Your Starting Position, and What to Do About It

[Theseus]

Related to the "Winning Early..." thread, I had a good idea (I think ).

For newer players, well, everyone actually, I think this is really the crux of the game.

You start a new game... you scan your position... and WHAT FRIGGIN' NEXT??!!

Move the Settler, or no? Capitol as Settler Pump? Rampant exploration? Etcetera etcetara...

So, while I know the excitement of the first few dozen moves of a game, I'd like to suggest that players post their opening screenshot before playing on, and solicit the forum's advice.

In fact, this is not just for newer players... I think there'd be interesting commentary, useful to all, if some of the more experienced did so and also posted their initial thoughts.

Just to name two, having watched Dominae and Nathan (nbarclay) in the demogames, and of course having been awed by Aeson's economic performance many times, I and others would surely love a peek into your thinking at that first crucial moment in time.

/me thinks this is a reaaallllly cool idea, and hopes it becomes as instructive as cracker's thread at CFC.

[Cruddy]

Originally posted by Theseus

...* Theseus thinks this is a reaaallllly cool idea, and hopes it becomes as instructive as cracker's thread at CFC.

Very unlikely... but I think it fair to say that the early moves are shaped not just by the start location, but also to a certain extent by your civ traits.

I mean, if you're military/expansionist, there's not a lot of point aiming at an early cultural lead, because the religious and scientific civs will beat you to it.

[steven8r]

Well Theseus, I think this could be a really good thread. I don't seem to ever get a starting location that is anything spectacular--no bonus resources and somehow I've managed to win a couple of Monarch games.

I consider myself VERY lucky if I can even get a River near my start.

Here's my opening (and it's certainly up for critique):
Depending upon the terrain (I may move my Worker to get a slightly better view) I will either plop my Settler down right there or I will move him 1 spot, then build the next turn.

After I get my city I'll build Warriors to help scout-out my next city location. I look for bonuses or rivers or whatever (sometimes just a place NOT in Tundra).

I generally try to get several cities going before I build any improvements. However, if Religious, I will sometimes build a Temple second or third for my borders to expand to take advantage of the surrounding territory.

I almost NEVER restart. Perhaps this hurts my game, but I've usually been able to eek-out a victory.

I'm open to better suggestions,


Steven

[Cerbykins]

1) I don't move. Evidence I've heard here suggests you almost always shouldn't anyway, but it's laziness on my part
2) First city, 2 warriors or warrior-spearman. One warrior to explore, other unit to defend.
3) Depending on size of continent, get granaries at least in the capital, and perhaps the next couple of cities.
4) One defender for follow-on cities. Follow with a worker, then either barracks or granary depending on need to fill the continent.
5) On finishing those, barracks cities go to swords/best attackers. Granaries go to settlers.

Of course, they're not hard and fast rules. A capital with especially good/bad food production should go to a settler before a granary, either to escape the bad start or make use of the benefits of high initial growth.

Anyway - far from perfect, I know. Probably defies the REX rules, whatever they are (never fully understood it anyway )

It's doing me fine for Monarch, any case.
Feedback if you will, on how foolish I am

[Alex]

good idea, Theseus, I'll post mine as soon as I finish this game I'm playing right now.

[Theseus]

OK, I'll try to kick things off:

Standard, Continents, 80% water, Restless, Wet, Cool, 3B, Byzantine (SCI/SEA, start with BW and Alph), Monarch, More Aggressive, 7 random AI civs.

The starting tile is mined grassland, btw.

Thoughts?

(I can post the 4000BC save too, if anyone is interested)

[steven8r]

Since the starting tile is bonus grassland, if you settle there, you won't get the extra shield. However, there's Wheat and plenty of shields near-by, so I would just plop-down right there.

If you were a real stickler about losing that bonus shield, you could move SW (hit the 1 key) and settle on the hill. However, that would give you more coastal squares w/in your city radius and fewer terrestrial ones. (I, personally, like to have as few Coastal squares as possible.)

Decision: Plant your city right where the Settler's at, and have your Worker Road/Mine the Wheat.

Edit: or have him Mine/Road it. I can't remember all the debate about the order. /Edit

Out of curriosity, what are those Smiley Faces in the Forrest?

Steven

[Arrian]

I'd probably move southwest (1) to the hill. The worker starts roading.

T1 - settler moves 1, worker begins road.
T2 - settler founds Constantinople, WF to bonus grass, begin warrior.
T3 - 2f, 2s.
T4 - 4f, 4s. Road complete, begin mine.
T5 - 6f, 6s.
T6 - 8f, 8s.
T7 - 10f, warrior complete. Another.
T8 - 12f, 2s.
T9 - 14f, 4s.
T10 - 16f, 7s. Mine complete. Worker moves to next bonus grass (3).
T11 - 18f, warrior complete. One more. Worker mines.
T12 - Size 2, 4s. Border expansion.
T13 - 2f, 8s.
T14 - 4f, warrior complete. Begin granary.

I hate wasting shields, though, so I might actually build a spearman instead of the 3rd warrior. Completes on T16.

Of course, when I play my own SP games, I don't jot this stuff down this way. I'd probably order the worker to mine first, forgetting that this would not help speed warrior building, and would cost me commerce.

HMM, looks like there is a river to the east. I can barely see it. Another possible opening move is to go east twice (66) and build on the hill. The worker moves 6, and begins chop.

T1 - move
T2 - move again, worker begins chop.
T3 - Constantinople founded.
T4 - dunno, depends on what tiles can be worked.
...
T6 - chop complete + 10 shields. So a warrior build from the start would be bad. Probably a spearman, then, eh?

Steven,

The smilies are part of a graphics mod that puts smilies on luxury tiles - which means he's got two luxuries inside the capitol radius. Good, because the only bonus food tile he's got is useless for a while (can't get irrigation to it, at least not w/o a lot of work).

-Arrian

[aoerana]

I would move my worker south then make a decision.

[Shogun Gunner]

Originally posted by aoerana
I would move my worker south then make a decision.

I do that a lot too...but I'm wondering about the "move the settler or plant the city immediately" debate. Mathematically, it makes sense to plant the city on the first turn, no matter what?

[aoerana]

Mathematically, it makes sense to plant the city on the first turn, no matter what?

No, each map will give different results mathematically. Just look at Arrians post. A warrior in 6 turns after a move or a warrior in 7 turns without a move. You have to look at all factors. Moving the worker/scout first gives you less unknowns, which imo is infinitly better.

[Arrian]

W/O moving:

T1: build city, start warrior. worker moves 3, to bonus grass.
T2: 2f, 2s. Begin road.
T3: 4f, 4s.
T4: 6f, 6s.
T5: 8f, 8s. Road complete, begin mine.
T6: 10f, warrior complete. Another.
T7: 12f, 2s.
T8: 14f, 4s.
T9: 16f, 6s.
T10: 18f, 8s. border expansion.
T11: Size2, warrior complete. Mine complete.

So it's warrior complete on T6 w/o moving. Moving costs you a turn of production, commerce, and of course growth. So maybe it's not a good idea. Even staying put you get 3 tiles capable of 2f/2s once developed. Moving gets you 4, which means the good effects of moving will not manifest until your city hits size4.

-Arrian

[aoerana]

So it would be an investment towards the future, for the price of one turn. Something that would be hard to calculate at this point. For me that is part of the challenge.

[Arrian]

Yup.

-Arrian

[Myrddin]

On the settle immediately or move discussion;

Surely the only no-brainers are:

Move 1 tile to get to a river (so saving the build cost of an aqueduct)

Move off a bonus resource tile (as you do not get the bonus in the city square)

[vmxa1]

I often will have the worker mine first, then road.

[justjake73]

I always try to start on a river square for bonus Commerce, then build roads on the shielded grasslands first before irrigating Plains

[steven8r]

Thanks for the info Arrian, all of it.

However, I do have 1 more question. In your first post you said,

T2 - settler founds Constantinople, WF to bonus grass, begin warrior.

What does the 'WF' mean?

Reguarding Move/Don't Move: I prefer to get coastal cities so that they have only 1 Coast tile (until they expand). This requires settlement so that the Coast is in the direction of 2,4,6,8 in relation to the city. You still get the benefits of being 'Coastal', plus you get more workable land around your city. Of course this WON'T become an issue until your city grows significantly. I'd vote for NO MOVE.

Thanks,

Steven

[vmxa1]

Maybe it is Work Finished?

[vmxa1]

Or Worker Forward

[Aeson]

Work Force (Laborer?)

---------------

The Gambler in me would move E to the river (69, maybe 66 if those are Furs. Center the Palace a bit better, get the free Aquaduct, and it's probably the fastest way to get Irrigation to that Wheat tile. As it's Monarch, the 2 wasted turns of research and slower time to your first exploring Warriors and Curraghs shouldn't hurt much. Finding any good tiles to work along the River would pay off very quickly, and otherwise it will eventually pay off, if not all that quickly.

Worker could either lead the Settler and see if 66 or 69 would be best, move 9 to improve that bonus Grassland, or head 86 and chop the Forest.

I normally don't work out build queues in advance so I tend to waste a shield or two early on due to going on hunches. Generally I'd say Warrior, Granary (with a chop 86, if any bonus food tiles), Settler. Else just get the Settler out ASAP (probably no chop), and build the second city to use the Wheat if nothing better has presented itself elsewhere. 8 of the start most likely. That would require Irrigation of 1 tile to get the water there.

A +3 food city isn't great, and it takes a bit of extra Worker turns to get to it, but it will pay off those Worker turns pretty quickly. When playing for fun, I like to build a Granary and Barracks in +3 food cities without a lot of tiles to work. Just leave them as 4 turn growth, 2 turn Warrior, 2 turn Worker. Get that city to 4 and 6 production floating at size 3 or 4.

[EnduringBlue]

I would have the worker move to check out the view from the hill, but the opening location is pretty sweet. I prefer to have my capital coastal, so it can work on great lighthouse or colossus once the fourth, sometimes the third, city is built.

and there may be iron in them thar hills, eventually, too.

I like that river to the east, but I think that location is going to be within the radius of the the second city and not the first, for me.

other than that, I'm in basic agreement on how to use the first 10 turns.

[Theseus]

Originally posted by Arrian
I'd probably move southwest (1) to the hill. The worker starts roading.

T1 - settler moves 1, worker begins road.
T2 - settler founds Constantinople, WF to bonus grass, begin warrior.
T3 - 2f, 2s.
T4 - 4f, 4s. Road complete, begin mine.
T5 - 6f, 6s.
T6 - 8f, 8s.
T7 - 10f, warrior complete. Another.
T8 - 12f, 2s.
T9 - 14f, 4s.
T10 - 16f, 7s. Mine complete. Worker moves to next bonus grass (3).
T11 - 18f, warrior complete. One more. Worker mines.
T12 - Size 2, 4s. Border expansion.
T13 - 2f, 8s.
T14 - 4f, warrior complete. Begin granary.

I hate wasting shields, though, so I might actually build a spearman instead of the 3rd warrior. Completes on T16.

Of course, when I play my own SP games, I don't jot this stuff down this way. I'd probably order the worker to mine first, forgetting that this would not help speed warrior building, and would cost me commerce.

HMM, looks like there is a river to the east. I can barely see it. Another possible opening move is to go east twice (66) and build on the hill. The worker moves 6, and begins chop.

T1 - move
T2 - move again, worker begins chop.
T3 - Constantinople founded.
T4 - dunno, depends on what tiles can be worked.
...
T6 - chop complete + 10 shields. So a warrior build from the start would be bad. Probably a spearman, then, eh?

Steven,

The smilies are part of a graphics mod that puts smilies on luxury tiles - which means he's got two luxuries inside the capitol radius. Good, because the only bonus food tile he's got is useless for a while (can't get irrigation to it, at least not w/o a lot of work).

-Arrian

Dear god, man, I wish I though like that!!

I built on the spot. Less from you later calculations, nor from other comments about the river, but rather for sea access... Byzantines, after all

[Kropotkin]

Dear god, man, I wish I though like that!!

Not even the AI thinks like that.

[Arrian]

I don't think like that in SP, T. Only in the demogames, when I got bored between turns.

Aeson's probably right about moving to the river. It's good not only for the extra trade (not from city tile, as this is a seafaring civ, but from the others) but also to better center the capital. The primary reason I dislike coastal starts (and hence am dubious about seafaring civs) is the off-center palace.

-Arrian

p.s. WF = "work force" I used to say "citizen" but being part of the American Imperialist (tm) team in the MZO C3C Demogame has exposed me to E_T and his use of WF.

[Kropotkin]

And besides, if you call them citiziens, they might get the idea that they have civil rights, as opposed to being means of production.

[Arrian]

Hah! They should just be happy I'm not whipping them to death!

-Arrian

[Dominae]

With Theseus' start, I would probably do Arrian's first queue, hoping to discover some better Food tiles for a pump city somewhere nearby. Moving toward the River is certainly good too, but it would require too much work (even for freaks like me!) to figure out if it's really worth it, and by how much.

By the way, if I did not know for a fact that those two Luxury resources were there (which normally you would not without a special graphics mod), I would probably move the Worker one tile South first, just to get a better view of the starting location. It's a gamble, but one with low cost (one lost Worker-turn) and potentially high gains (spotting of Bonus Food resource).


Dominae

[Theseus]

OK, someone else put up a starting position!

[Aeson]

Don't we get to see what's out there in your start first though?