The Dromon Upgrade Path

[geniemalin]

This is a bit of a pet hate, as I love playing the Byzantines, but I would really like to see Dromon upgrade to Frigate, not Caravel in the AU Mod.

Dromon is an offensive unit 2/1 with bombard.

Caravel is a defensive 1/2 without bombard. The only 'upgrade' is that it can carry one more unit.

If OTOH Dromon upgraded to Frigate it would lose carrying capacity in return for ROF 2 and +1 defence, but retain offensive capacity. And when Frigates are available, Galleons can be built to transport units.

The 'rationale' could be that the extra weaponry takes up the space where the passengers used to sit ^_^

It's kind of strange that the Byzantines actually *lose* the ability to mount naval offensives on discovering Astronomy (in my current game I have no Saltpeter, so even when I get to Magnetism I won't be able to achieve naval superiority - possibly until Combustion!!! - whereas before I discovered Astronomy I could have...)

[alexman]

The Caravel is also faster, and doesn't sink in sea tiles. So in most cases, I think the upgrade is worth it.
Also, if you haven't yet had your GA, you can build both Dromons and Caravels.

There are several examples of similarly awkward upgrades in Civ3: Gallic Swordsman to Medieval Infantry, the Impi to Pikeman, Jaguar Warrior to Swordsman.

[Theseus]

Is there a way to maintain the ability to build both Dromons and Caravels regardless of the GA?

[nbarclay]

I think it makes more sense to leave the upgrade path for Dromans alone.

1) Depending on a player's situation, upgrading at least some Dromans to caravels for their extra speed, transport capacity, and defense may make a huge amount of sense. Changing the upgrade path would take that opportunity away. Not everyone is a warmonger who views the Droman's primary purpose as blowing up other ships.

2) The worst nightmare for an opponent of the Byzantines in the medieval era is a mixed stack of Dromans and caravels. Dromans by themselves are no less vulnerable than galleys to being attacked and destroyed, and a stack of Dromans has only the advantage of defensive bombardment. But until Magnetism, most civs don't have anything that can attack a caravel effectively. Thus, a Droman/Caravel stack can let the Dromans do their offensive nastiness almost with impunity. With Dromans upgrading to caravels, whatever Dromans the Byzantines have when either their GA starts or they discover Astronomy, whichever comes later, are all they get. But without that upgrade path, the Byzantines could keep building both Dromans for attack and caravels for defense throughout a medieval war.

And Alexman, when you get the tech to build ships that don't sink in sea or ocean tiles, your obsolete galleys don't sink in those tiles either. You don't have to upgrade to travel safely. (Oceangoing AI galleys were what tipped me off to that fact.)

[geniemalin]

Oh - I hadn't realised that I could still build Dromons if I hadn't had my Golden Age (it got triggered by the Mausoleum just before I had planned to go into Anarchy to change out of Despotism - sigh....)

I usually play far more 'builder' than 'warmonger' but if I am choosing to mong some war as the Byzantines, it still doesn't make sense to me to actually *lose* the ability to create attacking ships by *gaining* a naval tech...

[lockstep]

I just found this in the readme of player1's Patch Suggestion Mod:

"Dromon cost is increased from 30 to 40 shields, since they are very powerful naval unit for that time. With their attack and bombard ratings they could even destroy Caravels and Galleons without problem. Plus, you could use them for bombardment of land units.

Dromon now upgrades to Frigate, since it's too useful to become obsolete with Caravel ... But, since this breaks upgrade chain of transport based vessels, to compensate I allowed Byzantines to build Galley if they like. That way even Byzantine Curraghs upgrade to Galleys and then to Caravels, while Dromons upgrade to Frigate. Also, this way if you really want to get transport quickly you can build cheaper Galley instead of Dromon."

(http://apolyton.net/forums/showthrea...hreadid=106579)

Sounds like a good idea IMO.

[Aqualung71]

I agree completely. In AU501 I was seriously P****d off when I could no longer build attack ships and had to wait until Frigates were available to build another 2-attack naval unit....and only then if I was lucky enough to have Saltpeter (which I wasn't).

[ducki]

when I could no longer build attack ships and had to wait until Frigates were available to build another 2-attack naval unit

I'd have to go double check the tech tree, but is this a handicap that the Byzantines have that no other Civ has to "endure"?

If this is a special case where we want to extend the (already) extremely useful Dromon's lifespan, I'm not sure I can agree.

This UU is already extremely powerful as noted in the player1 quote above and all the AU501 DARs. I'm just curious why it needs even more strength.

Also, if Curraghs stay on the transport path and Galleys are added to the Byzantines, you cannot upgrade into your UU - something that every other Civ can do, IIRC.
(EDIT: Every other Civ whose UU is not at the beginning of a path, that is.)

If the inconvenience is a side effect of having a very strong Unique unit, I think increasing its usefulness might make it too strong.

[alexman]

Well, if you're increasing its cost, as in the proposal above, you are reducing it's ancient-age power, which is where the unit is overpowering.

Allowing a 2-strength bombardment unit between Astronomy and Magnetism is not a significant advantage to the Byzantines, IMO, when the defenders of that time are Musketmen, and the land bombardment units have a strength of 8.

I like the proposal, although I'm not yet sure if the benefits are worth the change.

[ducki]

is not a significant advantage to the Byzantines

I'd rather not see this change then. Aren't UUs supposed to be a significant advantage? Maybe we're thinking of "significant" as different things.
And a naval UU, IMO, deserves a little extra over and above what we would think of as acceptible for a land unit, simply because it is a naval unit.

[Nor Me]

The main reason to change things is that Dromons are the only way the Byzantines could effectively attack caravels before Magnetism. Because caravels are harder to kill, the Dromon gives a bigger naval advantage than it does before Astronomy.

Even when compared with cannons, Dromons are more effective at hurting anything with a defence of less than 4 so they'd still be useful counter-attacking land units in the open.

It's still worth it now for the Byzantines to go for Astronomy on an archipelago and even upgrade Dromons to caravels, not least because they cross ocean so much faster in the AU mod. So when I've played the Byzantines, I've upgraded some Dromons to caravels and missed their attacking ability so much that I'd like to be able to build them.

I suppose that being able to build the galley as well is better than being able to build the curragh.

[ducki]

So when I've played the Byzantines, I've upgraded some Dromons to caravels and missed their attacking ability so much that I'd like to be able to build them.

I'm sorry if I'm being thick, but that sounds like wanting the cake and eating it too. I'm not trying to be difficult, I just am not understanding this as it pertains to balance, improving the AI, or increasing interesting decisionmaking for the human.

Again, I'm not trying to be difficult, I just don't "get it" in terms of AU. Please elaborate, I hate when I don't "get it".

[Aqualung71]

Originally posted by ducki

I'd have to go double check the tech tree, but is this a handicap that the Byzantines have that no other Civ has to "endure"?

It's a handicap to the extent that you can no longer build your unique unit (assuming you've had your GA) or a stronger replacement unit, so yes.

Dromons are quite useful tools in the hands of the AI - whenever I've played against the Byzantines I always see hordes of them floating around dumping fire all over the coastland. So I think this change would help the AI as it can upgrade its Dromons into a similar strength attack naval vessel. This would serve to lengthen the period of naval advantage that the Byzantines enjoy, which IMHO is not a bad thing.

[ducki]

to lengthen the period of naval advantage that the Byzantines enjoy

I just don't think they need it. The UU is not supposed to be a prolonged advantage - all of them are time-limited, some much moreso than the Byzantines.

That's my opinion, I could be biased.

[lockstep]

Originally posted by ducki
The UU is not supposed to be a prolonged advantage - all of them are time-limited ...

Yes, but normally the time-limit stems from newly available units with better stats that make the UU obsolete. Losing the ability to build a UU because it upgrades to another unit with worse stats (half the attack strength, no bombardment) is quite different IMO.

[nbarclay]

One of the great unique strategic challenges for the Byzantines under the standard rules is deciding how many Dromons to keep as Dromons and how many to upgrade to caravels or, later, galleons. With proper planning, a Byzantine player who wants to can build a fleet of Dromons before Astonomy, not upgrade any of them, and have a nice fleet of powerful naval attackers until Magnetism. (Consider, especially, the possibility of operating the Dromons in groups in order to reduce casualties.) Then, as frigates are built, the Dromons can be upgraded to galleons. Or a less offensive-minded Byzantine player can upgrade most of the Dromons to caravels and do without most of the naval firepower advantage Dromons provide through the rest of the medieval era. It's an interesting strategic choice. For that matter, the need to plan ahead and figure out how many Dromons will be desired for the rest of the medieval era before Astronomy also has some rather interesting strategic dimensions.

If I were part of the original C3C design team, I would likely favor Player1's approach over the way Dromons are currently implemented. The question of how to balance building Dromons against building galleys and caravels is also a strategically interesting one (at least with the cost of Dromons increased), and there are advantages to not having Dromons become obsolete until a regular unit with similar firepower becomes available. But I don't view the difference as big enough to be worth changing the rules for after the fact; at least not in what is supposed to be a conservative mod.

Nathan

[alexman]

Good discussion, but no new proposals. Therefore, let's mark the above proposed change as under consideration. Voting in a week.

[ducki]

What is under consideration? The Original Post(with the addition of Byantium being able to build Galleys AND Dromons) or player1's modification?

Just making sure, since I didn't see any clear and definite "Proposal".

[alexman]

The latter.

The original proposal was from 2003, and didn't receive much support.

[Theseus]

Originally posted by nbarclay
One of the great unique strategic challenges for the Byzantines under the standard rules is deciding how many Dromons to keep as Dromons and how many to upgrade to caravels or, later, galleons. With proper planning, a Byzantine player who wants to can build a fleet of Dromons before Astonomy, not upgrade any of them, and have a nice fleet of powerful naval attackers until Magnetism. (Consider, especially, the possibility of operating the Dromons in groups in order to reduce casualties.) Then, as frigates are built, the Dromons can be upgraded to galleons. Or a less offensive-minded Byzantine player can upgrade most of the Dromons to caravels and do without most of the naval firepower advantage Dromons provide through the rest of the medieval era. It's an interesting strategic choice. For that matter, the need to plan ahead and figure out how many Dromons will be desired for the rest of the medieval era before Astronomy also has some rather interesting strategic dimensions.

If I were part of the original C3C design team, I would likely favor Player1's approach over the way Dromons are currently implemented. The question of how to balance building Dromons against building galleys and caravels is also a strategically interesting one (at least with the cost of Dromons increased), and there are advantages to not having Dromons become obsolete until a regular unit with similar firepower becomes available. But I don't view the difference as big enough to be worth changing the rules for after the fact; at least not in what is supposed to be a conservative mod.

Nathan

Once again, I have to chime in in total support of Nathan (I am committed to a program of oscillating support ).

What to do with your Dromons, and your related build plan, is one of the most stark strategic decisions in the game.

And I like it.

[alexman]

Time to vote. We have 48 hours.

Yes/No:

• Increase cost of Dromon to 40 shields.
• Dromon upgrades to Frigate.
• Byzantines are allowed to build Galleys.

[ZargonX]

Don't mess with the Byz

1. No
2. No
3. No

[nbarclay]

No. (My interpretation is that this is a single package, since, for example, allowing the Byzantines to build galleys would be nonsensical in the absence of one or both of the other changes.)

[alexman]

Yes, it's a package.
(I usually number each item, with a separate Yes/No question for each, if they are not a package)

Still thinking about my vote.

[lockstep]

YES

[alexman]

No from me.
I like the idea, but not enough to justify a change.

[Stuie]

No.

[Theseus]

Nope.

[Nor Me]

No.