Boris' pissed off and he's telling you why - Page 10

Harry Tuttle · December 23, 2003, 02:01

I'll make the point of bread and circuses when arguing about popular dictators. Even Mussolini made the trains run on time.

The difference is that dictators tend to shut out all competition, period. Whereas a dictatorship of the majority in the average nation still allows the minority to have a say in minor elections, government, free press, etc...

Popular dictators remain popular out of choice because of two things: Information control and selective incentives for the majority. Basically the people supporting the dictators don't know any better or they benefit all the more from having that dictator in power.

Q Classic · December 23, 2003, 02:08

by the way, you should visit my website, oncle.

here.

Oncle Boris · December 23, 2003, 02:24

Quote:

why would they think the few extra bucks are worth it? could it be that they might need the extra bucks? people would shovel **** and clean out the insides of an oil depot out of the goodness of their hearts? jesus, i need to find them, because i could really use their generosity to pay for my education.

In fact, many people study in Quebec because of the cheaper costs and then get away in the US where salaries are higher.
If you want to immigrate to Quebec, you're welcome. There are plenty of left-wing idiots willing to charge you 1/20 the cost of an American university.

Then you can have beer with the sponges collecting their welfare check.

We don't buy nearly as much SUVs as in the US, but again it'll help us meeting the Kyoto protocol requirements. You know, that criminal leftist conspiration.

Q Classic · December 23, 2003, 02:28

well, no offense, but having a degree from certain big-name universities in the states adds a certain cachet...

it's more impressive to say, "i have a degree from harvard/yale/columbia/georgetown/university of chicago/stanford" than it is to say "i have a degree from university of montreal."

===

what's wrong with buying suvs? i love 'em. the bigger, the better. i like the one that daimlerchrysler put out that was based on a chassis for a semi. huge thing. hummers are nice too, but i can't afford those, and daddy won't buy me one.

and the kyoto protocol did suck. even the russians agreed.

Oncle Boris · December 23, 2003, 02:30

All right guys,

I WAS JOKING ABOUT THE DICTATOR THING.

Just having some fun. Caesar or Napoleon being popular won't ever make me pro-despotism, don't worry.

Q Classic · December 23, 2003, 02:33

well, as much as i like democracy, there's something to be said about authoritarian governments. i mean, mussolini did make the trains run on time. park chung-hee did jump-start south korea's miraculous economic growth. so not all dictators are that bad.

Oncle Boris · December 23, 2003, 02:52

OK Imran

Here is for Hydro-Quebec: http://www.hydroquebec.com/en/

from there you can read electricity price comparison and see the company annual report. They are doing just fine.

As for electricity prices, they are not the cheapest in the world but still rank amongst the best in North America.

The graph about Quebec:

The graph you gave was about GDP growth as a raw number, but not as a per capita one.

So duh, Ontario is more populated than Quebec, so its numbers are higher. Population also grew faster, thus contributing even more to the trend.

You must also consider that Quebec has a strong separatist movement, which has had a detrimental effect on economic growth. Many rich citizens and entrepreneurs left the province, fearing that a state ran by French Canadians would go bankrupt, forbid use of English, and become something like of a communist regime. Of course it was pure BS but the bad had been done.

Now: I will agree that Quebec is poorer than most of Canada. But I think real per capita numbers indicate that the gap has not widened, but just stayed about the same. Before the sixties, French Canadians were considered an inferior race and were paid less than their English counterparts. Segregation was never nearly as bad as in the south of USA but there was some.
Feel free to find some numbers if you want to prove that the gap has widened. The fact is, we don't care. People just like the solidarity thinking behind SD and want it to stay that way. There are still many people in the world who don't value wealth as much as in the US.

In short, Quebec is a particular case that needs more than a graph.

And by the way: don't tell French Canadians Quebec is not a country. It might be true politically, but many of them certainly feel like having a distinct society, somewhere in a place we call "Heart".

Oncle Boris · December 23, 2003, 02:56

Quote:

Originally posted by Q Cubed
well, no offense, but having a degree from certain big-name universities in the states adds a certain cachet...

Just like Hugo Boss clothes will make you look like refined and stylish. I'd rather get some French poetry of the 19th century. 1% of the price and twice the attitude. Chicks just love it.

Q Classic · December 23, 2003, 03:18

that only works if the school teaches you proper elocution. state schools don't always have that benefit.

besides, unlike you, the rest of us who go there aren't looking for mrs degrees.

Oncle Boris · December 23, 2003, 03:32

Quote:

Originally posted by Q Cubed
that only works if the school teaches you proper elocution. state schools don't always have that benefit.

besides, unlike you, the rest of us who go there aren't looking for mrs degrees.

Oh, as a sidenote, I'm studying in a private College.
I guess they don'T always have the benefit of elocuted students.

JohnT · December 23, 2003, 03:44

http://www.unhchr.ch/udhr/lang/eng.htm

... tons of rights, but not word one about responsibilities.

Oncle Boris · December 23, 2003, 04:02

Quote:

Originally posted by JohnT
http://www.unhchr.ch/udhr/lang/eng.htm

... tons of rights, but not word one about responsibilities.

Yes, it is a 11 years-old responsibility to make sure he's not being sent to the sweatshop by his parents instead of the school.
It is certainly not up to Nike to say: go to school, little one. And it is certainly not up to Nike to pay taxes that would help the little kid's parents not having to send him to work just to pay the electricity bill.
Talk about irresponsible, ungrateful bastards. Those Indonesians, when they understand that US-supported Suharto (one of the worst despot of the 70s) was here to bring them wealth, will be so thankful to the American citizens.

Now seriously. I find it INCREDIBLE that you are talking about personal responsibilities while half of the world population is illiterate and doesn't have access to damn drinking water. How can you claim it is their fault? How can you claim it is someones' fault to be born with the AIDS while his parents don't even know what a virus is?

I wonder what would happen if the US government spent 100 billions less on the army and 100 billions more on digging wells for Africans. Probably the collapse of the world and the rise of a new leftist conspiracy, huh?

Imran Siddiqui · December 23, 2003, 09:29

Quote:

The graph you gave was about GDP growth as a raw number, but not as a per capita one.

Who does GDP GROWTH per capita?! Growth is simply how much did the economy improve. 'per capita' has nothing to do with it.

Quote:

don't tell French Canadians Quebec is not a country. It might be true politically, but many of them certainly feel like having a distinct society, somewhere in a place we call "Heart".

Kind of like the morons in the South who say 'The South shall rise again'?

JohnT · December 23, 2003, 10:56

Quote:

Originally posted by Oncle Boris

Yes, it is a 11 years-old responsibility to make sure he's not being sent to the sweatshop by his parents instead of the school.
It is certainly not up to Nike to say: go to school, little one. And it is certainly not up to Nike to pay taxes that would help the little kid's parents not having to send him to work just to pay the electricity bill.
Talk about irresponsible, ungrateful bastards. Those Indonesians, when they understand that US-supported Suharto (one of the worst despot of the 70s) was here to bring them wealth, will be so thankful to the American citizens.

Now seriously. I find it INCREDIBLE that you are talking about personal responsibilities while half of the world population is illiterate and doesn't have access to damn drinking water. How can you claim it is their fault? How can you claim it is someones' fault to be born with the AIDS while his parents don't even know what a virus is?

I wonder what would happen if the US government spent 100 billions less on the army and 100 billions more on digging wells for Africans. Probably the collapse of the world and the rise of a new leftist conspiracy, huh?

Just a little histrionic here, aren't we?

Given that the document is little more than a list of supposed "rights" that every man, woman, and child in the world is "owed," where is the corresponding UN list in regards to the obligations the individual owes towards society?

For discussions sake, let's limit the question to those people in the province of (what was it, Quebec?) who have a "right" to $500/month. What are the responsibilities they owe to their society?

DinoDoc · December 23, 2003, 11:35

Quote:

Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui
Kind of like the morons in the South who say 'The South shall rise again'?

It did just that and took over.

Oncle Boris · December 23, 2003, 15:46

Quote:

For discussions sake, let's limit the question to those people in the province of (what was it, Quebec?) who have a "right" to $500/month. What are the responsibilities they owe to their society?

First, the UN declaration has a few instances of mentioning "common law".

And, to a more fundamental point:

If the UN thinks of the Declaration as a basis for Justice, then your responsibility towards society is to make sure these basis are respected.

Mind you, the Declaration does not say you don't have to work, but talks about unemployment protection- which kinds of imply that a normal human will work.
What you don't understand is that huge welfare hasn't made couch potatoes societies. Think of Sweden, a champ of economic growth in the 90s. And yes, the average economic growth of Quebec since 1995 has exceeded the US. Huh? Yes. I'm not lying.

The Welfare states have had troubles keeping up in the 70s and the 80s, but a trend in the 90s has shown that many of them have started to take their revenge against the US. Which means: there is so much more to economic growth than reducing Public expenditures as a percentage of GDP.

Now to other facts: Even though GDP inflation-relativized growth shows the US has had economic growth since the 80s, guess what? The buying power of the middle class has not increased. That of the rich has. Which means: the rich doesn't really want welfare. They got wealthier even though poverty figures and middle class standards of life have remained similar. Wealth redistribution is not and never will be a natural course of thing.

And now to some fundamental values: why are there 4 times more murders in the US than in Canada? Why is it that the majority of Canadians think a gun is unnecessary to their security?
Why is it that poverty figures are 5 times lower in Sweden, and still 50% lower in Canada? Why is it that the richest country in the world ranks below 20th both for education and healtcare accessibility?

Some people are willing to give up SUVs and home theaters for this kind of social justice. Guess what? There are much less cars per capita in Quebec than in the US. And what does it do? Less pollution, less traffic. Better public transportation.
Some societies in the world are telling you: we are willing to give up the rich's SUVs, five-star cruises and home theaters for this kind of social justioe.
You don't agree with us? Fine. Then don't use the WTO to force the opposite through sheer power. Stop funding the righ-wing guerillas in Latin America. We'll leave you to your beliefs as long as you don't abuse your power to impose them.

Free market tells us that equality should be brought through work. Not considering that being born in a rich country has nothing to do with you work. Not considering that equality is then something that has to be earned if you were not born in such country. Randomness of being born from a rich family has nothing to do with equality.
Finally, not considering that as long the same work doesn't pay the same throughout the world, there can't be some kind of free market equality. There can just be the logic of profit without long-term thinking behind it.
Acting morally is being coherent: good for you is good for others. If child labor is bad for the US, why should it be good for Malaysia?
Claiming the opposite is not acting morally: it is acting economically, which has nothing to do with justice. "They can rot till free market brings them wealth (which is already dubious); how would I care anyway, since my ancestors have built a country for me?"

Thank you very much, I'll keep my Quebecois Social-democracy, even if that means giving 50% of my salary to the state. Even if that means that for each abuser of the 500$ rule, there will be some honest men and women who lost their job and badly need the money.
Even if that means 2% growth instead of 3%. Because I already have a computer, an apartment, clothes, food, a refrigerator and a washing machine. What's the urge to get more?

Oncle Boris · December 23, 2003, 16:11

edit: Arrrrgh double post

Kuciwalker · December 23, 2003, 16:12

^ double-post

EDIT: he fixed it

JohnT · December 23, 2003, 16:14

Uh, I don't really see a response to my question in all that. Never mind, I do the same myself.

Oncle Boris · December 23, 2003, 16:19

Quote:

Originally posted by JohnT
Uh, I don't really see a response to my question in all that. Never mind, I do the same myself.

I did answer your question, John.

These guys' only responsibility is in respecting the law.
The reasoning behind this is that working is not a responsibility towards society, but a responsibility towards yourself.

If you don't agree, feel free to explain why. I'm happy to have the occasion to discuss with people outside my country.

And BTW, I'd like to you to voice your opinion in my thread about protesters in Miami and Harry Tuttle.

JohnT · December 23, 2003, 16:25

I think it's a nice looking thread, filled with proper UBB coding.

Too busy to go into detail, but I frankly think that every able-bodied/minded person in their working years owes a responsibility to society to work, to be productive. Yeah, you're gonna bring up Indonesians again and HIV-ridden people in Africa, which will do nothing but obfuscate the subject. So why don't we go ahead and save us all the effort and call it a draw, with each of us thinking that the other doesn't know what the hell they're talking about. It'll save me a lot of time and you a lot of typing.

Ned · December 23, 2003, 16:54

Boris, I never got an good answer to this question:

http://apolyton.net/forums/showthrea...62#post2580662

Second, you complain about US corporations not setting up social welfare in third world countries, paying low wages, and raping the countries of their natural resources.

Right?

But, corportations from countries other than the US also do business in the third world. What do they do about the social welfare of the locals, etc.?

Q Classic · December 23, 2003, 20:33

Quote:

Kind of like the morons in the South who say 'The South shall rise again'?

imran, don't make me kick your lilly-white northern ass back up there now.

===

as for corporate behavior in the third world:
americans, europeans, and the japanese and koreans had to go through a period of brutal work conditions to industrialize and modernize. why should they have it any different?