A Classical Diplo? - Page 5

atawa · December 22, 2003, 13:06

Quote:

Originally posted by Zylka

If you were even a half wit paying attention - you'd note that I'm not wanting either, settling for one if need be by everyone elses demands. Have any more baseless roll eyes in there, champ?

Now if you would spend more time trying to understand posts then insult other members you would also see that you didnt complain at all about the 10 shield horses but started when I started the subject of 20 shield archers.

Hence the

atawa · December 22, 2003, 13:10

If we play with no techtrading (witch I dont prefer) we should ban GL all together.

I vote allow tech from conquest. After all, this is never the reason to attack a city, just a nice bonus.
If I want the tech that hard I'll just send in a couple of dips and steal it.

atawa · December 22, 2003, 13:14

Quote:

Originally posted by Zylka

Tell me again why we should be playing with Nazi stormtroopers when at that same point people are actively running around with cannons, galleons, and crusaders?

I agree with Zylka on this. (It happens

)

Also the dreadnought unit that is in play is WAY too powerfull in the time it comes into play.

(You are all lucky in HOTW4 that Deity is shooting for SS or he could have taken out half the world with about 10 of these monsters.)

Frank Johnson · December 22, 2003, 13:23

Well I havent had stormtroops come up before riflemen, which seems to be the natural extention. Ozzy and Ljube had amph warfare about the same time, and that gives a more powerful infantry unit.

Dreadnoughts? Well, they are historicly correct. I'm a little worried about the weakness of the steel tech, but got a suggestion? Cruisers are only 2 attack/def less than dreadnoughts and are faster in typical civ rules, and cost less. I've gone to visit one of the few remaining dreadnought class battleships, the USS Texas. Its an impressive warship, but there are important distinctions between it and later era warships. The Texas orginally ran on coal and had to be switched to oil burning. It has batteries of 14" guns I beleive, 10 total. But by the time WW2 was around all it was good for was bombardment duty.

Submarines can own these things anyway, think creatively people. I haven't made anything that can't be smashed. Also, there's the modern infantry unit included in the mod, which counters howitizers with using the pikeman flag it gets +50% defense against them, the rest of the time they defend like mech inf.

BTW theres no way deity could have gotten this tech when he did, if 3 of us didnt end up getting it at the same time.

Frank Johnson · December 22, 2003, 14:20

here's the modpack, basicly unit graphics, and names for some eastern wonders. I could change the icons, but usually the best way for people to "know what that does" is just to leave the original icon.....

atawa · December 22, 2003, 14:55

Quote:

Originally posted by Frank Johnson
Well I havent had stormtroops come up before riflemen, which seems to be the natural extention. Ozzy and Ljube had amph warfare about the same time, and that gives a more powerful infantry unit.

The biggest problem I have with this unit is that the moment you get the tech most other landunits become obsolete. I would prefer it being placed later in the game, say around the same time as arty or a bit later .

Btw, I'm not at home so cant check but do they have any other benifits like ignore ZOC/Walls?

Quote:

Dreadnoughts? Well, they are historicly correct. I'm a little worried about the weakness of the steel tech, but got a suggestion? Cruisers are only 2 attack/def less than dreadnoughts and are faster in typical civ rules, and cost less. I've gone to visit one of the few remaining dreadnought class battleships, the USS Texas. Its an impressive warship, but there are important distinctions between it and later era warships. The Texas orginally ran on coal and had to be switched to oil burning. It has batteries of 14" guns I beleive, 10 total. But by the time WW2 was around all it was good for was bombardment duty.

Submarines can own these things anyway, think creatively people. I haven't made anything that can't be smashed.

I dont know who owns SunTsu in HOTW4 but combined they become ridiculous for the time they come into play, able to whipe out anything they want. I'm not worried about its defence being to high but about the damage they inflict.

Quote:

BTW theres no way deity could have gotten this tech when he did, if 3 of us didnt end up getting it at the same time.

But he has Magalans.......

Dylan Baker · December 22, 2003, 21:31

Sorry, folks, that I am so late in replying to this thread.

I realize that I am about 200 posts too late, but I am hoping that there is still a civ open in this game. If there is, I am definitely interested.

DB

Berzerker · December 23, 2003, 02:45

Quote:

How about :

Romans - Legion for 30 shields.
Carts - Elephants for 30 shields.
Egyptians - Chariots for 20 shields.
Greeks - Phalanx for 10 sheilds.
Spanish - Horse for 10 shields.
French - Archers for 20 shields.
Babylonians - Tririeme for 30 shields.

Gee thanks, triremes will do wonders for me with 1 port city and faster road routes to neighbors.

Btw, we Babs invented chariots, not the Egyptians. That was how we conquered those lowly Africans

Just leave the game units alone... As for tech trading and caravans, I don't think it wise to have tech trading only with allies and 2 alliances, that will only create blocks and set up a tribe game within the game. I wouldn't object to 20/10 tech rate, I really don't like zooming thru tech trees with units becoming obsolete in ~10-20 turns. Cutting off at some point short of the most advanced techs is fine with me, maybe we should cut it off at pikes and crusaders or guns and dragoons

Berzerker · December 23, 2003, 02:52

Btw, Fridays are out for me as I posted earlier. And we have Hotw4 still on saturdays to contend with...

deity · December 23, 2003, 07:14

With so much interest in the game we have Winzity, Prometheus, Dylan Baker and Ljube over and above the 7 assigned players!

I suggest that some civs have a team of two where there is a likelihood that one of the assigned seven may not make it each week.

deity · December 23, 2003, 07:19

I know it doesn't suit Berzerker but the most logical time slot for this game is USA Friday nights. atawa and Makeo are only available for this time; and same for me, ozzy and Dang (also Winzity and Ljube) who are in HOTW4 on USA Sat nights (although HOTW4 doesn't start until 11pm Eastern)

deity · December 23, 2003, 07:40

I just d/l Dang's units and rules... it all looks great, nice graphics - except the dumbo looks a bit gay

I'll put it all together with the scn in a folder called classic_eurodip which is a suggested folder name for the scn folder to go in the civ2 Scenario folder.

Actually the Modern Infantry helps reduce the potency of Howies so that's good thinking Frank. I'd forgotten that.

deity · December 23, 2003, 07:42

BTW To d/l Frank's zip file you need to turn add blockers off... I had that problem last time.

deity · December 23, 2003, 07:49

atawa, don't forget you have to actually be in Fundy Govt to be able to build Storm Troopers. I like them where they are in the game. It's a choice that one has to make to build them.

deity · December 23, 2003, 08:06

Here is the latest scn file, which has the Spanish start fixed with Forest/Pheasant etc, along with Dang's rules.txt and units.bmp

Can Zylka and ozzy check it out please...

Ljube · December 23, 2003, 10:20

Howies should be changed. Their strength has to be reduced. Dreadnoughts are OK, they may need to come around a little bit later.

I suggested legions get defence of 3 to make them useful. I don't know anybody who uses legions for attacks and they were the primary force of the Roman Empire, so I thought, simply for historical reasons (the same reasons dreadnoughts are around) to make this change that would enhance the use of legions.

Further to this, I think crusaders should disappear or move to chivalry branch. The reason for this is to punish those civs that pay little attention to the military and develop only nice wonder techs.

Caravans are too powerful. Maybe limitation to foreign trade Ozzy proposed, or increase in their cost (unlikely) might reduce their importance and effectiveness.

Ljube · December 23, 2003, 10:29

From the historical point of view, it is completely unrealistic to have monarchy in 2000 BC or even earlier. With France in our test game, I got monarchy in 2000 BC and switched in 1850.

In addition to this, I had open space for expansion and perfect land capable of supporting at least 20 cities in France and Germany alone.

Two conclusions:

The science needs to be slowed down. Monarchy should be researched around 20 AD, not 2000 BC.

France needs to be weakened a little bit.

Ljube · December 23, 2003, 10:38

Quote:

Originally posted by atawa

Also the dreadnought unit that is in play is WAY too powerfull in the time it comes into play.

I agree with this, but so is the ironclad at the time it comes to play. If you have the Lighthouse or Sun Tzu, you can simply forget anything else and concentrate on naval units, mass produce them and kill everyone.

This is where diplo comes in the picture. If you do that, if you attack one innocent, defenceless victim, all other nations will join forces against you. And there is an old Latin saying

Nec Hercules contra duos

The strength of any particular weapon or unit is offset by the diplomatic activities and the complicated network of treaties - just like in real history. You rarely could see total annihilation of a nation in the history because of the ties both the aggressor and the victim had with other nations.

Ljube · December 23, 2003, 10:44

Maybe we should ban certain wonders.
Probably Magellan and very possibly Sun Tzu. Or make them expire earlier.

I think we should make nearly all wonders expire.
I definitely think both Michelangelo and Bach should expire. And Leonardo is the most ridiculous wonder. It should be banned.

Great Wall should expire with gunpowder. Great Library should expire with University (this is from civ 1).

Ljube · December 23, 2003, 10:53

I am a stern supporter of huts. The reason is that huts bring the element of uncertainty in the game and they encourage exploration even beyond the borders one is planning to defend.

The argument that huts unbalance the game doesn't hold water, because the start positions are so unequal they unbalance the game much more. In fact, my experience proves that poor start is by far more crippling than poor hut luck. In fact, good huts sometimes can't compensate for very poor starts and crappy land.

So, I am for huts. And huts are great fun, cause they can be good or bad and it's luck, but in real life so many things are decided by luck factor. Life is by far less determined than this game and I think huts are great way of achieving that level of uncertainty in this game which claims to be a simulation of real life and real history events and developments.

Ljube · December 23, 2003, 10:56

When do we start? If we start this week, I am going to sub for Ozzy cause he can't play. I am completely free, so I accept any time of day or night

Zylka · December 23, 2003, 20:06

Looks like this Friday night it is, folks. Specification arrives tonight.

deity · December 23, 2003, 20:18

So if it's Friday night -
Greeks will be ozzy/Ljube
French = atawa
Spanish = Zylka
Egyptian = Makeo
Romans = Dangime (Frank)
Carts = deity
Babs = (was Berzerker but if we play USA Fri night...) Winzity was very keen to get a full civ and Prom said Fri nights were good for him I think

deity · December 23, 2003, 20:29

Quote:

Originally posted by ljcvetko
Howies should be changed. Their strength has to be reduced. Dreadnoughts are OK, they may need to come around a little bit later.

I suggested legions get defence of 3 to make them useful. I don't know anybody who uses legions for attacks and they were the primary force of the Roman Empire, so I thought, simply for historical reasons (the same reasons dreadnoughts are around) to make this change that would enhance the use of legions.

Further to this, I think crusaders should disappear or move to chivalry branch. The reason for this is to punish those civs that pay little attention to the military and develop only nice wonder techs.

Caravans are too powerful. Maybe limitation to foreign trade Ozzy proposed, or increase in their cost (unlikely) might reduce their importance and effectiveness.

I think Frank has balanced the units quite effectively and the curent pak is tried and tested mostly.

Modern Infantry counters howies with pike flag against 2 mvt units.

Dreads are expensive to build and haven't been used decisively on their own in any games thus far. If anyone follows atawa's DREADfull strategy the other civs will stop it!

Legions, I dunno. I agree with your historical argument though.

Better not mess with Crusaders, caravans or any other unit or we run risk of making too many untested changes. We need to start this week!

I'd prefer tech trading to none at all and take Berz's point about it developing into a team match if you can only trade techs with your ally, but I honestly think this is the way to go to keep the lid on tech trading.

deity · December 23, 2003, 20:34

If I ever needed a sub I'd be keen to enlist Prometheus if he's not playing his own civ.

Frank Johnson · December 23, 2003, 22:26

If you want to make a change to legions, I'd suggest pikeman flagging them. But, then again, I don't want to work with special units for civs.

Zylka · December 24, 2003, 01:07

Quote:

Originally posted by deity
Babs = (was Berzerker but if we play USA Fri night...) Winzity was very keen to get a full civ and Prom said Fri nights were good for him I think

I'm going to have to ask for Dylan Baker to have a chance with us as the Babs. He was one of the first initially invited, and is a good, solid player looking to join dip games on a regular basis from here on in. So for now if Berz can't make it on the Friday night basis, I'm going to slot Dylan in.

First session; Friday December the 26th - Possible start at 9:00pm EST (or earlier):

Greeks = Ljube (Ozzy regular)
French = Atawa
Spanish = Zylka
Egyptian = Makeo
Romans = Frank Johnson
Carts = deity
Babs = Dylan Baker

PLEASE CONFIRM AVAILABILITY FOR THIS START DATE, and specify if you're willing & able to start earlier in the evening. Berz - please respond ASAP if you can possibly manage Friday.

Extended rules will be posted tommorrow. Keep on civin'

Makeo · December 24, 2003, 01:59

Confirm for this friday start. If possible I'd like to go for an earlier start. Maybe an hour or so, but its ok if not.

deity · December 24, 2003, 02:29

I confirm. Earlier start by an hour is fine as it's Sat morning here

Frank Johnson · December 24, 2003, 03:37

I confirm. Early is good.