Reconciliation Thread

Mead · December 30, 2003, 20:15

Jamski and Voltaire -

What are you guys doing?

Your internal fighting might be amusing but for the timing.

The decisions we make now will very likely lead to our survival of us as a viable faction or our rapid descent and elimination.

Yes, we need to debate what we are going to do.

But, we need to be respectful, rational, and above all United in the defense of the Hive.

As I, a new member, understand that there are two major decisions that need to be made very soon.

1. What side we enter in the CyCon/Pirate war.

2. What do we do about the Drones who just became Governor, are pretty big and getting bigger, and are sharing the same landmass as us? (BTW, they are also getting some very potent tech this turn, which if they do not share with us we are in some serious trouble).

Let us debate what we are going to do?

We need to discuss what CyCon and Pirates can offer us. And how to induce them to offer us what we want.

We need to discuss the dangers and opportunities that are facing us.

We need to discuss a strategy.

Our debate should not be focused on who we support in the Pirate/CyCon war, rather our debate should be focused on seeing and minimizing the dangers and sensing and gaining the opportunities.

Jamski is not important, Voltaire is not important, I am not important. The debate is important. The future of the Hive is essential.

Mead

P.S.

How much time do we have to decide on the war?

Jamski · December 30, 2003, 20:21

We have probably 24-48 hours. I suppose we COULD hold the turn a bit, in this instance.

Ok... one moment... need to think...

-Jam

Voltaire · December 30, 2003, 20:27

Comrade Mean I commend you on your activity and participation in this discussion and debate. We need more active members such as yourself to partake in the government of the Human Hive.

You should be aware that Comrade Kody, our head administration responsible for the glory of the Human Hive itself, sees our chances of downfall or decline as infinitesimal, and that this decision in his eyes is not that crucial. Nevertheless it must be made, even if it is not of vital importance to the Human Hive itself, we need to come to a consensus.

We do not even know if we’re entering the CyCon-PEACE War, in fact I see no reason why we need to get involved and sacrifice our resources and the lives of our soldiers and citizens in a foreign conflict. We have no obligation to either side to join the war. We have not promised them that we will assist them if they go to war.

As for the Drones, we are in permipact with this, till the end (or so we hope). Regardless of their power our relationship with the Drones has been a long and fruitful one, we have proven our loyalty to them, and they theirs to us. I think it save to assume that they will not betray the permipact for the time being.

You are very correct in stating that if we do join this war we need to benefit form it. Not only as a result of the conquest which we will surely gain, but more importantly the factions who want us to join their side should offer us something in return for our troubles.

Comrade Kody’s confident that we face no great danger, though at this time we are not ready to partake in war and should concentrate on other endeavors such as research.

-Chairman Voltaire

Jamski · December 30, 2003, 20:35

We already ARE involved. The current situation is that the CyCon is at war with us and the Pirates. We have a pact with the Pirates. That's pretty involved.

-Jam

Jamski · December 30, 2003, 20:37

Also, I share Mead's misgivings about the Drones. They are big, and getting bigger. What happens when we reach the point where we are just the Drones toy?

-Jam

Kody · December 30, 2003, 21:10

Quote:

sees our chances of downfall or decline as infinitesimal

No our chances of downfall or decline isn't really tied up with diplomancy with of the peace or the cycon anymore. Mainly it's tied up with the drones, and how well we run our turns.

Jamski · December 30, 2003, 21:12

We're still stuffed if the Pirates and Uni and Roze all tried to invade at once. We have no millitary at all.

-Jam

Octavian X · December 30, 2003, 22:51

There's the solution: build a military.

Either way, I will state that I am dissatisfied with Kody's stance. It's still very possible that one of the other factions, Drones included, are building up a huge force to wipe us out in one sweep while we're feeling cocky about ourselves. Readiness is essential for all the Hive.

Jamski · December 30, 2003, 22:55

I'm glad to see my paranoia is spreading. I must say the Hive is looking like a lot of scout patrols at the moment. Anyone with impact weapons could eliminate us before we knew what was going on.

-Jam

Vev · December 31, 2003, 22:46

Quote:

Originally posted by Voltaire
Comrade Mean I ...

-Chairman Voltaire

*psst* You may wish to reword that ...

Kody · December 31, 2003, 23:29

We have infiltration of every human faction now, either through probe or pact.

Drones have promised us +3 armor next turn. This was what I've been waiting for, and purposefully reduced the number of scout patrols we built so we could build more +3 armor defenders. The first of these will probably come online in turn 2153.

So far the university has less defences than we do currently.

Cycon while having a good attack force, still need to continue building war units if they are to defeat the peace. They don't have enough weapons to make a big enough dent in the hive once we get the +3 armor, half their weapons are crusiers (hence cannot take over any of our core bases) and travel time means we will easily be able to defend against what they currently have if they send it our way right now.

The peace looks like they're going to put up a fight, after I looked at thier infiltration data. If they had the HEC plasma armor and impact weapons available to them I think they would probably be able to throw the cycon back. However, lacking those defences it looks like the peace will lose a few of it's core bases. Whether they recover enough to beat back the cycon is unknown, but still a possibility at this early stage of the war.

Drones have built no attack troops. Although they have been building defensive units and using them for police purposes. At the moment their concentration has been focused on pop booming, and keeping drones under control. Building an army right now would be rather dumb for the drones as they will be much more powerful economically in another couple of turns.

What I'm more concerned about is making it so the cards fall our way with MMI. If we can do things right we may be able to get first dibs on cloudbase, and perhaps cyborg factory. I have a strong suspicion that if we let the drones get MMI first we can wave goodbye to cloudbase, pact or no pact. They got WP and we got second choice on SPs, so I'm hoping that we can turn the tables this time around. As long as we don't hinder the drones, or waste serious amounts of resources doing this I think the drones will understand. This means preparing the crawlers and the economy over the next couple of years, so we can take the SPs efficiently.

Mead · January 1, 2004, 01:12

Quote:

Originally posted by Kody
We have infiltration of every human faction now, either through probe or pact.

Who are we Pacted with whom we have not infiltrated?

Quote:

Originally posted by Kody

Drones have promised us +3 armor next turn. This was what I've been waiting for, and purposefully reduced the number of scout patrols we built so we could build more +3 armor defenders. The first of these will probably come online in turn 2153.

Are we supposed to get missiles as well?

Quote:

Originally posted by Kody
The peace looks like they're going to put up a fight, after I looked at thier infiltration data. If they had the HEC plasma armor and impact weapons available to them I think they would probably be able to throw the cycon back. However, lacking those defences it looks like the peace will lose a few of it's core bases. Whether they recover enough to beat back the cycon is unknown, but still a possibility at this early stage of the war.

Once we get plasma armor can we trade it them for some good tech plus, perhaps, cash? We want them to survive right? We do not want CyCon to get too powerful right?

Would trading that stuff to them tick off the Drones, or might it allow them to get some SPs that we want? Is the armor something we just do not want to share with anyone else?

***

Quote:

Originally posted by Kody
What I'm more concerned about is making it so the cards fall our way with MMI. If we can do things right we may be able to get first dibs on cloudbase, and perhaps cyborg factory. I have a strong suspicion that if we let the drones get MMI first we can wave goodbye to cloudbase, pact or no pact. They got WP and we got second choice on SPs, so I'm hoping that we can turn the tables this time around. As long as we don't hinder the drones, or waste serious amounts of resources doing this I think the drones will understand. This means preparing the crawlers and the economy over the next couple of years, so we can take the SPs efficiently.

With the number of crawlers we now have plus the ones we will make in the next few turns we should be able to get both the Cyborg Factory plus Cloudbase in the same turn, if we get the necessary tech in time.

Mead

Kody · January 1, 2004, 03:47

Quote:

Originally posted by Mead

Who are we Pacted with whom we have not infiltrated?

Are we supposed to get missiles as well?

Once we get plasma armor can we trade it them for some good tech plus, perhaps, cash? We want them to survive right? We do not want CyCon to get too powerful right?

Would trading that stuff to them tick off the Drones, or might it allow them to get some SPs that we want? Is the armor something we just do not want to share with anyone else?

***
With the number of crawlers we now have plus the ones we will make in the next few turns we should be able to get both the Cyborg Factory plus Cloudbase in the same turn, if we get the necessary tech in time.
Mead

Pacted with cycon, pirates and drones.
Infiltrated University and pirates.

The drones don't have missiles prototyped yet, so it'll be a bigger ask to get missiles. They already have plasma armor prototyped.

Trading +3 armor around may tick the drones off, not sure. We still need to finalise what our relations with the cycon are. The cycon were definiately in on what happened. The stance towards the pirates is dependant on what we decide with the cycon.

The problem is a large number of the crawlers we have currently are in use. We definiately need to keep all the crawlers on condensor farm nut bonuses that are feeding our population. Also 2 crawlers dedicated to crawling the 2 energy bonuses, also 4 crawler dedicated to crawling mineral bonuses.

That doesn't leave enough crawlers around to instant build those SPs. In addition crawlers only move 1 move per turn. That means all those crawlers would need to be drawn in from all the far reaches of our empire.

_____________________________________

New information, I ran some tests, the data angels pose a serious threat to our terraforming.

In the map editor the two ships bombarded the bases. I tried building a laser skimship and attacking. It had even odds (50%), if the ship won then the 2nd ship attacked and destoried our ship.

The other problem is the AI appears to be able to bombard 2 squares away even if they haven't revealed the those squares. There's just too many squares to protect with units. We may have to settle for losing a large portion of our terraforming at New Moscow. The possibility I can see is building 2 laser skimships and a children's creche. However, that will take a long time and all our terraforming may be gone by all that finishes.

I'll check to see if the drones are willing to build a missile trooper for us so we can get the prototype off them. If they're able then we'll be able to build two ships and hopefully take out those pesky data angel ships.

Kody · January 1, 2004, 03:58

I think I figured out something that may work will need to do additional tests though.

Just curious if anyone can come up with the same solution or a better one.

Enigma_Nova · January 1, 2004, 11:15

You mean rushing a 2-1-1 artie moving it one square up and bombarding?

EDIT: We don't have Polymorphic. Better make that a 2-1-4.

Mead · January 1, 2004, 16:20

Because the Flaming has appeared in Several Threads, I will be posting this in several Threads. Please direct any and all responses to the Reconciliation Thread.

Both Enigma_Nova and Jamski are from what I see active participants in the Hive.
Both are Hive members who I value and respect.

Enigma_Nova has taken on a very active role in the planning and analysis of the Hive. I understand that E_N has even become a turn player in the very short time E_N has been a member and played well.

Jamski has also been a very active member of the Hive and has taken part in many discussions on Hiverian strategy. Jamski has also played an important part in the Hive Game. Currently Jamski feels excluded.

Recent posts from both E_N and Jamski worry me. These are a sample of the quotes:

First one from E_N directed at Jamski posted in the open to all ACDG Forum ###Oh F** the secret's out### (not just the internal Hive forum).

BEGIN QUOTE:

quote:The only members are Kody, Voltaire, HongHu and Micha.

WRONG. I'm a member (just haven't posted yet)

Oh COME ON Jamski. Anyone with the desire and ability to play worth a damn for The Hive is in that forum.
Maybe if you spent less time skimming posts and overthrowing the government and more time thinking about the game, you might actually have a shot at being in the 31337_PH0R4M
quote:Noone else's opinion matters squat, so we may as well all leave the Hive.

FYI anyone who wants their opinion to matter will stay in the hive. What are you? Blackmailing? Or are you just a whining quitter?
Plus anyone whose opinion -is- worth a damn (and wants their opinion to be worth a damn) is going to that 31337 forum.

YOUR opinion isn't worth a damn because you can't be bothered to be a good player, as it was -YOU- that said playing SMAX with a calculator was not your idea of fun.
Well what for some of us, for whom that idea -is- fun?
Those that like to achieve, and conquer, as opposed to half-heartedly pushing formers onto moist squares and farming them?

What for those of us that want a home of tactics, away from the ?
The Hive was full of so we set up a forum where we could actually discuss things.
It's quite alright to divide the from the in my opinion, being an Elitist that I am.
So go the 31337 Forum.

IMO leave hive private forum for the and the 31337 forum for the strategy. Each to their own - the message is clear.
I can't understand why people would be angry at not being upperclass? Do you expect your life and value handed to you on a silver platter?

The current system works fine as it is. Thank you for arousing dissent amongst the current Hive populous.

END QUOTE

My comments:
First, E_N I understand that you wanted to respond to Jamski in the same open forum he started, but even though Jamski should not have posted his internal complaints beyond the internal Hive Forums, you should not respond in the public forums.

Second, and of greater concern to me, I feel you insult all Hive members who were not a part of the inner (31337? What is that?) forum. I do not think that was your intent and more strongly feel that it is not the intent of Kody, Voltaire, Micha, Hong Hu, or other members of the inner forum. You call us, non-inner forum members lower class [?I can't understand why people would be angry at not being upperclass.?] E_N, please remember that the Glorious Hive does not have Classes.

I am a little disappointed to see the inner-forum go, even though I was not part of it, because I think it think served a useful purpose. There may come a time when sensitive discussions will need to be discussed without the participants fearing that their thoughts will be ridiculed, or worse leaked to other factions. Yes, I have read about concerns regarding moles and there may be some truth to it. Although I agree that an internal limited access forum was proper, all Hiverians should have known the existence of it, even if they did not have access to it.

BEGIN SECOND E_N QUOTE, posted in Internal Hive Forums

I arrived at 2149 and I'm already in the Shadow.
All you need is competency and a will to participate deeply.

Frankychan lacks the will to participate deeply
Jamski just lacks competency.
END SECOND E_N QUOTE

My comments:
I am assuming that these are your personal opinions and not that of those of the Hive.

Jamski has made a number of posts recently that have alleged improper actions of members of the Hive. He started a thread in a non-internal Hive forum to air Hive problems before non-Hive members. The below post is the one that concerns me the most.
BEGIN JAMSKI QUOTE (in Chat regarding shaddow, CC relationship and others, thankfully, on the Internal Hive Forums)
quote:All you need is competency and a will to participate deeply.

Poppycock. You just need to suck Voltaire's penis.
quote:Frankychan lacks the will to participate deeply

Or maybe he just lacks time. Maybe he doesn't have SMAX, and can't see the turns. Maybe he does have the will, but is excluded. In any case, his opinion is more valuable in that it is rarely given. Put him in the "Elite Forum"
quote:Jamski just lacks competency.

Have you ever seen one of my games? I am really quite competent. I am not, however, a mad counter of every last mineral, nor do I always take 15 hours per turn to ensure I take the optimum choice. SMAC is a game, and one should play it. I realise that for some winning easily is not enough (as I always do, playing instictively) but only winning perfectly will suffice. Oh well.

-Jam
END JAMSKI QUOTE

My comments:
Jamski, I understand that you are angry and being defensive, but you language and insults risk drawing the attention of the Moderators for your comments. Further than that you behave in a manner that risks to diminish your standing within the Hiverian community.

I admonish both of you.

Enigma_Nova
Jamski is a valued Hive player who should not be excluded from participation in this game. Also, we the non-inner forum members are not second-class citizens and should never thought of as such. This is the Hive not Morgan Enterprises. I would hope for a sincere clarification from you retracting the suggestion that there are different classes in the Hive.

Jamski
Your language to us, in particular, your allegation of what was required to gain access to the inner forum is inexcusable. I would hope for a sincere apology to all of us for the your statement. I value your inputs to the game and appreciate now knowing that there was an internal forum, but wish you to be more civil in your opposition.

To all:
I believe that this is an internal Hive matter that should be resolved within the Hive and should not draw attention of other factions nor the Moderators. Although I considered ignoring these posts in the hopes that it would all just go away, I feel that if we do not admonish the behavior, the posts will get worse.

Mead

PS

Mead is happy to see the involvement and passions aroused by the recent game events, but is saddened but the recent incivility he has seen within the Hive. He hopes the disturbing downward trend ceases and all come to their senses as Comrades in Arms.

Kody · January 1, 2004, 19:15

I was decided that Frankychan was to be admitted, due to being able to give clear and sound advice when he posted.

However, since HongHu closed the shadow forum. *shrug*

Snowflake · January 1, 2004, 19:23

And Mead.

Sigh.

Snowflake · January 1, 2004, 19:29

I'm disclosing the shaddow membership profile here for all the interested parties.

Snowflake · January 1, 2004, 19:30

Quote:

Originally posted by Kody
Organisation of the Hive Shadow Ministry will be composed of the hydra heads, and the dragoons.

Explanation of the roles
Hydra Heads are members that have the ability to run all critical aspects of the game to an acceptable level of competence. That means they are able to run the turn, they follow diplomacy and would have a good idea what to do if forced to make a diplomatic decision. Each Hydra Head should be able to fully function autonomously in the event that he/she is the only one active.

Dragoons are members that contribute to the turns, diplomacy or infiltration. This means they have some competence in some aspect of the game and are able to consistently complete a task on a fairly regular basis.

Responsibility
Hydra Heads are meant to have the initiative to be completely autonomous. That means they need to keep reasonably up to date on all aspects of the game. Minor game decisions can be made by any hydra head without conferring with anyone else. Major decisions should talked over in the shadow forum, but if no response is received the hydra head should take the course of action they deem as best.

Dragoons will be given jobs that they are able to do and are expected to complete those jobs with no supervision. If they have trouble completing their allocated task they should inform the Shadow Ministry as soon as possible so that task can be reassigned. Frequent failure to complete tasks will result in demotion from Dragoon status.

Power Distribution
In the event of a disagreement decisions are made using majority vote. The head that played the last turn gets veto.

New heads are elected by majority vote in the Hydra. A head can be removed at any time by a majority vote.

Dragoons can be demoted or nominated by any single head.

Principles
The principles of the shadow ministry is to provide a simple government system that does not suffer from all the problems that were present in the old hive administration.

The first problem with the old hive system was that there were many government jobs that had tasks associated with them, but did not require the holder of the job to perform that task. Consequently, if that job was needed to be completed, whether the job was incomplete or whether it was going to be done had to be asserted taking up valuable time. As the hive members often lied about whether they were going to do a job, you would have to wait until the very last minute before being able to take it over.

This will be resolved by being giving jobs on merit rather than enthusiasm or loudness exhibited at the time jobs are allocated. Also by having membership status based on contribution.

The second problem with the old hive system is that hive members wanted their say on issues even if they didn’t know what the issue was. This was a real problem as extensive posts needed to be written specifically for the polls explaining all the details that they hadn’t been bothering follow. At one stage hive members were suggesting alliances or war with other factions based on dealings with AI in single player games.

This will be resolved by working with the principle that, if you don’t care enough to read what is going on then you don’t get a say.

The third problem was the team members most capable of performing the tasks found themselves with too much work and nobody to cover for them if they needed to take time away from the game.

The dragoon members will have tasks that can be covered by one of the Hydra Heads. That means their work can be easily filled in. For the heads as each will be able to function autonomously only one head needs to be active at a time. With some planning the workload can be balanced between the heads so that when important real life vacations or deadlines come up, another head can fill in.

__________________________________________________ _

The above is the current guideline. It is expected that any other issues will fall into place.

Snowflake · January 1, 2004, 19:50

Founding members: Kody, HongHu, Chairman Voltaire, God Googlie

dacole:
From Kody

Quote:

Honghu,

At this time I think that dacole should be able to become a hydra head after he learns to double check his turns and if he agrees to start skimming diplomancy posts.

We could probably ask him to do a turn after it has already been posted, then help him iron out some of those issues.

From HongHu

Quote:

I agree. Dacole has already agreed that he'll spend time to grasp the big picture, including all dip issues.

Mead and Enigma
Kody

Quote:

I doubt we'll find that many capable members (other than the ones already tagged) willing to contribute.

I have a feeling that anyone capable would have made themselves heard during the 5 years of chaos.

HongHu

Quote:

I was hoping Mead and Enigma could become more active.

HongHu

Quote:

Should we add Enigma now?

Rokossovky
HongHu

Quote:

One other thought, do we want to consider Rokossovky at all?

Kody

Quote:

Rokossovky immediately ignores us as soon as anything is mentioned related to the ACDG.

Until he starts taking an interest again, I don't think it'll really work.

Micha
Kody

Quote:

Micha seemed to give sound advice with the trading issue, so might offer him a place as a dragoon.

HongHu

Quote:

I agree with you regarding Micha. I will try talk to him when I have a chance.

Vev
From Kody

Quote:

HongHu,

Is it okay if we add Vev. He probably won't contribute much, but since he's a friend of mine in real life it should be okay?

HongHu

Quote:

Hmmm. Did he ask to be included? He must promise to do a small job, whatever it is. Tell him HongHu said that's the criteria of getting in.

Kody · January 1, 2004, 20:42

The reason why I wanted the shadow forum kept secret is if people knew of it's existance, we would have to explain how people could get in.

Because people would know all they had to do was give good advice or do a little work to get in. Some people that aren't interested in putting any long term effort in would just do that to get in then revert back into idleness. This is generally what happened with the old Hive jobs. The first week they held the job lots of activity, after that slackness.

Some of the conversations happened privately, I won't pretend I remember everything that honghu said, but I will state my private opinions for all to see.

Dacole, Rokossovky and Vev have been adequately explained from the copied posts.

Mead:
He seems to have potential as an administrator or an ambassador. He knows how to carefully write his posts so they don't annoy people.

As an administator the hive doesn't yet know him well enough to fill that position. For a ambassador position, he was still catching up to current events. Giving him peace ambassador status may insult him, also voltaire is handling that. University ambassador doesn't really exsist. Cycon wouldn't accept someone they don't know very well as they like to get very very close to their ambassador. The Drones would only stand an ambassador that actually knows what is happening in the game since they have no time for a roleplay element.

Consequently, we had no real job at this time for the abilities we saw in Mead. It was hopped he would continue taking part in discussions and become a political power within the Hive. At that time it was hoped he could provide much needed help with administration of hive members.

There was little point in asking mead to join the shadow forum as he didn't appear to be strongly interested in game details. Administration internal to the shadow forum was rather dull with many of the members on holidays and it was mainly honghu and me discussing the game specifics and trying get each other to play the turn.

I suggested to voltaire that mead might be useful. However, voltaire was unable to see any job placement for mead either.

Enigma:
At first we were rather susicipious he was a spy. However, it was determined that if he continued to take such a keen interest in the game, we would have to let him into the shadow forum anyway. That's where all the game details were being kept and where turn player training was.

He continued to take such an interest so we decided to let him in 3 days after he started posting in the hive forum. There were so access problems due to a slight stuff up with the moderators that delayed his authorisation. While he didn't have access I was sending him all the nessacary information and files via MSN. I finially decided Enigma wasn't a spy about a week ago, not that it had mattered after the first 5 days of his stay.

Vander:
He seemed mostly interested in roleplay, or making important decisions. Since there was none of that in the shadow forum his membership wasn't brought up.

Octavian X:
He wasn't 100% up to date on diplomancy, when the issue of his membership was first raised. Also he had been taking a backseat with the diplomatic dealings. Finally there wasn't very much diplomancy being dealt with in the shadow forum.

Mainly me alternately telling honghu, to handle diplomancy then me apologising for interfering, then honghu accepting my apology and the cycle happening all over again.

In addition to that we had conversations about how the other factions could have infiltrators in the general hive forum, and how to best combat it. It was decided that there wasn't very much we could do unless we cut out the rest of the team, so all the decisions were to be posted in the general hive forum anyway. I also made a complaint that we were getting several incorrect statements on our current diplomancy and when I tried to correct it I got ignored. We decided that that incorrect information that the hive members usually came up with might help mislead spys.

All the rest of the diplomatically related issues were posted to the general hive forum.

Voltaire then suggested that we let octavian in. There isn't any reason as there's not that much to interest octavian in the shadow forum.

Basically since one of the conditions of entry was that some work is achieved. Voltaire said he would ask Octavian to do some work. I was dubious and the whole idea of entry is the members do work for the reasons other than joining the shadow forum. Anyway I accepted the proposal because of the recent problems.

Frankychan:
Well the conversation went something like this.

Kody to Honghu: Frankychan gives some sound advice.
Honghu to Kody: I agree with you there.
Kody to Honghu: Well we said that the people we want in the shadow forum are either people that give sound advice or help out with the work so we let him in?
HongHu to Kody: yep

A while later....

Voltaire to Kody: and Frankychan should be given a small task to prove his worth.
Kody to Voltaire: nah we just let him in. He gives sound advice.

Kody · January 1, 2004, 21:09

Micha:
He seemed to give good advice, said he was interested in doing some of the infiltration data compliation. So we got him to do that. After that his position in the shadow forum was assured.

Jamski:
.....
Honghu can you please do this one.