The early-game blues...

[furrykef]

I love the Civ games. I think they're among the best games ever made, and I play all kinds of games from all eras...but there's a problem I have with every Civ game I've touched (Civ II: ToT, SMAC/X, Civ III/Conquests)...

I'm having trouble finding a game that's just right. I do get one from time to time, though eventually I lose the will to complete it. But much more often I get stuck in what I call the early-game blues, where I might spend a day just starting over, trying to get a good, but not overly dominant, starting position on a reasonably-sized continent, with reasonable terrain, with a couple of neighbors nearby to keep things interesting...and then not screwing it up once I find a good map.

The thing is I tend to start over at the first excuse to do so. If some minor inefficiency occurs early in the game (for instance I notice a size-2 city with 2 turns remaining to build a settler, but 8 turns for the next citizen, and switching production either loses shields or switches to something I don't need yet), it'll bug me for the rest of it. Or maybe I lose a worker or settler to barbarians. And I just start over. I think I haven't had a game that actually made it to the Industrial Age, or if I did, it was only one and it was about a year ago.

So, I have a few questions:
1. How common is this "I reset too much" syndrome? I know starting over when dealt a truly bad deck is common, but how long do you keep at it before you go with what you're given?
2. What should I do to stop it? Just force myself to live with what circumstances I'm handed? Maybe play a few quick MP games where I can't bail out so easily, forcing me to deal with the cards I'm handed?
3. What map settings are good for simple, not-too-easy, not-too-hard game for, if there were such a thing, an "experienced beginner" with a 'hybrid' playstyle (a little warmonger here, a little builder there)? I tend to leave everything at the default, though I sometimes change the map size. I usually play Regent but I'm considering jumping to Monarch, just so interesting things can start happening sooner, without enabling Accelerated Production (makes the game feel artificial to me for single-player epic games). I'm also playing with highest barbarian setting since I'm the Mayans, just so I can get a feel for barbarian-hunting. Prima's Civ 3 strategy guide seems to suggest leaving the climate and age settings alone for a smooth experience, but I notice a lot of what the guide says isn't worth a load of dingo's kidneys.
4. Are the Mayans as great for a hybrid style as I think they are? I'd think that industrious + agricultural (spread out and build up fast!) does well for both builders and warmongers, and warmongering gets an additional boost through the Javs, so you have a "big stick" as well as a semi-exploit to bolster your production even more...

And a couple questions regarding general strategy for REXing and building up your infrastructure:
5. Is forest good for shield production for the first few cities, when you don't have enough workers to mine the shielded grasslands (yes, I'm aware they should be irrigated later on, but this is the early game)? Not to mention I might not have much shielded grassland...
6. Is pop-rushing still a good tactic? If so, when should you do it? I've heard this mentioned a few times, but I'm having trouble finding a thread that discusses pop-rushing in depth at all, let alone one that may be relevant to C3C...can somebody maybe point me to one?

As a side note, I think I'm going to begin to treat every goodie hut as having three barbarians, which will position themselves in whatever manner will give me most grief...like right next to my only worker...barbarians seem to be making me start over a lot more often than they used to.

- Kef

[Sarxis]

I usually just play through whatever position I start in. I like good start positions just as much as anybody, but if I get a crap start, I'll play that too and see how far I'll get.

I don't mind playing the underdog or 3rd world nation. It can be fun.

[vmxa1]

furrykef

I would say it probably not too common to restart often. Mainly it takes up too much time. If you want to see a prime case of aking what you get, look at a game called "so very cold of the AI'.
There are many games with DAR/AAR's that show how you can deal with a bad hand. In short it is a good way to learn to play better for SP games.

I would say losing a worker is lazy, losing a setter is, well too ugly to even contemplate. I can think of a few scenarios where I may put one at risk, but is very rare.

Map settings would be hard to suggest as who knows what your skill sets is and your taste. Stick with what you are using now until you master it.

Mayan can be great, but as you get into higher levels the early GA can be a problem. I would not suggest raging barbs for regent players even with the Mayans. Roaming is enough, just leave some open land for the camps to respawn if you really want to harvest slaves.

Forrest are great for early cities to get some easy shields, just get a road to them for the cash and the movement. If you have an extra tile or two that can be used for a chop to expedite a granary or a barracks, that is sweet.
Not sure what you mean about irrigating shielded grasslands later. I would not irrigate them ever, well maybe when you get to 20+ size, it may be required. I can't recall doing it much though.

Pop rushing is not something I use for the most part. Here an there I will under a crunch or if playing deity. It has been used effectively by some, so maybe they can address it. I seem to recall it was zapped a bit to make it less attractive??

It seems that C3C has made huts even more likely to be barbs. I am playing as America to use expansion and still only got one tech and one settler.
I would highly suggest not popping huts near town, unless it is defended and has no worker in the line of fire.
The good news is that the barbs seem to be reluctant to attack. It seems rare that all three will come at you, unless they get you into the red.

Thats my perspective and I am sticking to it.

[furrykef]

I rarely lose settlers, but in some Agricultural games (where my first city sometimes has a huge food influx and can't build more than one warrior, if that, before it's time to build a settler) I have to send Settlers blindly into the darkness for the first couple of cities. Hence, on the off occasion, they'll get snapped off by barbs because the site I decided to found my city happened to be right next to a barb camp...ugh. It's rare, though.

I lose workers more often to barbs, mainly because of popping huts. As I said, though, I'm beginning to take the policeman's approach: treat any goodie hut as though it were loaded. Anything I lose by popping it later is offset by the extra security I feel, I suppose...and not having to start over so much helps me get out of this rut.

Though that didn't stop one barb from killing every freaking Warrior I had in the vicinity, including the one defending my capital (which I moved to attack the barb so the barb won't slay a worker). Amazingly I did get another warrior out there to finally vanquish that mothertrucker before he managed to take the worker or my capital.

Amazingly, I haven't even felt the urge to reset even though I lost so many warriors, and my first city wasn't on a fantastic site either (no river or big bonuses, but some shielded grasslands and forests). My second city is on a river, though, so my first city will be my production center and my second city my growth center. I think this game will be fine. If I'm stuck on a small island or something I'll probably try to live with it.


BTW, about why shielded grasslands should be irrigated eventually, there's an old thread about that in the Strategy section: http://apolyton.net/forums/showthrea...threadid=58357

To summarize, if one mines normal grassland and irrigates shielded grassland, then all the grassland will benefit from the +1 shield during mobilization and during a Golden Age. But mining remains the better option to bump production in ancient times, especially because of the despotism hit. It also remains a good option for small cities. Some people don't like the strategy altogether and ignore it, preferring to go for shields all the time. It's a matter of both preference and what the situation demands.

- Kef

[UnityScoutChopper]

Hi Furrykef,

I have a similar problem -- I rarely play beyond the first session, even more rarely beyond the second or third, because of "huge map laziness syndrome" and "what will that next position look like syndrome." Maybe it's my ADD... I don't really know.

As regards sending settlers off into the darkness... do you mean the fog of war, or uncovered tiles? The latter should be a really rare event IMO.

USC

[vee4473]

I'm curious if this restart syndrome of yours is the same for other games as well.

It almost seems like more of an across the board trait rather than a civ-specific one.

I mean, restarting is common, but at the level of frustration that you described, it seems that it may go deeper than just a civ thing.

Perhaps creating a custom map that has everything where you want it and great starting locations is the answer?

[Snotty]

I used to suffer terribly from the restart syndrome. I would not start over to get more cows, but swiftly became bored with a game by about 2 cities.

All that kind of thing stopped with MP however.

I tend to pop-rush quite a bit. Rel temple are a prime candidate. A corrupt 1 shield/+2 food city can produce one ten turns after you build it. Essential for pushing cultural borders. In fact, if you place a new city right up against an uncultured enemy city, you can push their border back to right next to their city a couple of turns after you build the temple.

[Shogun Gunner]

I also have cured myself from the dreaded disease, "restart disorder". I went cold turkey and I will not allow myself to restart a game. For many games, I choose random settings, even random civ assignment for myself. I realized how much time I was wasting by restarting.

Now, when you do that, a lot of your starts will be less than optimal. Not every start has to have a river, coast, luxury, 2 cows and hills not mountains.

I've slowed down my playstyle. I used to rush through turn by turn to build a tempo, not realizing I was missing the game. Every second or third turn, I will open a city display and cycle through every city to review worked tiles, tiles needing improvement, build queues, etc. That put me back in touch with the game. After that, its a simple task to review two or three of the advisors (military, domestic, science). I don't think the trade, cultural are all that important....the foreign advisor if I have a reason.

When I slowed down, that gave me time to consider my actions. Really give it a try. If you put the start position and the ability to restart mentally outside of your control, you will be surprised how you get sucked into the game. You will start to care and live through your units, cities and civ. The games I've enjoyed, that feeling was present.

[vmxa1]

furrykef get those scouts/warriors out to explore so you do not have darkness. There is a time that no barbs are in the game and you can get away with sending a settler out, but it is short.

I want a camp to crank out vet units to send with each settler to any new sites. Especially since I may get in a war if any wandering settler come my way (below deity). I like to cripple them a bit by killing that settler combo at emp and sometimes demi. Above that, I am leery about getting into a war as they have too many units to toss at me, it depends on when they show up.

I want to keep a few units out to push back any barb camps once we get deep into the ancient age. A few sentries parked or roving will do the trick. Once you get close to the next age and the uprising is triggered, I do not want 8 horsemen showing up at my farthest city. Plus the 25 gold for camp busting is very handy.

[Shogun Gunner]

vmxa1, what's your strategy for protecting against the raging uprising with the new age? I have towns sacked eight times in a row, depleting the treasury substantially when that occurs. Its a bummer....

[Cerbykins]

The first part involves the settings I play at. I have this annoying taste for score, so it tends to be huge maps

If you want the easy life, stick to average settings for everything. But, if you're me - and suffer from the ideal that beating a difficulty level means beating ANYTHING it can throw at you...then go random

Random barbs, random world-form, random climate, age and such forth. Even random civ and random opponents. One of the problems I had in Civ 1 was actually deciding which civ to play...not a problem if you're random

Don't make the world size random though. Seems a bit pointless to me...2 hours or 42 hours? Bit of a weird thing to be random about :P

--------------------------

Funny you should mention it, I'm actually making my 3rd stab at moving to Monarch

The 1st attempt was about a year back, back when I still played 'peacful'
It got a little too close for comfort, so I went back down to learn how to kill.

So, a year on...

Start of C3C, try again
Only to find, my precious FP a wreck and combat unbelievably streaky

Post-patch, back again :P

Map? Apparently, according to 'play last world', it's 80% water archipelago, cold, wet and - it's only redeeming feature - 5 billion years old

Now, after months without a killer civ, Persia pops up out of the blue and is determined to get it's way. Proves my point about no mercy, this game - why should I give in to demands for a peace I probably won't get? England couldn't even keep in an alliance longer than a turn...FACT...so why would a civ who thinks they can make me a main course keep peace just because I paid them?

And as for humans being treated fairly in all respects not trade...explain to me how the one-city Iroquois have peace and yet the Persians - even the comparatively weak Zulu, in a previous era, single me out for treatment?

This has gone far enough. Punishment time
See the signature

Frankly, if I win this, I think I've earned my stripes. It may not be Aeson's 'so very cold', but it's a close second for me. More like, 'so very wet' (half the opening land mass was jungle :P )

Oh, and early game blues? I got Spain and Germany, both very blue
Now blue as in, deoxygenated - as in, kaputt, gone

Guess I could throw in my 'in-progress' file, too....1355, about to slam on the Zulu and finish infrastructure in prepartion for the big eastern campaign. Persia big? Perhaps - we'll see

By doing this, I commit to finishing the game. Let's hope I win

(sorry about the name - it uses my save-classification system )

[vmxa1]

Originally posted by Shogun Gunner
vmxa1, what's your strategy for protecting against the raging uprising with the new age? I have towns sacked eight times in a row, depleting the treasury substantially when that occurs. Its a bummer....

My first attempt is to not having any space for a camp to spawn when it is near time for the next age. So if no place to create a camp, no uprising. This can be done by placing cities and sentries.

In AU208 or whatever one was the all war one, I had a large landmass and I had to make lots of horses and archers to cover all the land. Most games a a few horses will do it.

In my current game I was at war with all three civs and had a spawn near one city. I was able to handle them with three AC units. I lost one, but only because it was damage and the other two could not get there in time. The barbs were on a hill as well.
They did not get to the city. It was ringed with forrest to prevent a quick attack.

If it is clear that you cannot stop them from looting a city, use most of the gold up. Leave just enough for each barb.

I had to do that in one game, I bought all I could and gifted the extra to one of the AI civs. It turns out they did not get to the city anyway. Then sell them a tech to recover the gold.