I finally got SMAX and my opinion is...

Illuminatus · December 18, 2003, 15:46

The bad stuff:
New factions are too powerfull (or balanced for multiplayer only - haven`t tried).
We have Nautilus Pirates who are extremely powerfull with their abilities (-1 growth bah - can`t pop boom early - big deal - try ICS on them it is TOO powerfull - not to mention other excellent abilities like terraforming oceans, getting naval yards and marine detachment ability as the technology progresses, +1 minerals in sea squares etc.). I prefer Hive but now even I am tempted.

Then we have CyCon - bad thing is that they also have -1 growth so no early pop booming either. On the other side Provost can hide under a rock when it comes to their research. +2 research and efficiency - if they got nodes as my fair Provost they would be godlike. Also no drone penalty. Powerfull.

Cult of Planet - never thought I can raise an army of worms so fast.

They are excellent for early and mid conquest and a good substitute for Miriam. They aren`t for anything else but who cares.

Free Drones - they get -2 research as a penalty - I don`t care when I have a dozen of probes and a huge army. Perhaps they are vulnerable in early stages. Also get -1 drone ability - good.
Datatechs - a faction made only for probe warfare? Hmm. I guess they are great when played right.
Aliens.
Don`t like them - all I need with them or against them is an army of impact rovers, with or without nerve gas, or later nerve gas needlejets and copters. Interesting concept through. I think I will play with them for next week or two.

Neutral stuff
Tech tree has been tinkered! I have two objections - Planetary Economics can be discovered without EnvEco (OK this is just a personal dislike). Second - TCF i SA have the same tech as requisite - this is too powerfull.

Good stuff
Improved SP AI - finaly I am more amused.
New weapons, techs etc.
Alien concept.
Weakaned THSA
More interesting native life (great work with spore launchers and fungal towers). Nice thing when you have more things to hunt.
Tectonic and fungal payload - buahahahahahahahahaha
hahahahahahaha this is fun.
I can now join ACDG.

Overall it is a great expansion - just needs little tinkering with the Alpha.txt file.
I have to Alt+Tab to SMAX now so just a few random thoughts:
Is random map generator even more stupid now?
Ideology is stupid for some factions.
AND Hive is a great faction so don`t insult it you *?/.@§^°`!!! (I know this belongs to other thread).

[hits Alt+Tab to continue extermination of those little nasty ali... um defense of innocent Pirates against progenitor attackers]

Flubber · December 18, 2003, 16:19

MY opinion is that ALL the factions are overpowered against the AI so the only test of balance is against what the other factions can do against good human opposition.

My favorite of the newer 7 is the Drones. I see them as often insanely powerful but their research penalty-- in particular the first 10 years with no research, leaves them well behind at the start. They can be very vulnerable in the beginning . ..

I also am playing a MP with the Data Angels( my first with that faction) and I find them to be pretty vanilla. They are very similar to the PKs in their flexibility and the probe abilities can come in really handy if you go to war. In peacetime they seem slightly weaker than the PK although the built-in techshare can be a bonus when the game is close among a lot of players

I also enjoy the cult but don't recommend them on larger MP maps where the builders flourish. They are a very different faction to play and I really don't think I have them down cold yet.

Cycon-- never found them to be as powerful as the university-- always seemed the free node more than counterbalanced the other features and the -1 growth really irritates me. Perhaps its a personal preference but I generally like to have a faction that can do a demo/planned/crech pop boom.

Pirates-- I never liked their inability to keep people from simply sailing through their territories. The additional cost of sea bases and seaformers are also sig. disadvantages. I like them fine but don't see them as overpowered.

THe true test of whether a faction is way stronger is whether people flock to them in a MP game. many of the factions have adherents and I have seen no overwhelming favorite. I will generally play with any of about 10 of the factions-- I actually think I have played each faction in a MP at one time or another-- Some people like to master on faction and play it constantly while I like to constantly change which faction I am playing

Illuminatus · December 18, 2003, 16:48

[hits Alt+Tab after another massacre erm. glorious defeat and posts reply]

I always hated early pop booming - it kinda ruins the game. But i like doing it afterwards. So I don`t care for growth penalties. And supply crawlers are disabled in my alpha.txt file. My only objection to new factions is.. erm I don`t have one. Each one has its one use - no, wrong, there are flexible ones, but it is great to have factions like Angels (people hate probes= people hate Angels). I like pirates because they have a period of time when nobody can disrupt their growth. And money can really speed their development.
And Peacekeepers are my number two favorite faction.

ErikM · December 18, 2003, 17:52

CyCon lack Network Nodes in the early game, so they cannot research as fast as the University early on. To pop boom - whether early or late - they need Dem/Planned/Creche/Golden Age, while jolly old good Professor can do Dem/FM/Golden Age, which is far superior in terms of lab output. So CyCon is not quite as good as the University for most of the game.

Pirates are rather weak faction. Or, rather, they depend on luck factor much more than other factions. Sea squares are just not terribly productive in the early game, and everything is so much more expensive on foil chassis. If pirates land next to (empty) Moonsoon (which they tend to, apparently, but often is not clear on the start where exactly Moonsoon is), they do fine; if they land in the middle of nowhere they are very tough.

Angels are vanilla. They start with two prereqs for IndAuto, though.

Drones are good but vulnerable to being isolated due to abysmal early tech.

ChaDawn is (imo) beyond pale, but apparently even he has some supporters.

Aliens are not as invincible as they appear at the first sight. They are incredibly strong early on, but by the middle game their Energy Griud is nowhere near as powerful as human factions' commerce income. Marr is actually rather weak faction. Caretakers are good but I'd say University is stronger in the medium to long run.

So new factions are not really overpowered or anything. The bad part about them is that their agendas seem to come from a comic book as opposed to the original seven. But oh well, it's more variety.

Illuminatus · December 18, 2003, 18:05

Speaking of voiceacting - Sinder Roze just sounds funny - is she stoned. And aliens have stereotype voices.

Pirates may have expensive units - but defense is not a problem. And they can get tons of cash.

Cult of Planet - eh how do you call it, momentum faction
- I prefer hybrids

CyCon is very similar to my custom faction so perhaps I am a bit misjudged about them, but later in the game they are more powerfull than University only because of the drone problems. And I HATE early pop booming. it feels like cheating.

But they some of them seem too powerfull.

Speaking of start locations, Drones have vaste of resources if they don´t have rich nutrients nearby (as I am just finding out - build dozens of synthmetals? if would prefer more nutrients for colony pods)

Enough about factions - I have SMAX for about four days so my impressions vary from moment to moment.
Let`s talk about good things and I do not mean nerve stapling.

Minute Mirage · December 18, 2003, 18:38

Quote:

Originally posted by obstructor

CyCon is very similar to my custom faction so perhaps I am a bit misjudged about them, but later in the game they are more powerfull than University only because of the drone problems. And I HATE early pop booming. it feels like cheating.

The drone penalty of the University is a non-issue -- it only matters when you reach a population of 4, and by that time you should try to boom to a population of 5 anyway. At least in single-player, I'd say that the Uni has practically no disadvantages and some huge advantages.

ErikM · December 18, 2003, 19:23

Yes. Actually, due to synergy between free net nodes and the Virtual World, University is probably the easiest faction for drone-control in SP. Even easier then Peacekeepers.

Enigma_Nova · December 18, 2003, 20:14

You can't get worse than a base full of b-drones, which I tend to have, so the Uni's penalty means NOTHING to me.

If I try to do the dem/fm/creche/GA boom I fall flat on my face 'cuz of all the b-drones, but dem/planned/creche works fine.

Flubber · December 18, 2003, 20:37

Quote:

Originally posted by obstructor

Pirates may have expensive units - but defense is not a problem. And they can get tons of cash.

Defense is not a problem is hardly a telling argument. I find their inabilityt to have a secure interior in most cases, to be a significant handicap.

This is a major challenge for probe defense as well. Don't get me wrong-- I like the pirates for many of the reasons you mention but do find them a challenge in many situations

The Mad Monk · December 19, 2003, 04:28

I have a few problems with the tech tree, myself.

The fact that you can get res 3 armor without going anywhere near plasma armor is significant -- in that the "fancy" version is more easily acquired than the "vanilla" version dosen't make sense in terms of either gameplay or believability, and in that it appears to change AI tech choices significantly in mid game -- in the admittedly few SMAX games I've played, needlejets came into play much later than in SMAC games.

BustaMike · December 19, 2003, 04:44

Quote:

We have Nautilus Pirates who are extremely powerfull with their abilities (-1 growth bah - can`t pop boom early - big deal - try ICS on them it is TOO powerfull - not to mention other excellent abilities like terraforming oceans, getting naval yards and marine detachment ability as the technology progresses

the pirates are overpowered

Jamski · December 19, 2003, 05:01

The original factions are always prefered by me. I just don't like to play the new ones as much. Its not a power-thing its just a matter of preference. I think all the factions have an equal chance.

-Jam

Enigma_Nova · December 19, 2003, 06:32

Santiago Pwnz j00r ChaDawn!11

SynthetGod8 · December 19, 2003, 12:28

Quote:

Originally posted by obstructor
Speaking of voiceacting - Sinder Roze just sounds funny - is she stoned. And aliens have stereotype voices.

Have you never heard a black girl sound like that? I have... and no, she wasn't stoned.

What would you have preferred the Aliens to sound like? A truly unique alien language would certainly require subtitles. Sure, I guess it's just a strange distortion of a human voice, but what were you expecting?

Illuminatus · December 19, 2003, 14:21

I was actually thinking of subtitles for aliens. At least it is good to see in diplo text that they truly think different than puny humans.

Actually funny in some way.
Never heard black girl with that accent (actually never heard one who speaking slowly - damn TV stereotypes).

My updates on SMAX impressions - CyCon is a modest faction (but still handle drones better than Uni, atleast early), pirates are still great, just as PK and Hive (probe defense? - just build a probe in outer bases - but wait, sub probes arghh damn - most devious design man even invented - ok point taken). In a most recent pirate game I scored more than 4500 credits in 30 turns just by exploring the oceans. Then I hit Ctrl+Shift+Q
Angels are a great, great faction - just realised what starting techs they have. Just boring in SP.
Drones- just need to discover PlaNet. Like you are going to build much besides pods in early ages. And it is not too hard to get PlaNet - seems it is just a matter of maintaining peace before tech rape.
Cult -ah forget it - boring after fifty turns.
Tech tree is stupid.
In SMAC you could get Nanohospitals without any nanoprefixed technology which didn`t have sense, but new tree is terrible. And I haven`t played with uni for a year or so (got bored soon).

They didn`t fix the airplane bug!!!

By the way I am still just coming to knowledge of new factions.

Illuminatus · December 19, 2003, 14:25

Quote:

Originally posted by Jamski
I think all the factions have an equal chance.

-Jam

I agree, but it still depends on map conditions. And this
is seenable only in MP.

Jamski · December 19, 2003, 20:44

Yeah, in SP all the AI factions have an equal chance - of getting creamed by the human player.

-Jam

SynthetGod8 · December 19, 2003, 23:47

"All the factions have an equal chance."

You've heard it here! The game is balanced! Can we go home now and stop arguing over which factions suck and which rock?

The Mad Monk · December 20, 2003, 04:29

No.

Blake · December 20, 2003, 04:51

I concur. The arguing must go on! I say that some factions are more powerful (ie univ) and others are weaker (ie cult) but all factions can be fun to play, and thats all that matters!

The Mad Monk · December 20, 2003, 07:03

Exactly, and if I tire of the "official" victory conditions -- and I do --I'll make up up one of my own.

Illuminatus · December 20, 2003, 14:35

Quote:

Originally posted by SynthetGod8
You've heard it here! The game is balanced! Can we go home now and stop arguing over which factions suck and which rock?

I never meant this thread to be battlefield of the eternal argue about the best faction. Every single player will have different opinion and I didn`t want to impose my opinion on others. I`m even not qualified to discuss SMAX factions, I am just giving my first impresions about them as a veteran SP SMAC player who finally got SMAX after a three year search.

Winter holidays have just begun so I have much time to play SMAX