A Classical Diplo?

[Zylka]

~

[Berzerker]

Ugh, I can't even spell grateful now?

Hey Oz, the corruption level seems awfully high, the scenario plays like deity, not emporer. My cities are revolting at size 1...

[Berzerker]

I just played about 2,500 years and noticed there were no wonders available to build and aquaducts required to go beyond size 4 cities. Btw, I played at King instead of emporer because of the elevated corruption effectively making emporer behave like deity...

[deity]

My scn is just a suggestion. It's not the final result. I don't mid if everything changes. I was just trying to creatively contribute.... see it as a parallel suggestion.

Can't we have a bit of free flow thinking here? !

[deity]

Originally posted by Berzerker
I just played about 2,500 years and noticed there were no wonders available to build and aquaducts required to go beyond size 4 cities. Btw, I played at King instead of emporer because of the elevated corruption effectively making emporer behave like deity...

I didn't have that problem Berz. At the moment it doesn't belong in a scn folder. It should be tested at the root civ2 folder level as a std scn.

You must be playing with this scn file in that folder where we had the small Earth game. Dang set up special rules and units for that scn (like Aquas needed past size 4)

[Frank Johnson]

That pack was designed for small games. Also it must have been the orginal version, since I got rid of that increased riot factor very quickly! Riot factor should stay at 14 and definately not move.

[OzzyKP]

Deity gets all the credit (and seemingly more so, blame) for this one. I was busy getting a*s raped by Z, Rah, and Kaak last night when Deity was working on this stuff. So its not me.

If Frank wants in, or would be so kind to help out I suggest him setting up a good mod for this. Cause that's his specialty.

So as I understand it the cast currently is:

Babs - Berzerker
Carts - Deity
Spainish - Zylka
Egyptians - Makeo
Gauls - Atawa
Greeks - Ozzy
Romans - ..... someone want to revive the great Roman empire?

[OzzyKP]

Ok, Berz, I've got no problem with making 134, 60 an ocean square. What say the rest of you?

And is that the best spot for the Spanish to start? Seems more of a Portugaul start than Spanish. But I suppose its Zylka's call.

Now that I'm looking at it, the map looks pretty good. Even got the civ names right. Good job Deity. Heh, though y'all should have heard it last night. It took him like 20 minutes of me walking him through before he found the "select AI opponents" option in start up. Hehe.

But I think things look good. As for the desert in southern Africa, that was planned all along Z. You can check out my first post or two in this thread. I hadn't done it yet, cause I was debating on whether to make it desert or just stick powerful barbarians down there. But this way is simplier I guess.

[Frank Johnson]

Ill take Romans based on when the time rolls out. I doubt Ill be able to do anything else on saturdays (US time) besides HOTW4.....

[Frank Johnson]

If you guys are going to touch specialized units again, let me suggest this. Do not increase the primary stat of any unit, or the movement of any unit. That being, we don't want any 3 def phalanx or 3 attack horsemen.

Also, this being an anicent scenario, on a large map, I don't understand why we'd want these special units, since if past diplo games have taught us anything then its that warfare usually doesn't take place early on on large maps.

[Zylka]

I would like the Spanish to start at 31, 31 for a traditional Madrid placement. Please give Berz his ocean square request too, for a good port city. Cheers

[trev]

I have been looking at this game and may be willing to play, however I will not be very flexible on time, I do not want a game on Sunday or Sat daytime/ evening. However Sat/Sun morning early would be fine (ie evening FridaySaturday night GMT time). As I often rise early for work during the week, an early rise is suitable on Sat/Sun mornings, I would like a session to end by 9.30 am (Aust EST time)which is probably currently about 11pm GMT I think

[deity]

Originally posted by OzzyKP


Now that I'm looking at it, the map looks pretty good. Even got the civ names right. Good job Deity. Heh, though y'all should have heard it last night. It took him like 20 minutes of me walking him through before he found the "select AI opponents" option in start up. Hehe.

But I think things look good. As for the desert in southern Africa, that was planned all along Z. You can check out my first post or two in this thread. I hadn't done it yet, cause I was debating on whether to make it desert or just stick powerful barbarians down there. But this way is simplier I guess.

Did you really have to say this!!?? The scn is great and looks even better now that I'm sober...

[OzzyKP]

OF COURSE i had to say that.

[deity]

* Spanish Cap at 31, 31

* Port for Berz at 134, 60

Please d/l again if necesary, I just made sure each civ had 2 sq visibility...
and access to the specials ozzy intended

[Ljube]

Count me in

As I told you, I am going to have free time from 22 Dec to 15 jan next year.

What is the time of play?

[deity]

No time decided yet.

But I think USA Sat night is possible.

[deity]

Mind you, I'd like to get several sessions in per week over the hol period.

[deity]

I love that avatar Ljube! LOL

[OzzyKP]

Don't you mean USA Friday night? We have HOTW4 on Saturday.

What does everyone else think of that time?

[OzzyKP]

Since the current Spain start doesn't have any starting specials I recommend it be moved NE one square (to 32, 30). And the square at 29,29 (two squares NW of original start) be turned to forest, plains, or hills.

[Berzerker]

I didn't have that problem Berz. At the moment it doesn't belong in a scn folder. It should be tested at the root civ2 folder level as a std scn.

You must be playing with this scn file in that folder where we had the small Earth game. Dang set up special rules and units for that scn (like Aquas needed past size 4)

I'm not sure what you mean by "root civ2 folder", the game is in my scenario folder but as a separate scenario. But obviously I screwed something up. Friday nights are out for me, that's when we play Rah's game. But I could play late Fridays around 2 am est. Of course, we have hotw4 going saturday night so that's out too until we finish it.

[Berzerker]

Hmm, I'm still having this problem. Another problem is the food box requires 1 1/2 times the amount of food the reg game requires. Where do I save the scenario to avoid this problem?

[OzzyKP]

Just stick it in the main folder that has the civ2 program, and most of your save files in it. NOT in the scenario folder.

If its still screwed up when you do that, then your rules.txt are messed up.

[OzzyKP]

[QUOTE] Originally posted by deity
We should get a good locked off modpak for this scn. No changes mid-way.

* Let's agree or not on ozzy's starting tech idea (I vote in favour)

I vote in favor as well.

*Wonders? (I vote extended Oracle)

I vote extended Oracle. (till indus).

* Starting settlers/cities as 2? (I say 2)

Yea, two is ok. With one city build.

* King/Emp or deity level (I vote deity or Emp)

I vote Emporer.

* Extra techs and units? (HOTW additions are good)

I agree to HOTW4 modpack.

* No huts is proposed

I agree to this.

* Cities already established at historical starting locations in 4000BC (I agree)

I agree.

* Tech Rate slowed as per HOTW4 (1/5x harder)

I agree.

* Some limitation on tech trading? In HOTW4 techs spread so quickly as to nullify the slower tech rate and nullify the efforts of those civs concentrating on Super Science Rates etc

Yea, I definately agree to this. How to do it, I don't know. Since civs are penalized for getting tech through trade or from huts and such, can we up that penalty? I don't want to stop tech trading, but I want to make it undesireable.

* We need to list out special diplo rules - highlighted from CapTVK's thread (Any variations to be spelt out, like it's compulsory to respond to Foreign Advisor etc etc)

Yea, I thought it went without saying, but Atawa proved otherwise in HOTW4... If someone wants to cancel an alliance, or change diplomatic status in any way, it is mandatory you accept the foreign minister screen.

I also vote we increase ship movement along the same terms as HOTW4.

I also vote we increase the cost of caravans from 50 to 70 shields. I think these are overused, and perhaps exploited. Especially in semi-peaceful games like diplogames. Plus without 30 million caravans moving around the world, the game will go quicker.

[OzzyKP]

As for special units, I agree with Frank's concerns. We should be VERY careful, or just not bother.

How about we decrease the cost of early units for each civ, but no stats, and no later units. As Frank noted, since wars usually happen later, this may be of limited use. But it'll hopefully be less unbalancing too.

How about:

Romans - Legion for 30 shields.
Carts - Elephants for 30 shields.
Egyptians - Chariots for 20 shields.
Greeks - Phalanx for 10 sheilds.
Spanish - Horse for 10 shields.
French - Archers for 20 shields.
Babylonians - Tririeme for 30 shields.

Romans, carts, greeks and egyptians units all make sense, as they are units each civ used in history. I just assigned stuff randomly for the other 3. What do y'all think? We can have custom names and graphics and such. Stats won't change though.

[Zylka]

Originally posted by OzzyKP

Romans - Legion for 30 shields.
Carts - Elephants for 30 shields.
Egyptians - Chariots for 20 shields.
Greeks - Phalanx for 10 sheilds.
Spanish - Horse for 10 shields.
French - Archers for 20 shields.
Babylonians - Tririeme for 30 shields.

I could agree on this, especially since you've offered that needed start resource for Spain. Spanish start to 32, 30 - and 29, 29 changed to forest, please.

* Let's agree or not on ozzy's starting tech idea (I vote in favour)

Willing for unit cost specials, but if that's in play I'd especially like to keep start up techs nill. Bonus techs (above all) aren't meant for equal opportunity

I vote extended Oracle. (till indus).

Definitely agreed.

Yea, two is ok. With one city build.

Two settlers is essential. Although are you saying only one can build into city?

I vote Emporer.

Agreed

I agree to HOTW4 modpack.

Sure, why not

And no huts makes sense.

Tech rate should be a refreshing slow down. Although I'd like to cancel tech trading entirely, or at least limiting its transfer along some arbitrary terms.

I also vote we increase the cost of caravans from 50 to 70 shields. I think these are overused, and perhaps exploited. Especially in semi-peaceful games like diplogames. Plus without 30 million caravans moving around the world, the game will go quicker.

I'd suggest increasing it to 70 as well, nothing too drastic but something that will make a difference. Either that or limit amount of trade routes possible to each civ?

[OzzyKP]

Originally posted by Zylka
Two settlers is essential. Although are you saying only one can build into city?

I meant everyone starts with one city already built, and then 1 settler. That settler can be used for anything.

[Frank Johnson]

My suggestions.


Romans - Legion with pikeman flag
Carts - Elephants for 30
Egyptians - Chariots with 2 defense
Greeks - Phalanx with 2 attack
Spanish - Horse for with 2 defense
French - Archers for 20.
Babylonians - Tririeme for 30 shields.


Addressing caravans:
The real problem with caravans isn't the cost of caravans themselves, although if you keep pounding at their cost maybe up to 100, it might change something.

#1 people value caravans not just for their trading ability, but the ability to horde them for wonder builds. Increasing their cost won't change this at all.

#2 Take a basic city. Size 3, republic, 4 sheilds per turn, and 8 trade. Has a temple. What do you make next? You could make a marketplace, for 80 sheilds. If your tax rate is 10, and lux is 40, then that 80 sheild building is now netting you +2 gold/luxuries per turn. It also costs you 1 gold upkeep. So net +1, true it will get better when you have higher trade, but how do you do that? Make caravans. ^_^

A caravan at 70 sheilds travels to a foreign city, about the same size. It generates a +2 trade stream, which helps all catigories including science. It also generates a bonus income which, for this example lets say is 50 gold, what the game doesn't say is it also gives you 50 beakers, thats huge. Also, much like the marketplace getting better, the trade route gets better as the overall trade in the cities increases. Multiple caravans are self-fullfilling propheties, since the city already has more trade from the previous route, which might increase the per turn bonus for the prior route also, and the initial bonus will be higher because of the increase trade presence. Those gold bonuses can be rolled into rush buying more caravans, which in the end, are rapidly assembled.

So, I suggest attacking not caravans, but the weakness of monarchy its self and the dependency of players (well serious ones) on republic. Make the food box smaller. That way populations will grow faster under monarchies where food is the highest production.

Oh well now I'm ranting. But thats the physics behind caravans. To really tempt me not to make caravans, you'd have to decrease the food box size, and make settlers cheaper, then I'd just outright expand more....but we usually do that anyway.

[Zylka]

I meant everyone starts with one city already built, and then 1 settler. That settler can be used for anything.

Alright. Though I'll definitely need the requested changes on that confirmation.

So, I suggest attacking not caravans, but the weakness of monarchy its self and the dependency of players (well serious ones) on republic. Make the food box smaller. That way populations will grow faster under monarchies where food is the highest production.

No frickin way . Way, way to huge and untested a set of mechanic changes to implement. At a possible 40% cost increase, caravan changes are already bordering murder for those used to their intrinsic method in gameplay. Why not just have a simpl "each civ can send (x) caravans to each other - totalling in (6x) caravans allowed for foreign trade per civ?