Proof that American middle class has become too alienated from the reality of warfare

[JimmyCracksCorn]

Originally posted by mrmitchell

Tuomerehu/VJ is right (you're bloody ignorant) but I'm bored.


(1) Yes, the Civil War was the bloodiest war in AMERICAN history. But as far as world history, there are far bloodier wars.
(2) Didn't the CSA attempt to burn down a few supply buildings in Richmond so the USA couldn't use them? And then, of course, the firs spread, and the city was toastified


(1) The Civil War was fought in 1861-1865. If a man old enough to fight in that war (at least 18) were still around today, don't you...well, ****it. The direct way of saying this is that PEOPLE DON'T LIVE 150 YEARS YET. The last CW vet is looooong dead
(2) AFAEurope, it's only 100,000,000 (thanks Tuome) people 65 and older (not 90). And, yes, old people actually do vote. That's how the affect foreign policy, and they're doing it a lot more than dead CW vets are.


We're trying to prove which continent knows more about the horrors of war.

What's the lesson of all this folks?
Read the thread before you post

You ignorant ****s simply don't understand plain English. I said ONE OF the bloodiest wars in history! ONE OF ONE OF ONE OF ONE OF, and I even repeated it for the ignorant likes of Tass, although I guess I was overestimating the intelligence of the rest of you. You think whenever an American talks about something that happened in US history, he's automatically implying it never happened anywhere else. I'm well aware that far bloodier wars have taken place in many other parts of the world... but a bloody war is a bloody war, who cares if 1 million people died or 20 million, its still death.

But to automatically come to the conclusion that because more wars have been fought on European soil, Euro's must (inherently) be more aware of the consequences of war just doesn't makes logical sense. People gain experience, not countries... countries are not these monolithic, anthropomorphized (which means asigning human traits to non human things) entities that can somehow learn and gain exerience. People gain knowledge and experience, and people influence the actions of governments. And there is no logical reason why the majority of Europeans (the majority of whom have never been in a combat situation) would have any more knowledge of the dangers of war than a North American. Do you have more visible reminders? Yes, of course, its a much older place, and so naturally has more relics from times of war. But under this logic, simply by creating more war memorials and statues in the US, we can accomplish the same thing. Does that make sense to you?

And you're right, I overestimated the date of the last civil war vet's death. The last one died in 1959, a while ago, but in relative terms not that long. Certainly the children of civil war vets are still alive, and alive to tell the awful stories of the war that they've heard. I wasn't to refute anyone's argument that there are people in Europe who have first hand experience with war... I was just trying to make a point that it doesn't matter.

And god knows there are plenty of European immigrants in the US who can, and do, tell us all about the horrors of war. I grew up next door to a lady who survived the Nazi concentration camps and even still has her ID number tatooed on her arm, which she showed us, and gave talks at our school about.

My point it: get off your high horse, you're not that much different than anyone else. Are there ignorant Americans? Of course. Are there equally ignorant Europeans? Definately. Many people here are proof of that.

[JimmyCracksCorn]

We're trying to prove which continent knows more about the horrors of war.

Ok, if you want to split hairs, but in any case you'll be forced to make broad generalizations, and generalizations are great for the bar room, but not in what is supposedly an academic discussion.

[mrmitchell]

And you're right, I overestimated the date of the last civil war vet's death. The last one died in 1959, a while ago, but in relative terms not that long. Certainly the children of civil war vets are still alive, and alive to tell the awful stories of the war that they've heard. I wasn't to refute anyone's argument that there are people in Europe who have first hand experience with war... I was just trying to make a point that it doesn't matter.

WW2 vets on the other hand are still alive, and those that experienced it first hand number 100 million (in Europe alone).

You ignorant ****s simply don't understand plain English. I said ONE OF

You ignorant **** just doesn't understand, I never said you were wrong. You said "It I think..." so I confirmed you, but reminded you there were bloodier ones.

Now, let's find a new word. Ignorant's been used at least 3 times already. http://thesaurus.reference.com/search?q=ignorant

[JimmyCracksCorn]

WW2 vets on the other hand are still alive, and those that experienced it first hand number 100 million (in Europe alone).

Ok, granted. But what happens after they die? Its going to happen soon... So then what? Will Europe then regress to the likes of (in your mind) the United States? That logic is ridiculous.

Now, let's find a new word. Ignorant's been used at least 3 times already. http://thesaurus.reference.com/search?q=ignorant

Well, as Mark Twain once said, "use the right word, not its second cousin". Ignorant, in this case, is the right word, so I'll continue to use it. You ignorant ass.

[JimmyCracksCorn]

You ignorant **** just doesn't understand, I never said you were wrong. You said "It I think..." so I confirmed you, but reminded you there were bloodier ones.

I said "I think" for the purposes of trying to remain objective and to not come off as a know-it-all, but I said it in no uncertain terms. Name one historian who would say that the bloodiness of the Civil War was negligable. And your ICQ buddies don't count...

[Nubclear]

Originally posted by JimmyCracksCorn


You ignorant ****s simply don't understand plain English. I said ONE OF the bloodiest wars in history! ONE OF ONE OF ONE OF ONE OF, and I even repeated it for the ignorant likes of Tass, although I guess I was overestimating the intelligence of the rest of you. You think whenever an American talks about something that happened in US history, he's automatically implying it never happened anywhere else. I'm well aware that far bloodier wars have taken place in many other parts of the world... but a bloody war is a bloody war, who cares if 1 million people died or 20 million, its still death.

But to automatically come to the conclusion that because more wars have been fought on European soil, Euro's must (inherently) be more aware of the consequences of war just doesn't makes logical sense. People gain experience, not countries... countries are not these monolithic, anthropomorphized (which means asigning human traits to non human things) entities that can somehow learn and gain exerience. People gain knowledge and experience, and people influence the actions of governments. And there is no logical reason why the majority of Europeans (the majority of whom have never been in a combat situation) would have any more knowledge of the dangers of war than a North American. Do you have more visible reminders? Yes, of course, its a much older place, and so naturally has more relics from times of war. But under this logic, simply by creating more war memorials and statues in the US, we can accomplish the same thing. Does that make sense to you?

And you're right, I overestimated the date of the last civil war vet's death. The last one died in 1959, a while ago, but in relative terms not that long. Certainly the children of civil war vets are still alive, and alive to tell the awful stories of the war that they've heard. I wasn't to refute anyone's argument that there are people in Europe who have first hand experience with war... I was just trying to make a point that it doesn't matter.

And god knows there are plenty of European immigrants in the US who can, and do, tell us all about the horrors of war. I grew up next door to a lady who survived the Nazi concentration camps and even still has her ID number tatooed on her arm, which she showed us, and gave talks at our school about.

My point it: get off your high horse, you're not that much different than anyone else. Are there ignorant Americans? Of course. Are there equally ignorant Europeans? Definately. Many people here are proof of that.

[St Leo]

Originally posted by JimmyCracksCorn Besides, the fact that we haven't had many wars on this continent is supposed to be a bad thing? Maybe that the Euros have spent the last 2000 years blowing each other up and conducting ethnic cleansings (the last of which happening only 50 years ago) says something? But again, I'm just ignorant...

Yes, that when they decided to stop, dissenters moved to the US in order to blow each other up and conduct ethnic cleansings there.

[yavoon]

I like this. its sort of like a penis contest only involving knowing ppl who suffered greatly.

[GePap]

Originally posted by Sinapus


On the contrary, I have a good idea of what it's like... and don't want that coming to my own shores.

But it's a nifty excuse for some people to justify pacifism, I guess.

The best this merits is

[GePap]

Originally posted by lord of the mark
If youre going to broaden it to political violence, would you include the race riots of the 1960s (and before and after as well?) There are blocks in the city i live in that are only now recovering from the devastation of April 1968.

And what was the last time anyone held some rememberance ceremony? I would include racial riots in political violence...lucky for people in the UStese riots were localized an were not part of some nationawide political upheaval.

[GePap]

Originally posted by lord of the mark
this of course assumes that all Americans were born here, which is not the case. My wife lived through the Hungarian revolution as a child, both her parents are death camp survivors. A few miles from where i used to live there is a shopping center that flies the flag of the old Republic of Viet Nam (Ie South VN) and its restaurants sometimes host ARVN reunions. In fact there were thousands of Americans pre 9/11 who had experienced war first hand as civilians in their own homes. We should not forget that they are Americans as well.

Being an immigrant myself, it would be hard for me to forget, no? And Sava's parents are first generation immigrants, no? Interestingly, the classes of people who on average are the most jingoistic are those that ignore what you said most often.

[DanS]

What's wrong with the video?

[JimmyCracksCorn]

Originally posted by Comrade Tassadar

Don't bust a gut now, Tass.

[Whoha]

Not enough explosions Dans.

[JimmyCracksCorn]

Leo:

Yes, that when they decided to stop, dissenters moved to the US in order to blow each other up and conduct ethnic cleansings there.

Hey, I love unsubstantiated cheap shots too. Especially ones with winky faces so I can remain ambiguous as to what I actually mean.

GePap:

Interestingly, the classes of people who on average are the most jingoistic are those that ignore what you said most often.

So what you're saying is that even though there is no inherent reason why someone in North America would, or could, be less informed on the horrors of war (or whatever it is you want to call it), most, in fact, are. You make the connection between jingoism and ignorance as well. So what I take this to mean is that there is ample reminder in the US of war, just people ignore it. Can you back this up in any kind of quantitative way, or should I just go ahead and throw your hypothesis into the hearsay bin?

DanS

What's wrong with the video?

Because if the soldiers aren't raping babies, its not accurate. Unless they're depicting Europeans, they know better...

Besides, anything that shows the soldiers while not including a complex geopolitical analysis and a human rights commentary, full of details and stats, is just not appropriate. Unless of course you're arguing on this forum against it, then details aren't necessary.

[Nubclear]

Originally posted by JimmyCracksCorn


Don't bust a gut now, Tass.

It's difficult not to

[St Leo]

Originally posted by JimmyCracksCorn
Leo: Hey, I love unsubstantiated cheap shots too. Especially ones with winky faces so I can remain ambiguous as to what I actually mean.

Wanna have sex?

[Sprayber]

Originally posted by Spiffor
I couldn't stand to watch this horror more than 10 seconds. Is there any moment where you actually see soldiers doing a soldier's job?

Being a soldier means putting up with hours upon hours of boredom puchated by moments of intense pain and action.

It means standing in line for chow, mail and just about everything else. It means sleeping in the rain and mud, in a tent, or occasionally in the barracks. It means walking, and walking, and walking, with the occasional ride. All followed by a few moments of fighting someone you may or may not have even seen.


Unless your the airforce or navy

[Nubclear]

I sense hostility.

[Sprayber]

Originally posted by Comrade Tassadar
I sense hostility.

yeah well, the general rule is whatever accomidations the army has, the airforce is at least two steps above. If we are sleeping on the ground, they have tent with cots. If we have tents with a cot they are usually in some barracks somewhere. If we have barracks, they usually have some nice hotel room provided for them. And the first time I ate in an Air Force mess hall I thought I was in a restaurant
.

[Nubclear]

Why not join the Airforce then?

[JohnT]

They have higher qualifications and standards.

[Nubclear]

Why the cute smiley?

[JohnT]

Hey, I love unsubstantiated cheap shots too. Especially ones with winky faces so I can remain ambiguous as to what I actually mean.

[Spiffor]

Originally posted by JimmyCracksCorn
Ok, granted. But what happens after they die? Its going to happen soon... So then what? Will Europe then regress to the likes of (in your mind) the United States? That logic is ridiculous.

Your idea that countries don't get knowledge nor experience is completely bull. There is something called "collective memory" or "history" if you prefer it that way, that strongly influences what knowledge and what values the people of a country will learn.
I've never experienced war, and I sure hope I never will. But in my childhood, I was drowned under TV docs about war, under comics about war, I listened to my grandpa's war memories. Heck, every time I travel between France and Germany by car, I see the names of massive slaughters, I see mass graveyards, I see fields that I know were more barren than the moon a mere 90 years ago... In Germany, I lived in Stuttgart, a city in which basically nothing is older than WW2.

This is living memory. I didn't experience war firsthand, but the shadow of the war is somehting I experience firsthand very often (and in fact, everyday when in Stuttgart). The memories of destruction, the memories of our terrible mistakes as Europeans, the memories of the horror our civilization brought to earth will not disappear when the last vet will die. They'll take many generations to fade away.

[Spiffor]

Originally posted by Sprayber
It means standing in line for chow, mail and just about everything else. It means sleeping in the rain and mud, in a tent, or occasionally in the barracks. It means walking, and walking, and walking, with the occasional ride. All followed by a few moments of fighting someone you may or may not have even seen.

The few pics I've seen in this emotefest were about soldiers hugging and looking all heroic and great (and I don't think there is anything really great in waiting in line for chow, sorry).

Besides, during the war in Iraq, I assume the moments of action were more frequent than in peacetime in some German base

For some reason, I doubt the video shows either a scene of killing, or even a scene of boring daily life without any glitz.

[Spiffor]

Originally posted by DanS
What's wrong with the video?

It is an emotefest. It is a completely artificial displa of emotion -oh our boys are great, we love'em- that has nothing to do with the dull/boring/enraging/slaughtering reality of the field.

I don't need soldiers raping babies, but I think it is an extremely bad tribute to the soldiers to show them as all huggy-nilly rather than in a true light. This "tribute" is obviously meant for the civilian audience back home. I'd personally feel insulted if I was a soldier, because it looks highly patronizing.

[Nubclear]

Or your just jealous cause American soldiers are better than French soldiers

[Sprayber]

Originally posted by JohnT
They have higher qualifications and standards.

No, cause I really wanted to wear the cute black beret.

[Sprayber]

Originally posted by Spiffor

The few pics I've seen in this emotefest were about soldiers hugging and looking all heroic and great (and I don't think there is anything really great in waiting in line for chow, sorry).

Besides, during the war in Iraq, I assume the moments of action were more frequent than in peacetime in some German base

For some reason, I doubt the video shows either a scene of killing, or even a scene of boring daily life without any glitz.

The site isn't going to show pictures of death. It's not going to show accidental firing on friendly targets. It's not going to show the instances when a soldier dies cause he ****s up. It is going to show soldiers missing their families and all that stuff because that is the sites intended audience.