For King and Country

[Case]

and it was Britain who stood alone against Hitler.

...not to mention the other Commonwealth countries

[Palaiologos]

Ahem....

At the same time when the powerfull British Empire was "standing alone" against a nation with limited strategic options such as Germany, there was also a small Balkan nation at the very edge of Europe that was facing the simultaneous invasions of Germany, Italy and Bulgaria. They even achieved the first victory of the allies in the war by counterattacking in Albania.

As usual, British betrayal contributed to its defeat.

It was about the same time as the infamous battle of Britain.

[Justinianum]

Originally posted by Palaiologos

I mean the only good thing ever to come out of that island is Austin Powers.

Rolling Stones, Beatles, Led Zeppelin, Ozzy Osbourne and IRON MAIDEN

[fairline]

Originally posted by GoPostal
Most of the world is civilised because of Britain (especially Scotland), India, Japan, China, N America, Ireland, S Africa, East Africa, and it was Britain who stood alone against Hitler.

I think India got there first with the civilisation thing - we were still running around in animal skins when the people of the Indus valley were building cities

I take your point about civilising Scotland (j/k Curt ) but I'm not sure where Japan and China come into it though, unless you count the British turning the whole of China into opium addicts. Ireland? Well we massacred lots of Irish and stood aside while they starved in the 1850s. Our record in Africa wasn't too stunning either.

And as Case said, we weren't exactly standing alone against Hitler; Canada, Australia, N Zealand and S Africa had the option of not declaring war on Germany but stood by Britain.

@Pericles: As usual you're full of it, you lousy Balkan poustes What makes you think Austin Powers had anything to do with Britain? Mike Myers is a Canadian for God's sake.

[Case]

Originally posted by Palaiologos
As usual, British betrayal contributed to its defeat.

Britain (and Australia and NZ) certainly didn't betray Greece - Churchill (foolishly) abandoned the Libyan campaign to rush elite troops into Greece (after the Greek government belatedly agreed to this - they had refused earlier offers of troops in order to avoid upsetting the Germans). During the fighting, the Commonwealth forces did retreat with unseemly haste, but had they retreated any slower they would have been destroyed. Indeed, the Commonwealth books on the Greek Campaign blame the Greek Army for letting the Commonwealth down

As for Crete: the very near sucessful defence of that Island cost the Royal Navy much of it's strength in the Med, as well as over a division's worth of infantry.

All up, the Commonwealth's intervention in Greece cost it about 3 divisions worth of infantry (more if you count the losses incurred in the prolonged North African Campaign), about a third of the RN in the Eastern Med, and probably added a year to the North African war.

Incidently, Australians also blame the British for betrayal over the Greek adventure - Churchill lied to both the Australian commander in the Middle East and the Australian government in order to get our 6th Division and the I Australian Corps HQ (he told the government that the Aussie Commander was happy with the troops going to Greece and the Aussie commander that the Australian government was about to approve the deployment and that they weren't interested in hearing his misgivings. As a result, both the General and the Government overruled their concerns over the venture in the mistaken belief that the other approved of it. The resulting disarster in Greece ended up bringing down the Australian government).

[POTUS]

Ok!
This is on the events of 1066. If you want to argue about World War 2, go to some other thread.

However, America saved Britian.

Happy New Year!!

[josefstalin]

The sun never sets on the British Empah!

[GoPostal]

Yet, but if India was so civilised, why did they have Thugee ubtil the East India Company (Scots) put a stop to it? Also, the colonies are part of the British Empire. And Fairline, you have misunderstood my comment, I meant Scotland was doing the civilising.

[curtsibling]

Originally posted by Palaiologos
Ahem....

At the same time when the powerfull British Empire was "standing alone" against a nation with limited strategic options such as Germany, there was also a small Balkan nation at the very edge of Europe that was facing the simultaneous invasions of Germany, Italy and Bulgaria. They even achieved the first victory of the allies in the war by counterattacking in Albania.

As usual, British betrayal contributed to its defeat.

It was about the same time as the infamous battle of Britain.

Well, I am one Brit (and there are others here) who remembers Greece in 1940-41 and her noble defiance against the Axis powers.

Well, history is history, and I cannot speak for the now dead British men of that time.

But the British armies in 1940 had at many times a choice between utter annihilation or escape...

Bad though it seems, we chose to retreat and fight on.
Rather than suffer pointless but heroic destruction...

Not the first time, and not the last.

[curtsibling]

Originally posted by POTUS
Ok!
This is on the events of 1066. If you want to argue about World War 2, go to some other thread.

However, America saved Britian.

Happy New Year!!

LOL!

In reality, Hitler's cretinous war tactics saved the UK, but Happy New Year anyway!

[GoPostal]

If America's hand had not been forced by Japan, Britain would probably have been at war with Hitler for much longer, but would hav eeventually survived.

[Harry Tuttle]

Originally posted by POTUS
Ok!
This is on the events of 1066. If you want to argue about World War 2, go to some other thread.

However, America saved Britian.

Happy New Year!!

Alright guys, we should probably stop threadjacking and keep the debate to the OT. POTUS is trying to put together a scenario and I think we should give him a hand instead of debating about stuff unrelated to 1066.

So, POTUS, any graphics in mind? Units? Will the Normans be event driven or will they be a seperate civ?

Try this website for information. It has a few maps of 10th century Britain, history, etc...

http://www.the-orb.net/encyclop/earl...0/asindex.html

[curtsibling]

Our navy scared off any 1940 invasion attempts.
And by the time the US arrived in force (mid-1943) the USSR
had made sure the nazis had NO longer a chance of ever invading the UK or anything!

And about the cold-war USSR in the 1950s?
We would have given them the same treatment we gave Hitler.
The British do not crack under pressure.

Our navy and terrain where a major factor in thwarting any invasions for the last 200 years.

The USA should be proud.
They are the only foreign power that has made it ashore onto our island since the Dark Ages.

[curtsibling]

POTUS, my apologies.
I have said my last words off topic, dude.

Let's talk scenario.

What kind of map are you using?
I presume it will be a biggie, and with some of Europe too?

[GoPostal]

My last OT, sorry

The RN has prevented invasion since 1588

[Palaiologos]

Hey dudes when i say British betayal i mean during the Greco-italian war of 40-41.

Prime minister Metaxas wanted to sign a treaty with the Germans prior to their invasion(we were already at war with the Italians), thus keeping Greece out of the great war, but that didn't suit well with Churchill's plans who wanted expansion of the war into the Balkans. So Metaxas was promptly assasinated by the English.

The Germans you see had sent an ultimatum that any presence of British troops in Greece will be considered an act of war agaisnt the Reich. Subsequently Metaxas refused any aid Churchill offered so as not to incite the Germans to attack. The Brits wanted to send just token troops only to provoke the Germans to invade. Metaxas death cleared the way for British intervention. It is worth mentioning that the Aussie officers were drawing up evacuation plans before even reaching Greece.

don't get me wrong here- i don't doubt Australian bravery. Indeed the Greek army although in a state of colapse after the German breakthrough from Yugoslavia decided to prolong its resistance to the Germans just to give valuable time to the Australian troops to escape.

Amazingly enough the Greek army in WW2 suffered no defeat in actuall combat. The fortifications in Macedonia and Thrace were never captured(surrendered after the Germans had bypassed them via FYROM) and the Greek Epirus army(500.000 men) being in danger of being cut off from Greece by that same German breakthrough from FYROM, surrendered to the Wehrmacht instead of its Italian opponents. They considered a disgrace you see to surrender to opponents they had routed for 7 months.

[Palaiologos]

Dark days these were..

After the initial Italian invasion the Greek army counterattacked in Albania. The city of Avlona (last major port in Italian hands) was ready to fall, and with the Italians lacking air supply capabilities it would spell disaster for the Italian army in Albania(500-600.000 men). The Italian high command terrified at the prospect of such a catastrophic defeat decided to ask the Germans for help. The German ambassador in Athens contacted the Greek goverment and told them that if we were gentlemen enough to spare the Italians the Furher himself would mediate peace. The Greek goverment fell for the bait, Avlona was not taken and the war continued.


After the German conquest, in tribute to Greek bravery no greek POWs were taken and the officers were allowed to retain their swords. Actually the campaign in Greece is considerd the last "gentleman's war" by historians. I mean later followed Barbarossa that shaped WW2 in a terrible and barbaric event and of course , Korea,Vietnam and the modern wars of our times.

Terribly sorry for the Off topic and the rant.

[POTUS]

Ok, currently I am looking at and modifying maps to decide which one I'll use.

[curtsibling]

POTUS, keep us informed of developments!

We have the full range of historians here to keep the scenario on track!

PS
Do you plan on a series?

[josefstalin]

including Civil War?

[GoPostal]

Yes, you could have the Conquest (C10 - 1096), 100 Years War, War of the Roses, Tudors, Armada, Stuarts, Civil War and Jacobites.

[josefstalin]

[mutters triumphantly]
and after that it was all Empire!

How about a scenario covering the succesion in the 1660's,
also the Plague and the Great Fire of London could make "guest" appearances

Tip/Reminder- If you want a unit which destroys all units in one square, but doesn't create pollution, you can set its attack value between 80 and 84,

although I don't know any way of having a unit which does cause polution but doesn't destroy all units
[sigh]

[POTUS]

This will be a series, but first the Normans, Saxons and Vikings.
I think I have the map, but I am still looking, and if I see a better one, I will use it.

[GoPostal]

How big a map are you including? Will you have NW Germany, France, Norway, Denmark?

[techumseh]

Originally posted by POTUS
Ok. I think this will be a mutiplayer scenario on the events of 1066.

Be sure to review the 1066 scenario in the original Bestonet collection.

[Valuk]

Bah, multiplayer scenarios aren't nearly as good as single player one, thought you'd need some experts to help you, since the actual happenings were FAR more complicated than what they teach in schools.
As I remember it(ah, those were the days!), the Celts allied with the Vikings and harried the coasts, and Harold's brother defected to the Scandinavian side.

[GoPostal]

Harold's brother (Odo), did in fact defect to Hardraade, but they were routed at Stamford Bridge.

[fairline]

Originally posted by Valuk
Bah, multiplayer scenarios aren't nearly as good as single player one, thought you'd need some experts to help you, since the actual happenings were FAR more complicated than what they teach in schools.
As I remember it(ah, those were the days!), the Celts allied with the Vikings and harried the coasts, and Harold's brother defected to the Scandinavian side.

It's a confusing period of history. The inhabitants of Britain when the Romans invaded were Celts who had been pushed westwards into Wales and Cornwall by Germanic invaders, the Angles, Saxons, Jutes and Frisians many years before the Norman Invasion (in the 6th and 7th Centuries). These Germanic invaders collectively became known as English. The heyday of the Viking raids on the British Isles were the 9th and 10th Centuries, during which time Wales and England were also raided by Irish Celts, although they were not allied with the Vikings.

Harald Hadraade was not part of the main Viking period (I think Corelli Barnett called him 'last of the Vikings'); like William Duke of Normandy (himself descended from Viking raiders) Harald saw a chance of usurping the English throne when Edward the Confessor died without an heir and it passed almost by default to Harold Godwinson. The earlier Viking raids had been principally about raiding for booty, rather than taking the throne of the Anglo-Saxon kingdoms, although many Danish Vikings eventually established their own province in Eastern and Northern England (the 'Danelaw').

Although the Norweigan Harald Hadraade had led the life of a Viking in his youth it's best to think of him as an invader intent on taking the throne, rather than a Viking raider. Come to think of it, a scenario based on his exploits would make a fantastic scenario. Among other things he became a Varangian Guard in the service of the Byzantine Empire, and subsequently ran off with the Emperor's daughter, IIRC.

[fairline]

Originally posted by GoPostal
Harold's brother (Odo), did in fact defect to Hardraade, but they were routed at Stamford Bridge.

Odo Bishop of Bayeaux was Wiilam of Normandy's brother, GoPostal. Harold's treacherous brother was called Tostig, who, as you probably know, had been exiled by Harold after ruling as a tyrant in Northumbria I think. It was Tostig who stirred William and Haraald Hadraade into invading England and as you say, he was killed at the battle of Stamford Bridge along with Hadraade.

[POTUS]

Ok, so the Celts and Vikings, under Harald were attacking against Harold, were they allied with the Normans, or was it just that they both had the same goal?

And, if I am reading this right, the Celts were in Ireland and Wales. Where is Cornwall? And were the Irish Celts the only Celts fighting Harold, or were the Welsh ones also allied with Harald?

And, how important were the nobles?