003, 23:37

Bah! You guys have ruined this thread with anti-Yang dissent!

gopher · December 18, 2003, 01:53

Yang is a monster if played right. Sure, he can't pop boom very well (as stated above, needs GA and Creche), but that incefficency cap and industry means he has a shot.
Keys for a Yang Victory:

1) Some type of ICS. Perhaps not a complete ICS strategy, but one that relies on a bunch of bases very close to another. Use that perimiter defence well.

2) Offence. You have an energy problem. Therfore, you will probably be behind a generation in tech. Also, rush building may be a problem. Solutions? Use your industry advantage. Crank out units to go to war. Crank out probes to steal techs and credits.

CRANK OUT SUPPLY CRAWLERS! Its your decision to make them either pump out energy or minerals. If your not on offence, your on defence. Make the enemy use their energy advantage in countering your moves. Plus, that energy will not help them that much if you have probes with your army.

3) Drones. With Hive, Police state is a given (you really DONT want to magnify the enemy's tech lead with Fundy, do ya? Besides, the +2 morale is not worth being 2 generations behind). Also, with that industry lead, and a probable emphasis on minerals, you can produce a lot, and have great support. That means defenders (111) with police/riot training. No more worries of drones, no more need for energy into making citizens happy (unless you go for GA).

Flubber · December 18, 2003, 13:04

Quote:

Originally posted by timotheus4
Yang can do +2 econ or he can do pop boom. Run fm/wealth/golden age or planned/creche/golden age

My statement was they cannot do those things easily --The effort required to get Yang into a pop boom is considerable and even then, you may not be able to maintain a boom in a given base for very long. I usually just ICS and live with the inherent +3 growth that comes with staying in Planned.

I have NEVER gone FM with Yang-- +1 Econ was never enough for what I was giving up. The effort in psych allocation, specialists or facilities ( when foregoing the high police rating) to attain golden ages in a significant number of bases just is not worth it IMHO.

So while timotheus is technically correct in his statement of the obvious, that these things are possible, I find that the HIve is a very difficult faction to get a Golden age in a significant number of bases. The energy deficet is HUGE in this effort and many bases just don't have enough energy to get to a GA even at 100% psych allocation.

Blake · December 18, 2003, 17:34

It's not too hard to get the Hive into GA for some central bases, the important thing is to have a couple of boreholes per base for the energy and probably tree farms. Such bases go into GA quite effortlessly (~30% physch), especially with all the police to supress drones.

You dont need the outlying bases to GA anyway, they serve more as a barrier and unit producers and probably wont have the infrastructure to grow much.

Ofcourse the only purpose of the GA is pop-boom.

Illuminatus · December 18, 2003, 17:46

Quote:

Originally posted by Blake
Ofcourse the only purpose of the GA is pop-boom.

Add Free Market (under police state and you have +2 economy with Hive

)

Flubber · December 18, 2003, 17:56

Quote:

Originally posted by Blake
It's not too hard to get the Hive into GA for some central bases, the important thing is to have a couple of boreholes per base for the energy and probably tree farms. Such bases go into GA quite effortlessly (~30% physch), especially with all the police to supress drones.

You dont need the outlying bases to GA anyway, they serve more as a barrier and unit producers and probably wont have the infrastructure to grow much.

Ofcourse the only purpose of the GA is pop-boom.

I agree with all that you say but for me, if you are talking treefarms, you are later than I like to boom and I find it painful to go even 30% psych for an entire empire to just get a handful of booming bases. It can be worth it sometimes but I usually find it better to use that 30% rushing yet another former, crawler or colony pod.

I agree that the only purpose would be pop-boom since it makes no sense to lose even 30% of your total energy to psych even for the benefit of an extra energy per tile in FM/wealth ( unless of course you are EXTREMELY energy deprived in which case getting to a GA is a problem). The math would never seem to work out plus you get issues from loss of police and a low Planet rating.

Again I am not saying a pop-boom is impossible for the HIve. But I contrast it with the ease with which some others boom. For most factions it is a natural step to time a switch to planned with a rush of a number of major facilities. If you stockpile a little cash, the reduced rush costs can pay for the switch costs and even some of the lost income from time in Planned. The boom is almost painless.

With the HIve, my dream situation is to snag the PTS and then just "boom" by founding base after base. But this can be difficult to acquire and almost impossible if one of the research factions wants it.

Enigma_Nova · December 18, 2003, 20:32

Police can't do much to help you GA:
Psych is the first thing that gets applied to a base, before anything else.
So... Psych has to:
1. Eat up your b-drones
2. Turn half your drones into talents
Your police are going to:
3. Turn the rest of the drones into workers.

If you're going ICS then you'll have a -lot- of b-drones. Even if you're not, you'll still need to turn half your drones into talents.
If you're not, you'll have workers to work the squares...
Police + Planned + Creche + Boom - not entirely painless, but it could take some effort.

Getting the HGP is a must for pop-booming under GA. Unfortunately Aki knows this as well, and you'll still be in the tech basement while she snags it.

timotheus4 · December 19, 2003, 22:08

Quote:

Originally posted by Blake
and probably tree farms

You mean hybrid forests. TF gets +1 nut in a forest square; HF gets +1 nut and +1 energy, both put together give you +2 nut and +1 energy, which with the resources from unmodified forests gets you 3-2-2 unless you have a condensor in the square as well, in which I think you'd get 8-2-2.

Blake · December 20, 2003, 00:15

Nah I meant TF's, for the +50% physch and 2 food per forest tile, the boreholes provide the energy required, and the (possibly crawled) consdensors make up for the foodless boreholes. I'm talking about having the boreholes/condensors built before env.eco, then throwing up treefarms and immediately going into a GA.

Yang cant afford to get HF's anyway, those suckers take forever to build, freemarketeers can just buy them for a reasonable price, but by the time Yang can afford to install them in mass it'll be a very late pop-boom. What Yang can afford is heaps of formers, which is why I prefer to go TF's and a mix of boreholes/condensors and forests for most the game.