Irrigation through Hills with Cities?

ToeTruck · December 19, 2003, 16:05

Under PTW, Hills and Mountains blocked irrigation. Period. There was no way (before discovering Electricity) to get water across a hill/mountain line.

Under C3C, I think it is different. Playing a game of Conquests the other day, I could have sworn I irrigated a plains on the other side of a hill city. In other words, the city allowed the water to cross the hill.

It wasn't until later in the game when I was looking a the bare map (ctrl-shift-M) that I noticed this anomaly. Can anyone confirm this or do I have to go through my old save games?

Thanks.
- TT

Arrian · December 19, 2003, 16:24

Yes, I can confirm it.

You can irrigate through a city built on a hill in Conquests.

I was rather surprised to find that out myself...

-Arrian

Snotty · December 19, 2003, 16:24

I think I spotted the same thing.

Rhothaerill · December 19, 2003, 16:48

Yes you definitely can. Startled me too.

Catt · December 19, 2003, 16:51

It's another of those bugs that were fixed somewhere in PTW but have appeared again in C3C for whatever reason.

Catt

Nor Me · December 19, 2003, 16:57

I was surprised by this too. It can be quite useful.

ChrisiusMaximus · December 19, 2003, 17:32

It makes perfect sense to me and see no reason to change it. Would'nt a city have a means to move water from one side of its sprawl to another?

alva · December 19, 2003, 19:04

Quote:

It's another of those bugs that were fixed somewhere in PTW but have appeared again in C3C for whatever reason.

Catt

Ahh, so it is a bug and not by design?

Catt · December 19, 2003, 23:44

Quote:

Originally posted by alva

Quote:

It's another of those bugs that were fixed somewhere in PTW but have appeared again in C3C for whatever reason.

Catt

Ahh, so it is a bug and not by design?

I guess I'd probably agree with ChrisiusMaximus that it seems an interesting design decision (provided the AI could utilize it effectively).

But I think it is most probably a bug -- it cropped up in PTW (perhaps the release version) and was changed back to the "no irrigation" functionality we're used to in a subsequent patch.

Catt

alva · December 20, 2003, 07:37

Thanks.
Could be quite usefull on certain (badly generated?) maps.

Snotty · December 20, 2003, 07:43

Im in a 80% islands pbem at the moment and have a whole bunch of plains that could do with the water. If only it weren't for that pesky hill

Nor Me · December 20, 2003, 12:05

Quote:

Originally posted by alva
Thanks.
Could be quite usefull on certain (badly generated?) maps.

It's quite useful for the Aztecs and Maya in Age of Discovery.

Dis · December 21, 2003, 04:30

Yep. The Aztecs start on a hill.

But I always thought you could irrage over if you built your city on a hill and the hill is only 1 tile wide (ie you have plains/grassland on either side).

SirOsis · December 21, 2003, 14:36

Quote:

Originally posted by Snotty
Im in a 80% islands pbem at the moment and have a whole bunch of plains that could do with the water. If only it weren't for that pesky hill

I don't know why you're complaining. At least you HAVE water! Water is very scarce in that game.

ToeTruck · December 21, 2003, 14:37

Thanks everyone for the confirmation and comments. I just wanted to make sure that what I was seeing was indeed a general feature/bug and not unique to my specific situation.

Personally, I kind of like the old way. It makes the game more interesting (in my mind at least) to have the extra challenge of "dry areas". Also, there are enough things in Civ3 that promote artificial city placements as it is.

I will take advantage of it while its there, though.

Happy Holidays.

- TT

Kuciwalker · December 22, 2003, 00:26

I don't see any reason for it to be one way or the other.

MrWhereItsAt · December 22, 2003, 02:31

Quote:

Originally posted by Arrian
Yes, I can confirm it.

You can irrigate through a city built on a hill in Conquests.

I was rather surprised to find that out myself...

-Arrian

Surprised?

I was surprised when I read that you were surprised, especially since I clearly remembered a PtW game (v1.27f) where I did exactly this.

Luckily I found the save, and after pillaging the irrigation that I had just set down through the hill city some turns earlier, you can clearly see that the worker can irrigate that grass tile. There is no nearby water except the coast, and I am on Printing Press (so no Electricity!). The game has not been modded in any way.

In fact, when I started searching for the save, I thought that perhaps this 'bug' had been in v1.21f, and been changed for the latest version. However, in whichever version I started this game in (99% certain v1.27f, remaining 1% chance of v1.21f) it was possible to irrigate through hill cities, and it is possible again when loaded into PtW v1.27f.

Any explanation to this, or has it ALWAYS been possible to irrigate through Hills?

bongo · December 22, 2003, 04:23

Well, if you can place a city there, why not using the tile as a link in your irrigation network?

I like it, it helps the human a bit. The AI can irrigate everywhere, even before electricity. Which gives the peculiar strategy of waiting to capture a dry area until the AI has started with irrigation there...

Dr. A. Cula · December 22, 2003, 08:09

There's something about that coast line that made me think. Without irrigating that tile, try moving your worker 8 of where it is now and see if you can irrigate that one. I might be wrong, but the game might consider the blob of water 9 of your current position to be a lake. I have seen such lakes in a lot of my games, since vanilla Civ3 to PTW 1.21f.

Dominae · December 22, 2003, 10:33

Quote:

Originally posted by bongo
The AI can irrigate everywhere, even before electricity.

I'm quite certain that this is false.

Stuie · December 22, 2003, 10:49

Quote:

Originally posted by MrWhereItsAt

There is no nearby water except the coast, and I am on Printing Press (so no Electricity!).

Not to nitpick, but researching Printing Press is not valid proof of not having Electricity since Printing Press is an optional tech.

ToeTruck · December 22, 2003, 11:42

Quote:

Originally posted by Dr. A. Cula
There's something about that coast line that made me think. Without irrigating that tile, try moving your worker 8 of where it is now and see if you can irrigate that one. I might be wrong, but the game might consider the blob of water 9 of your current position to be a lake. I have seen such lakes in a lot of my games, since vanilla Civ3 to PTW 1.21f.

I think you are correct. That blob of water is really a lake and that's why the grassland can be irrigated.

I'm just about positive that PTW 1.27f did not allow irrigation through hilled cities.

- TT

Nor Me · December 22, 2003, 14:45

Nice theory but I looked at the save with PTW and it doesn't look like a lake:

Dominae · December 22, 2003, 14:55

It's not a lake because the tile SE of it is not a land tile.

Jaybe · December 22, 2003, 15:00

BTW, in C3C the definitions of "lake" have changed. A "sea" tile doesn't invalidate a "lake" anymore.

Arrian · December 22, 2003, 15:49

That is odd. Is Heliopolis definitely built on a hill (looks like it, but I'm running out of ideas here).

I was pretty sure that PTW 1.27 did not allow irrigation through hill cities, but I suppose it's possible that it got changed and I never noticed...

-Arrian

bongo · December 22, 2003, 16:54

Dominae, I am pretty sure I have seen lots of irrigated tiles in funny places inside AI territory. I'm going to check a few saves before I call it a fact though..

Arrian · December 22, 2003, 17:08

I have never seen a proven case of the AI irrigating where it shouldn't be able to. Not once.

I've seen a lot of claims that were proven false, however.

-Arrian

GhengisFarb™ · December 22, 2003, 22:28

I tried to irrigate over a hill city in PTW and it didn't work. I was really suprised when it was an option to my Worker in Conquests. I don't have the latest PTW patch though so it may have been recently added via patch.

MrWhereItsAt · December 23, 2003, 01:21

Quote:

Originally posted by Arrian
That is odd. Is Heliopolis definitely built on a hill (looks like it, but I'm running out of ideas here).

-Arrian

Confirmed. It is definitely on a hill. The worker cannot irrigate either North or south of that tile, It seems pretty evident that it is only being next to the city that provides the irrigation source.

Any other takers?