***Oh FuK the Secret's out***

Jamski · December 30, 2003, 19:39

I found out today that the Hive has a secret forum, where everything is actually decided. The only members are Kody, Voltaire, HongHu and Micha. Noone else's opinion matters squat, so we may as well all leave the Hive. I have this confirmed from Kody and Voltaire, and have told them either they close it, or I make it public. This thread is copied in both the private and public forums. If the private forum is not either closed or opened to ALL members, then I sall be taking drastic action.

-Jam

Voltaire · December 30, 2003, 19:42

...

Jamski · December 30, 2003, 19:48

See - no denial.

Our opinons are worthless.

-Jam

Frankychan · December 30, 2003, 20:43

Comrade Jamski,

While may not have the weight behind what I'm about to say due to my extended absence, please consider this.

Please try to consider that the "secret forum" was created due to the influx of Hive members that are considered "inactive". That forum could be the Hive's protection against spies and/or bugs by other factions. My only concern about said forum is that they are making policies and not even considering other active members opinions on them.

Although some of us (myself being number 1) don't necessarily contribute that much to the productivity of the Hive, I would like it (and would like to think) that when these members make policies, they at least see the rest of our concerns and try to do the best they can.

I guess that's all I have to say. I really want to see the Hive win this and want the "community" that is the spirit of the what the Human Hive represents. It might sound lame, but that's how I feel........so, that's it.

Jamski · December 30, 2003, 20:46

Did you even know this existed? Do you think it's right that they make desisions that we know nothing of? How are them members chosen?

It STINKS, and it needs to be blown wide open.

-Jam

Kody · December 30, 2003, 21:21

Frankychan,

I would stop reading the thread here if I felt the opinions of the hive community didn't matter.

No matter how frustrating it has been dealing with the larger group of hive members, I still do my best to bring them into the decision making. You see the smaller the group the easier it is to make decisions. Certain things like where to send a colony pod will only be brought up here if someone is actually interested in having a say. If someone continues to have a interest bringing up issues himself/herself and shows sound reasoning with what they are doing. Obviously they can be involved in the minor detail discussions. However, for the majority it was found that holding discussions on many minor details made their eyes glaze over. So instead only major issues are brought up publically.

Also certain diplomatic decisions and personal misgivings about certain alliances have been often brought up on MSN/email/private forum. Why? Because those aren't official stances, and if an infiltrator reads it they may get the wrong impression. Ironically we have no official secrets that aren't already in this forum. We tried, for about 1 week then realised it wouldn't work.

Jamski · December 30, 2003, 21:26

My main beef is that the secret forum is SECRET, and closed. Say one day I was passionatly interested in the movements of every crawler. There's nothing I can do about it.

Hell, we didn't even know about it. How much does THAT suck? Why not have a thread that we all agree stays SERIOUS - that way the info is there for everyone.

-Jam

Frankychan · December 30, 2003, 22:33

Thanks comrades on both of your inputs. I, personally, do not mind if there is a "private" forum. If you want to know something, just ask and I'm betting that those members would be more than willing to let you know.

I agree that minor detail stuff does make my eye's glaze over (

) and I'm not that technical savvy so it's all good with me. Things like making a certain base have one less worker to increase blahblahblah don't really concern me. Things that concern me is the overall strength of the Hive and our diplomatic relations with other faction members.

......on a side note, every question I've asked has been answered very thoroughly and thoughtfully. Thanks.

Octavian X · December 30, 2003, 22:42

The world must be coming to an end, because I'm tempted to listen to and agree with Jamski. *gasp*

I found out about this in a little diplomacy discussion a few nights ago, but was too tired to care.

Still, I would've appreciated it if regular posters were informed by the Council of Four, rather than by Jamski's ranting.

But now, I do fully agree with Jamski. Even if the rest of the citizenry don't comment that much, it still gives no right for an elite to seperate itself from the rest of the Hive. For the love of GooglieGod, this is a democracy game, where decisions are made by the community. Unfortunately, some members community are not SMAC experts, nor do we have 13 million hours a day to contribute to the Hive. That gives no one the right to hide itself from the majority.

If this 'elietist minority' would post polls on subjects, sponser and foster discussions in THIS forum, and open itself to the rest of the Hive, I'm sure you wouldn't see the levels of apathy you see now. However, when you move the decision making away from everyone else, it encourages this feeling that someone else is doing the work for us.

Basically, if Voltaire, Kody, HongHu, and Micha were holding these discussions in THIS forum, the rest might be more encouraged to add in.

If this secret forum isn't closed soon, I will seriously consider leaving the Hive for good.

Jamski · December 30, 2003, 22:52

Quote:

The world must be coming to an end, because I'm tempted to listen to and agree with Jamski. *gasp*

Hey, it can happen to the best of us

Quote:

For the love of GooglieGod, this is a democracy game, where decisions are made by the community.

Yes, YES, YES, YES, YES, YES, YES, YES!,

Quote:

Basically, if Voltaire, Kody, HongHu, and Micha were holding these discussions in THIS forum, the rest might be more encouraged to add in.

If this secret forum isn't closed soon, I will seriously consider leaving the Hive for good.

Exactly what I said when I found out. Let's see some response on this closing issue pretty soon. I think our member count has gone down one today anyway.

-Jam

Kody · December 31, 2003, 00:28

You given me the choice of either doing things the old way or becoming a dictator forcing the issue and having people resign.

I've tried doing things in the old way and was very close to suffering a nervous breakdown from the pressure I was put under. Quite simply I had a play a complicated diplomatic dance within the faction so a decision could be made on every little issue. I had to constantly explain and re-explain issues because people kept coming up with incorrect points. When I didn't have a clue about an issue and asked a question in the apolyton forum, instead of getting some idea I got confused. During the last few months before I went into semi-retirement I was forced to turn to the drones for advice. Finally when I exerted too much pressure correcting things all discussion stopped even from those that knew enough to give good input.

The private forum has fixed those issues as the people in it know enough or self motivated enough that I don't have to correct other people's arguments. When I need to raise an issue I don't have a clue about, I actually get answers that don't confuse me.

I hate to say this, but if everyone in this forum understood half of what they needed to understand then true democracy would work. Don't say that you're not getting told the information, because you have been repeatively. There's very little that doesn't get to this forum too.

The main issues in the secret forum that haven't reached beyond it have been private "opinions" on the cycon relations (All official communication have all been cross posted over multiple forums). For example I would state some of my fears and hopes that I would be too embarrassed to put in the public forum. Mainly, because if posted here it would be turned against me as my official position since some of the people here don't think long enough to realise it's just me worrying.

Division of work load. Saying "Okay this needs to be done saying can you please do this." "I'm really stressed right now please can you take over this issue" "Sorry I did it when I said you should do that job" "I need to go on holidays, just warning you guys so someone else can do that job". We really only want reliable people to pick up slack, experience has shown that if in the public forum if a job is advertised and someone takes it up. It rarely gets done. So for someone to make it into the private forum they need to show they're able to do what they said they would do. Otherwise that work will immediately fall back onto the lap of people that really don't want it.

Then we have game related stuff like "No no the crawler should have gone to that square, because we needed the +2 nuts there", "I think we can slam the probe in if we move along this route, I'll check with buster for the university infiltration" "Kody you made a mistake with placing a worker on a forest instead of a forest river." "Yeah sorry no simulator anymore". If placed in the public forum when I give criticism of things it seems more like a personal attack to the person it's directed at. Also the mistake I made would probably be taunted and made into a joke.

I hoped that your happy Jamski because neither option is really going to work. Even if I wanted to I can't be a dictator, but if I continue along this current path I will become one. As a dictator I won't be able to draw upon the rest of the hive for decisions, they just won't expect me to actually care. Making decisions by myself would just weigh too heavily on my heart.

Every decision I have made myself so far has been carefully weighed from what I understand from speaking to and reading all your posts. As a dictator I won't be able to figure out what exactly people actually want. You see I can't always use the actual opinions on what to do from people if there's some flaw in the information they're working off. I look instead at the reason why people want to do what they've stated. I look at what reactions people have to certain ideas or situations brought up. From that I make decisions. Those kinds of things are very difficult to find out if I'm not a equal in other people's eyes.

The decisions I've made are quite many and usually minor. They're to do with the tone a diplomatic message should take. Whether to bring up the possibility of a trade. What value each of the trade items in a trade are worth to the hive. Whether to reassure another faction or to let the diplomatic situation happen by itself. Whether to build more crawlers or formers.

So far the only two major decision I have made are the hidden forum, and to exert pressure holding the hive to honest dealings with other factions. All others major decisions that often seem to have come from me have been channelled through the hive or through voltaire.

As for actual leaders. So far every capable leader will not be accepted (due to being new) or doesn't want the job.

Yes unofficially I'm the main decision maker of this faction, but I don't want this job. I'm tried of SMAX, as I've looked too deeply at it and it's removed all the fun. The diplomacy, and running the hive is a headache that chews up my time as you wouldn't believe. The only thing keeping me here is a twisted sense of duty and a promise I made to a friend.

If you really dislike the way I'm running things or the decisions that I make then step up and run the faction. Make a government system that actually works then I'll find peace at last, I really want to quit and the day I came back I still wanted to quit.

The cycon issue that has been the recent main discussion was brought up before in the public forum 3 times. Each time I've tried to force a decision without actually taking complete control. First time was way back in July. No decision was made as everyone thought it was too early. Second time back in October, again everyone decided to wait and see. This is the third time and I don't see any decision in sight unless someone takes the initiative.

So far all the only other people that have stepped forward and tried to gather support are people interested in glory and power. Not in running this faction. They see it as a luxury not a job, and when I left the power vacuum a month ago it turned the perks got used, but the mundane issues got ignored.

Where we shall go from here I don't know, but if there is a return to the old system I won't be able to run it. If it becomes a dictatorship I won't be able to run it either.

Octavian X · December 31, 2003, 03:13

Kody, you do have a point. I admire your dedication, and willingness to serve the Hive.

Running away from explaning things to newbies isn't an answer, though. I urge you to again post your turn logs in this forum, along with 'plain english' explanations of what you did and why. New team members will read these logs, and hopefully become better SMAC players for it, educating the citizenry and creating better-informed Hiverians who can help out after this informal education. Call it an apprenticeship.

If misinformed, or simply wrong, arguments bother you, it won't help to avoid them althogether. By running away to those who already understand, you're helping to breed this ignorance among people. If an honest effort was truly made to better inform people was made, this problem could be even avoided entirely - a simple, single thread summing up all our stances on everything would be a great help.

You're dictator concerns are warranted as well. I'd recommend just stepping back (again). Don't try to make a decision for anyone - post a poll, and use that to take a course of action. My past democracy game experience has taught me, if all else fails, post a poll. Polls are the best was to 'force' a decision by the people. Those too shy to comment will vote, anyway. People will voice their opinions based on the option they chose. The results will be much more definite compared to just a regular discussion.

There's a correct path to follow, and that path doesn't involve a seperate forum.

Snowflake · December 31, 2003, 04:30

I would like to say that I appreciate all the discussions. Comrade Frankychan has shown excellent grasp and understanding of the game and the situation. I really appreciated your posts. Comrade Oct has been trying his hardest to work for the team too and you have made many good suggestions. The only reason that you have not been invited to the shaddow forum is because you had said that you were busy at moderating MZO civIII demo games and we belived that you will not be able to be more involved than you currently have.

Voltaire · December 31, 2003, 19:45

I am not going to respond to you in the public copy thread of this Jamski, nor do I think any other Hiver should, you have every right to bring up any grievance you have against this government and its administration before the People, but you have no right to do it before the entirety of Planet.

Let me say this out so that all may head, I could care less if all the other factions agreed with you that this is a “democracy”-game and that everything should be done in the Hive forums. What they said does not matter, we are the Hive and we will do things our way for one. The primary responsibility of this government, of all members of the Hive, is not to some notion of democracy which you cling to but hardly believe in, but to the Hive itself. If a majority decision is wrong, we must correct it, I will not allow the Hive to suffer at the hands of the majority who knows not what they do.

Furthermore let this be said so that it is clear what I think, to the many of you who do not contribute to the Hive, to the many of you who care not to carry out a small task when it has been requested of you since Kody cannot do everything himself, I do not even consider that you should have a say in the matter. Who are you to complain about what the “elite” are doing? Do you have some glorified image of us sitting around a table eating caviar laughing and making decisions about the Hive arbitrarily? Making a decision is difficult, much discussion and time goes into it. Playing the turn is even more difficult, it consumes much time which would quite frankly be spent on better things. You think being part of the “elite” is fun, I would beg you to challenge that misconception, you want to be part of the “elite”, fine by all means everyone can be admitted if they will just actually care to do some work. Until then you have no right to complain.

Jamski if you so loved democracy where were you before as Deputy Chairman defending it to the death as you so do now? We have never had a democracy, the illusion of it perhaps, but never a democracy, most of our discussion instead of taking place on forum took place over MSN, the only thing that has changed is the medium of the discussion, not the fact that most of it does not take place before public eyes, but because we wish to hide anything, but because the public does not discuss anything relevant most of the time, those people who care and have something to contribute find a way to do it, as it the case of Frankychan and Mead. If you have something to say it, say it, it will be heard I assure you.

But Jamski, you are in this because you want to be part of the elite, you want to join this supposed “elite” of ours. Fine, if you prove yourself by doing work you will be welcomed with open arms, but you will not gain anything by trying to bully us into letting you in. You resent the fact that you’re no longer Deputy Chairman, and I regret the fact that I did not replace you long ago with someone worth of the post, I offered it to HongHu many times but she declined even though she was more the qualified for the job.

I rant, but I had to get that off of my chest. Accuse us of whatever you will, elitism and whatnot I do not care, but ask yourselves what have you done for the Hive? And if you say nothing, but because you have had no opportunity, well then I do not think there is much to discuss for clearly you have. The Hive works on a principle of meritocracy, people are promoted by merit, so if you want a job you damn well better do it.

Vev · December 31, 2003, 22:31

I have to agree the new forum sounds drearily dull for people to spam. Reading it won't be too much fun either. I'm not too fussed in missing out. I don't have the time to help out much.

But I can still contribute to the Hive and that is why I've offered myself as a 'Ask-me-if-you-need-my-help Advisor' in the field of tactical combat resolution. For those who have seen my thread in the General/Help forum, they would know how seriously I take probabilistic calculations and statistical analysis. But since there isn't use for me and no one else is interested in solving a strange mystery, I see no need to work on it at the moment.

To give you guys an idea what I have created, I have set up a scenario with 500 units vs 500 units to give a rough estimate of the combat outcomes. Those units can have their strengths adjusted through upgrading and if required, Alphax.txt editation to meet the desired value.

Enigma_Nova · January 1, 2004, 11:38

Great self-promote VeV. :b
Well my comment is over in the Main forum. I'll quote it here (lest I make a one-line post attacking VeV)

WRONG. I'm a member (just haven't posted yet)

Oh COME ON Jamski. Anyone with the desire and ability to play worth a damn for The Hive is in that forum.
Maybe if you spent less time skimming posts and overthrowing the government and more time thinking about the game, you might actually have a shot at being in the 31337_PH0R4M

FYI anyone who wants their opinion to matter will stay in the hive. What are you? Blackmailing? Or are you just a whining quitter?
Plus anyone whose opinion -is- worth a damn (and wants their opinion to be worth a damn) is going to that 31337 forum.

YOUR opinion isn't worth a damn because you can't be bothered to be a good player, as it was -YOU- that said playing SMAX with a calculator was not your idea of fun.
Well what for some of us, for whom that idea -is- fun?
Those that like to achieve, and conquer, as opposed to half-heartedly pushing formers onto moist squares and farming them?

What for those of us that want a home of tactics, away from the

?
The Hive was full of

so we set up a forum where we could actually discuss things.
It's quite alright to divide the

from the

in my opinion, being an Elitist that I am.
So go the 31337 Forum.

IMO leave hive private forum for the

and the 31337 forum for the strategy. Each to their own - the message is clear.
I can't understand why people would be angry at not being upperclass? Do you expect your life and value handed to you on a silver platter?

The current system works fine as it is. Thank you for arousing dissent amongst the current Hive populous.

Jamski · January 1, 2004, 13:47

Quote:

Oh COME ON Jamski. Anyone with the desire and ability to play worth a damn for The Hive is in that forum.

I have desire.
I have ability.
I am not in that forum.

There seems to be a small flaw in your logic, Enigma_Nova.

Anyway, I seek not to be inducted into a a private enclave, but to bring the private enclave back to the people. We are witnessing exactly what happened after the Communist revolution in Russia. The people are slowly betrayed, and excluded, while all talk about democracy and equality.

Bah. Whay am I even typing this?

-Jam

Mead · January 1, 2004, 16:18

Because the Flaming has appeared in Several Threads, I will be posting this in several Threads. Please direct any and all responses to the Reconciliation Thread.

Both Enigma_Nova and Jamski are from what I see active participants in the Hive.
Both are Hive members who I value and respect.

Enigma_Nova has taken on a very active role in the planning and analysis of the Hive. I understand that E_N has even become a turn player in the very short time E_N has been a member and played well.

Jamski has also been a very active member of the Hive and has taken part in many discussions on Hiverian strategy. Jamski has also played an important part in the Hive Game. Currently Jamski feels excluded.

Recent posts from both E_N and Jamski worry me. These are a sample of the quotes:

First one from E_N directed at Jamski posted in the open to all ACDG Forum ###Oh F** the secret's out### (not just the internal Hive forum).

BEGIN QUOTE:

quote:The only members are Kody, Voltaire, HongHu and Micha.

WRONG. I'm a member (just haven't posted yet)

Oh COME ON Jamski. Anyone with the desire and ability to play worth a damn for The Hive is in that forum.
Maybe if you spent less time skimming posts and overthrowing the government and more time thinking about the game, you might actually have a shot at being in the 31337_PH0R4M
quote:Noone else's opinion matters squat, so we may as well all leave the Hive.

FYI anyone who wants their opinion to matter will stay in the hive. What are you? Blackmailing? Or are you just a whining quitter?
Plus anyone whose opinion -is- worth a damn (and wants their opinion to be worth a damn) is going to that 31337 forum.

YOUR opinion isn't worth a damn because you can't be bothered to be a good player, as it was -YOU- that said playing SMAX with a calculator was not your idea of fun.
Well what for some of us, for whom that idea -is- fun?
Those that like to achieve, and conquer, as opposed to half-heartedly pushing formers onto moist squares and farming them?

What for those of us that want a home of tactics, away from the ?
The Hive was full of so we set up a forum where we could actually discuss things.
It's quite alright to divide the from the in my opinion, being an Elitist that I am.
So go the 31337 Forum.

IMO leave hive private forum for the and the 31337 forum for the strategy. Each to their own - the message is clear.
I can't understand why people would be angry at not being upperclass? Do you expect your life and value handed to you on a silver platter?

The current system works fine as it is. Thank you for arousing dissent amongst the current Hive populous.

END QUOTE

My comments:
First, E_N I understand that you wanted to respond to Jamski in the same open forum he started, but even though Jamski should not have posted his internal complaints beyond the internal Hive Forums, you should not respond in the public forums.

Second, and of greater concern to me, I feel you insult all Hive members who were not a part of the inner (31337? What is that?) forum. I do not think that was your intent and more strongly feel that it is not the intent of Kody, Voltaire, Micha, Hong Hu, or other members of the inner forum. You call us, non-inner forum members lower class [?I can't understand why people would be angry at not being upperclass.?] E_N, please remember that the Glorious Hive does not have Classes.

I am a little disappointed to see the inner-forum go, even though I was not part of it, because I think it think served a useful purpose. There may come a time when sensitive discussions will need to be discussed without the participants fearing that their thoughts will be ridiculed, or worse leaked to other factions. Yes, I have read about concerns regarding moles and there may be some truth to it. Although I agree that an internal limited access forum was proper, all Hiverians should have known the existence of it, even if they did not have access to it.

BEGIN SECOND E_N QUOTE, posted in Internal Hive Forums

I arrived at 2149 and I'm already in the Shadow.
All you need is competency and a will to participate deeply.

Frankychan lacks the will to participate deeply
Jamski just lacks competency.
END SECOND E_N QUOTE

My comments:
I am assuming that these are your personal opinions and not that of those of the Hive.

Jamski has made a number of posts recently that have alleged improper actions of members of the Hive. He started a thread in a non-internal Hive forum to air Hive problems before non-Hive members. The below post is the one that concerns me the most.
BEGIN JAMSKI QUOTE (in Chat regarding shaddow, CC relationship and others, thankfully, on the Internal Hive Forums)
quote:All you need is competency and a will to participate deeply.

Poppycock. You just need to suck Voltaire's penis.
quote:Frankychan lacks the will to participate deeply

Or maybe he just lacks time. Maybe he doesn't have SMAX, and can't see the turns. Maybe he does have the will, but is excluded. In any case, his opinion is more valuable in that it is rarely given. Put him in the "Elite Forum"
quote:Jamski just lacks competency.

Have you ever seen one of my games? I am really quite competent. I am not, however, a mad counter of every last mineral, nor do I always take 15 hours per turn to ensure I take the optimum choice. SMAC is a game, and one should play it. I realise that for some winning easily is not enough (as I always do, playing instictively) but only winning perfectly will suffice. Oh well.

-Jam
END JAMSKI QUOTE

My comments:
Jamski, I understand that you are angry and being defensive, but you language and insults risk drawing the attention of the Moderators for your comments. Further than that you behave in a manner that risks to diminish your standing within the Hiverian community.

I admonish both of you.

Enigma_Nova
Jamski is a valued Hive player who should not be excluded from participation in this game. Also, we the non-inner forum members are not second-class citizens and should never thought of as such. This is the Hive not Morgan Enterprises. I would hope for a sincere clarification from you retracting the suggestion that there are different classes in the Hive.

Jamski
Your language to us, in particular, your allegation of what was required to gain access to the inner forum is inexcusable. I would hope for a sincere apology to all of us for the your statement. I value your inputs to the game and appreciate now knowing that there was an internal forum, but wish you to be more civil in your opposition.

To all:
I believe that this is an internal Hive matter that should be resolved within the Hive and should not draw attention of other factions nor the Moderators. Although I considered ignoring these posts in the hopes that it would all just go away, I feel that if we do not admonish the behavior, the posts will get worse.

Mead

PS

Mead is happy to see the involvement and passions aroused by the recent game events, but is saddened but the recent incivility he has seen within the Hive. He hopes the disturbing downward trend ceases and all come to their senses as Comrades in Arms.

Vev · January 1, 2004, 16:54

Well we seem to be at another crucible - again.

We may be stronger for it or weaker. Heck we each have the power to help unmake the game, but there is no joy from that. There was something else I was to say but I've forgotten it ...

Snowflake · January 1, 2004, 18:49

I would like to apologize to all the Hive team players for anything inappropriate said by any of the shaddow ministry members. The shaddow ministry is created and maintained by Kody and I. I believe Kody will agree with me that we will be responsible for it. If anybody was to take any blames, it will be the two of us. We will agree to accept any judgement from the Hive team. I will be happy to let everybody who's interested know how each and every shaddow members were chosen and who we were planning to invite if the shaddow was to continue (before the Hive forum became active again because of Jamksi's effort).

In addition, everybody is entitled to his own opinion, but I (together with Kody) would like to researve the right to explain the purpose of the shaddow ministry.

I believe both Jamski and Enigma as well as others are all trying to help with the team. So I agree with Mead and others, we should try refraining from flaming others and try to work with other cooperatively. With so much active energy we have right now with the team, I am confident that we can have an active forum and a successful team.

Octavian X · January 2, 2004, 01:21

After further thought about the entire situation, I wish to apoligize as well, for my own knee-jerk reaction. After further explanations of the purpose of this ministry, I am willing to accept the fact that it's creation was necessary at the time.

However, I still angry at the fact that the creation and purpose of this ministry was not disclosed to the citizens of the Hive when it was created. Had we been informed of the existance of this ministry, it's mission, and organization in the first place, this entire mess would've been avoided.

Keeping things hidden from rival factions is fine; keeping things hidden from your own action will never result in anything good.

Octavian X · January 2, 2004, 02:22

And, on a second thought...

I believe this situation is yet another sign that we really must reform the way the Hive is run. It surely wouldn't kill us to make some democratic reforms. I think it's entirely possible for us to create a democratic government with this 'shadow ministry' included as a legitimate branch of a democratic government.

Voltaire · January 2, 2004, 02:47

Quote:

Keeping things hidden from rival factions is fine; keeping things hidden from your own action will never result in anything good.

“To the rulers of the state then, if to any, it belongs of right to use falsehood, to deceive either enemies or their own citizens, for the good of the state: and no one else may meddle with this privilege.”--Plato

Kody · January 2, 2004, 03:31

You know the blowing open of the shadow forum, instead of increasing democracy decreases it. Since the old system that everyone thought of as democratic was more of a dictatorship since nobody contributed.

Sure activity will jump now, but things will become boring after a week or two and the people that get bored drag the others down with them. I've seen it happen before.

With the shadow ministry people interested in contributing mingle more with people interested. So it helps keep activity alive.

Snowflake · January 2, 2004, 03:37

The reason I wanted to keep it from being exposed to the public is because it is supposed to be a shaddow ministry. The shaddow is meant to stay in the dark. Do we know where the shaddow ministry of the UK or US is and who are in? Once it is exposed its use gets to be limited greatly. And everybody would come in for a visit, looking around. How nice the building is, how big the furnitures are. It is supposed to be used for work, not to let people tour and have fun in it.

It is planned when the Hive forum became reactivated and the shaddow ministry completed its purpose of filling in the gap and carrying the team accross the river, then its existence will be announced to the team. And I was hoping that the people will thank us for doing the work and not letting the team die when they were busy with something else. Well I guess it has not turned out the way I hoped. But that's ok. Ever since I started working for the team I have never thought of asking anything in return.

Kody · January 2, 2004, 03:45

I've figured out what I want in return.

To be able to leave and face no recrimination for abandoning my team. Not having to worry that the Drone pact that I poured so many promises into being betrayed. To know that after I leave the hive will stay on track and not be a source of laughter for other factions.

When I left earlier all of those things didn't happen.

Jamski · January 2, 2004, 08:54

Quote:

Your language to us, in particular, your allegation of what was required to gain access to the inner forum is inexcusable. I would hope for a sincere apology to all of us for the your statement. I value your inputs to the game and appreciate now knowing that there was an internal forum, but wish you to be more civil in your opposition.

Sorry, I was MAD. Not like me to use strong language.

Anyway... I'm not so ANGRY today. At least everyone knows now that they are puppets, and if my outbursts have spoiled the illusion of the puppet show, then truth is sometimes less entertaining than reality. Umm, does that sentence mean anything?

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It is planned when the Hive forum became reactivated and the shaddow ministry completed its purpose of filling in the gap and carrying the team accross the river, then its existence will be announced to the team. And I was hoping that the people will thank us for doing the work and not letting the team die when they were busy with something else. Well I guess it has not turned out the way I hoped. But that's ok. Ever since I started working for the team I have never thought of asking anything in return.

It is still unclear why its creation was never annouced of discussed. Was it just a need to feel special?

Also, if the Hive forum was dead, why was a new secret forum needed? Surely the secret forum could have discussed in this forum, since noone else was posting here (as you claim) Sorry, HongHu, this is nothing against YOU, but I have heard no good reason for having a secret forum a secret.

But its being closed now, yes? Or do I have to take my drastic action?

-Jam

Snowflake · January 3, 2004, 00:23

Ok. Guess I was still not clear enough. It was an emergency procedure. The hive being "dead" means nobody was working (compare to nobody posting). The forum was created by Kody and I, the two people who feel that it was their duty to carry this team forward, even when everybody else doesn't seem to care, but with their limited time and energy, they felt that they cannot offord to spend 90% of their time on trying to get people work, trying to explain why some suggestions from people who do not bother to follow the game were wront, and hope to strimline the working process so that they are actually able to carry the great duty that they were so brave to take on. It was planned that each of them will make decisions on minor details such as worker allocations, crawler allocations and former allocations without having to consulting the other. Again this is so that they would be able to actually do all the work that needs to be done. Please remember other than the turn itself, there are also diplomatic relations to be taken care of, and they try to encorporate long term planning into the game so that the turn playing is not really a very simple matter.

During the time they have actually done more that they originally planned, that is they have not had the heart to leave the others in the team. So they have kept the forum current with all the relavent information, and they have communicated with anybody who has shown various degrees of interest of the game. What make them feel gratified is that not only the Chairman has been giving them the maximum support personally from the very beginning, their efforts have also been encouraged by growing participation from the players. Old players like Comrade Micha, Vander and Oct have been sharing the work load for them, and new members such as dacole, Enigma and Mead has started to learn about the game and started to be involved in the game deeper and deeper.

They have spended more than ten times of their time and energy than they can actually afford, simply trying to foster this growing participation. Every potential member has been contacted, through PMs, MSN chats or other means, first without the mentioning of the shaddow and simply encouraging them to participate and take on tasks, and when the member showed his real interest and capability, they are gradually informed about the existence of the shaddow ministry and accepted into it.

The reason that the shaddow ministry is not publically announced, is exactly to avoid a situation like what we have now. That people upon knowing it, demanding their "rights" to be included, without remembering their "reponsibilities" and "duties" to the team.

If this makes these people who are actually working "special", then why not? Yes I would say they ARE special. For they are willing to contribute part of their life for the team. They give instead of ask, work instead of demand.

The shaddow ministry is currently temporarily closed. Waiting for the team to make the final decision. Another reason that this forum may be helpful is that it provides certain shielding from potential infiltration from other factions. Therefore the team may want to investigate into this issue and make a collective decision regarding whether it should be reactivated. Also, if the team is to die again, I would hope there will be another two or three players who are willing to sacrifice their life for others, and reactivate the shaddow ministry to carry on what cannot be accomplished through the official government.

Dear Comrade Jamski, I hope you have not skimmed my post this time. Please think about what your "drastic action" is going to be. Is it simply your method of revenge for not being included? Is it going to harm the team that you and Voltaire created and you have loved? Is it going to hassle you for the rest of your life?

The shaddow ministry will not be closed because of your "threat". In fact your "threat" will almost for sure have the exact opposite effect. However, we are more mature and rational than that. Please remember, anger and threat will not solve anything, and will not bring you anywhere you'd like to be.

Octavian X · January 3, 2004, 06:42

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The shaddow ministry is currently temporarily closed. Waiting for the team to make the final decision.

May I, then, propose a referendum on the subject? A simple yes/no poll is all we really need...

Enigma_Nova · January 3, 2004, 08:57

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Originally posted by HongHu
I believe both Jamski and Enigma as well as others are all trying to help with the team.

I'm helping the team, as I perceive the 'team', and as I understand 'help'.
There's an important distinction in that we all have differing views on what the Hive is, and what would constitute an improvement.

I doubt your optimism, HongHu. Intra-factional strife is, in my opinion, an excellent way to find out who's got the guts to proceed.
As for teamwork? I always was a lone wolf. Sooner forsake you and your team then have my own agenda subservient to yours.