Turn 2151 maps and discussion.

[Jamski]

I've just been talking to Kody, and he says he will leave the "Shadow Forum" if we can have the same level of dicussion here in the real forum. So, let's keep it sensible here, and stick any number-crunching in size=1 so those who are bored with that can skip it faster.

Some screenshots :


General view of the Hive core area.


Hive Side area


Hive North area


Current world map, as we are allowed to show it I don't know how the map-project is progressing.

-Jam

[Kody]

I've just been talking to Kody, and he says he will leave the "Shadow Forum" if we can have the same level of dicussion here in the real forum.

I did not promise that. I said I would bow to the majority decision.

(Ok, but we can forget this whole project if the "Shadow Forum" continues -Jam)

[Jamski]

Ok, this is our attempt to run the Hive a bit better. This thread will be EDITED by me. If it doesn't belong, its deleted, sorry. It is for discussion, collection of other threads for Kody, and all that stuff. I will stop this job if there is even a HINT of a secret forum being continued.

What we can SEE

I can't help noting how many bases are using the stockpile bug

Jamski Clovek kills itself this turn with a colonypod and can be re-built on the same spot, gaining 2 pops. I called this base "New Jamski Clovek" but that can be discussed. I assume we can repeat this trick indefinitely to gain population to be sent to other bases? Is this worth the trouble?

Central Planning is sitting at size 7. Should we consider either a Hab complex or keeping it that size?

Hive has some worm visitors - they can be taken care of by the garrison.

We have probe foils in the water. The Drones have a foil carriying probes just off the universites coast.

The Angels have 2-2-4 foils off our south coast. We can expect coastal bombardment.

-Jam

[Jamski]

What We Can't See


Info on all our bases in this format:

Name(size) surplus nuts-minerals-energy built facs (currently producing) NOTES

• The Hive(3) 1-9-10
• Utopia(3) 3-4-2
• Vanderburg(3) 1-17-14 Creche, RecTanks GOLDEN AGE
• Vevtopia(4) 2-12-5 Creche, RecTanks, Node GOLDEN AGE
• Voltairograd(3) 2-14-9 HQ, Creche, 3SPs GOLDEN AGE
• Yang Base(3) 4-5-3
• Central Planning(7) -11-2-3 Creche, Tanks, Node, HGP HUNGER!(-11nuts) All pop are Librarians.
• Googliegrad(3) 0-5-5 (Tanks)
• Great Clustering(3) 9-4-2 (Formers)
• HongHu KongHu(3) 2-6-7
• Jamski's Prison Cell(3) 2-6-5
• Kommuniza City(3) 0-13-8 Tanks
• Michanapolis(4) 2-12-5-Creche, Node GOLDEN AGE
• New Jamski Clovek??? (3) ?-?-?
• New Moscow(3) 0-11-3 Tanks
• Octavianburg(3) 2-9-7 Tanks
• Rokossovskygrad(6) 2-2-8 Creche, Tanks, Node (Hospital) All pop Librarians
• Stactic University(3) 0-9-4

Hive Research Status : Reseaching Env Economics (treefarm)
Tech cost : 482
Accummulated so far : 142
Tech per turn : 103

Budget
Total EC reserves : 118
Income (not including stockpile bug) : 111
Maintainance : -10
Balance : +101

-Jam

[Jamski]

Saved for What the other Factions can see

Millitary forces :

Hive Units :   Active  Prod.  Lost

Land Units       18     0      0
Naval Units       2     0      0
Air Units         0     0      0
Non-Combat       84     1      0
----------------------------------
All Units       104     1      0  


Univ. Units :  Active  Prod.  Lost

Land Units        7     0      0
Naval Units       0     0      0
Air Units         0     0      0
Non-Combat       37     4      0
----------------------------------
All Units        44     4      0  


PEACE Units :  Active  Prod.  Lost

Land Units       10     3      3
Naval Units       4     4      0
Air Units         0     0      0
Non-Combat       32     4      4
----------------------------------
All Units        46    11      7  


Drone Units :  Active  Prod.  Lost

Land Units       11     3      0
Naval Units       0     0      0
Air Units         0     0      0
Non-Combat       51     3      0
----------------------------------
All Units        62     6      0

Can we get the CyCon and Roze at least from the Drones please.

-Jam

[Jamski]

Saved for Interesting Stuff and Other Problems

This is mainly the CyCon-Peace war thingie. I'll paste some comments accross into this thread.

-Jam

[Kody]

I can't help noting how many bases are using the stockpile bug

It's a trade mark of turns that I run, most of the bases end up in stockpile as I really fine tune those crawlers, and the rush building

Jamski Clovek kills itself this turn with a colonypod and can be re-built on the same spot, gaining 2 pops. I called this base "New Jamski Clovek" but that can be discussed. I assume we can repeat this trick indefinitely to gain population to be sent to other bases? Is this worth the trouble?

The answer is I don't know yet. At this point in time the answer is no. However it really depends on if we need production to build more SPs, whether we want to increase tech rate as aggressively as we did while racing to MMI, whether we're going to war, and how good our terraforming is.

I assumed we probably won't use it as we'll be preparing for war, or building SPs again. I'm uncertain how badly we will want other techs, which justifys trying for more population.

Central Planning is sitting at size 7. Should we consider either a Hab complex or keeping it that size?

I'm in favour of keeping it that size, it's kindof difficult to boom as I suspect we've already passed the critical odd number b-drone limit.

Hive has some worm visitors - they can be taken care of by the garrison.

Indeed, I ran map editor tests while doing last turn.

We have probe foils in the water. The Drones have a foil carriying probes just off the universites coast.

Probe foil heading for data angels, Drones are heading to gather techs from the university.

The Angels have 2-2-4 foils off our south coast. We can expect coastal bombardment.

It looks they they already bombarded our terraformer I believe it's not possible to actually kill land units with bombardment so it's not critical for us. The data angels are in free market, and I think it may have trouble invading us due to all the drones. I've requested that buster give us some infiltration data on the data angels so we can make an informed decision on what to do.

I also intend to setup an AI in freemarket and see what happens if too many drones are created from military units outside terrority. I suspect the AI eventually gives up and disbands the units or returns the units back to base.

Also need to check what happens if the terraformer isn't there to bombard do we lose terraforming etc.

[Jamski]

Some comments on our bases. We have many size 3 bases with 1 talent, 1 worker and 1 drone, or a talent, a drone and a doctor. I'm sure this has already been thought of, but the addition of a Node to these bases woul bring most of them into a GA.

However, Kommie City, New Moscow, Static University, Googliegrad, the Hive (and Vanderburg?) all lack food, and are stuck at size 3. At this size, there's no point in building the Nodes. I'd suggest either we get these bases to produce some more formers, or shell units for future upgrading when we get the tech, or set up farm+crawlers for them to get them growing again. We will be able to get these bases Tree Farms in a few turns, and then they will have enough food to boom. Perhaps we should "prime" them now with nodes and creches. As it is, these bases seem to be "twiddling their thumbs" at the moment, waiting for Tree Farms. Of course, that's just a mental side effect of seeing all the stockpile

-Jam

[Frankychan]

Thank you so much Comrade Jamski! I'm really grateful for the screenshots and the data.

As for the "stuck" bases, I agree that we should gear those bases for the crawlers, then improve them at a later date. Even though that might not be very productive, we should consider our moves more carefully due to this CyCon/PEACE thing.

[Kody]

Some comments on our bases. We have many size 3 bases with 1 talent, 1 worker and 1 drone, or a talent, a drone and a doctor. I'm sure this has already been thought of, but the addition of a Node to these bases woul bring most of them into a GA.

Super drones make golden age "impossible" in size 3 and size 5 bases, due to the pysch limit of 2 pysch per citizen. Shortly the only two bases exempt from having super drones will be Utopia Base and Great Clustering. That's why I haven't bothered to develop those bases.

Correction: not impossible, just fairly difficult.

However, Kommie City, New Moscow, Static University, Googliegrad, the Hive (and Vanderburg?) all lack food, and are stuck at size 3. At this size, there's no point in building the Nodes. I'd suggest either we get these bases to produce some more formers, or shell units for future upgrading when we get the tech, or set up farm+crawlers for them to get them growing again. We will be able to get these bases Tree Farms in a few turns, and then they will have enough food to boom. Perhaps we should "prime" them now with nodes and creches. As it is, these bases seem to be "twiddling their thumbs" at the moment, waiting for Tree Farms. Of course, that's just a mental side effect of seeing all the stockpile

No bases are twiddling their thumbs. As hard as it is to believe all those bases in stockpile built something this turn.

Mainly there were formers built this turn.

[Kody]

I rehomed some of the formers and scouts, to distrubte our support.
This was really something I should have done last turn, but I forgot.

Managed to save 3 minerals from various bases over the support limit. The bases Octavian X and New Moscow are still over their support limit it's suggested that next turn (after I post the post turn save) someone could try and distrubte the support if possible from those two bases too.

Another thing that needs to be done is terraforming piorities. You see it's been fairly clear that we need condensors to allow for further pop booming. However, we'll need to consider what other terraforming we might want to do.

So far aside from condensors I'm thinkin of raising land at the monolith near rokossovkygrad. This will raise the sea bonuses into land bonuses. That gives us more useful things to terraform. Also raising that point gives the advantage that the elevation conditions will be right for boreholing the mineral bonus that is currently forested. I hope to would like suggestions of other places to borehole.

Remember that formers tend to be localised so a spread of terraforming options in different places depending on where the terraformers currently are tends to be most optimial.

Crawler from rokossokygrad moving within range of the currently vanderburg controlled energy bonus. I expect to have enough resources to rush the research hospital at rokossovkygrad and the energy losses are low enough we can get some nicer tech.

Some fiddling revealed we'll be at a tech rate of 3 per turn in 2152 anyway without the governorship. However not getting the governorship meant that we fall about 40 labs short of getting tech in 2153.

One of the exploring foils is heading south towards believer terriority. I don't really know what else to do with it except explore that terriority, as there nothing else I can think of the foil doing.

Northern foil finished survey of the island to our north. 3 land raises to finish the inland sea. Not sure it's very important now that the hive and drones have such a lead on the other factions. Will continue the plan to some degree, but with a much reduced priority.

Probe ship heading for data angel base to infiltrate in turn 2153. Should work okay as long as the data angels don't have any extra ships. They're running freemarket so I don't think they will.

Vevtopia, Michanpolis, Vanderburg and Voltariograd are in golden age and booming looks pretty good and I think those booms will finish off at 7 nicely. It appears that Utopia base and great clustering the last of the pre-super drone boom bases can start building children's creches immediately and start booming in turn 2153. The main problem is I'm worried the terraforming around that area isn't sufficient to support new population. Might need to shift formers in that direction.

The next base site will be at (10,26), and the (10,14) base site has been canceled to avoid a diplomatic incident with the drones. It appears that there would be terrioritial problems if we planted the (10,14) base before they plant their currently planned base. However if we plant later we can reclaim the (10,14) base site by planting one of the planned bases (14,14) first.

The (10,26) base site also has alot more potential as it has 2 mineral bonuses and a monolith within range. Unfortunately the mineral bonuses are flat. That means we need to borehole as mines would be useless. If we can send enough terraformers that base will become one of our most power production bases, and may become a major launching site for choppers.

Turn is 10% done, but I've figured out the majority of the unit moves so progress should leap forward and it will become 50% done in another 2 hours. After that I'll need to sit and think about the production balancing, estimated time of turn posting is about 7-9 hours from now.

[Octavian X]

Sorry that I have little to contribute. I noticed this thread way too late, and will be asleep in about 15 minutes.

I'd just like to say: THIS is a good way to run the Hive. New threads each turn, with this type of concise information. Bravo, and here's to hoping we take more good steps forward like this.

[Kody]

Finished turn. After rushing all the buildings and moving all the crawlers etc.

I decided to check in the scenerio editor how those data angel foils will effect us at New Moscow. I got a shock, they destoried large portions of terraforming and it appears that the AI bombard terraforming they're unable to see!

Capping the terraforming would be impossible due to the large amounts forests that would need capping. So I tried building units and seeing if I could come up with a combination that would kill off the data angels. It appears that we get a 25% bonus when doing artillery warfare. Vev, our tactical minister, calculated it was a 5:1 odds.

I made a prototype and rushed it with one of our crawlers. The alternative was letting it build normally and losing one or two terraform improvements every turn while it's building. I'm not sure I did the right thing, but I didn't have any time to confer with people.

Left a message with buster asking for missile prototype. I doubt they will as it means diverting production from their pop booming facility and police building. Production looks messy for the drones at the moment.

[Enigma_Nova]

Originally posted by Kody
So far aside from condensors I'm thinkin of raising land at the monolith near rokossovkygrad. This will raise the sea bonuses into land bonuses. That gives us more useful things to terraform.

If they're randomly generated bonuses they disappear.
If they're manually placed they float.
Be careful Kody...

Vevtopia, Michanpolis, Vanderburg and Voltariograd are in golden age and booming looks pretty good and I think those booms will finish off at 7 nicely. It appears that Utopia base and great clustering the last of the pre-super drone boom bases can start building children's creches immediately and start booming in turn 2153. The main problem is I'm worried the terraforming around that area isn't sufficient to support new population. Might need to shift formers in that direction.

Or do a crawler dance

Kody thinks more than I do... Must have a better grasp on the game. (He -has- played most of it)

[Jamski]

I made a prototype and rushed it with one of our crawlers. The alternative was letting it build normally and losing one or two terraform improvements every turn while it's building. I'm not sure I did the right thing, but I didn't have any time to confer with people.

I would have done the same... don't know if that means that is bad tactics though.

I'd just like to say: THIS is a good way to run the Hive. New threads each turn, with this type of concise information. Bravo, and here's to hoping we take more good steps forward like this.

Thanks I'll make the maps and post up all the data as soon as I get each turn. Then everyone can post what they think (even if its dumb, because a dumb suggestion corrected means you learn something) and Kody might be drawn to notice things and possiblities. Kody will post what he's done that turn at the end of the thread, so we all stay informed.

Some fiddling revealed we'll be at a tech rate of 3 per turn in 2152 anyway without the governorship.

That would be sweet. I suppose you mean 3 turns per tech though.

Kody - before I forget - I've notice that in most of my games I start sea-terra-forming too late. Some bases will benefit much more from kelp+tidal than farm + condensor. I'm thinking of the Hive for instance, and HongHu KongHu. We have the tech, and I think a couple of sea-formers should be a priority. The sooner sea-forming can start the better, as tasty 3-0-3 tiles take only a few turns to do, and help both our growth and tech rate. Minerals - well we can forget sea minerals - can be supplied from forests, boreholes and crawlers, and then we save the long t-forming times for farm+condensor combinations. (4-1-1 at best)

-Jam

[Snowflake]

This is exactly what we need. I wish we had you working like this from long ago Jamski. I'm now skimming posts but will try to paticipate more later.

Oh just one note regarding food. We got Eco Eng last turn so most formers have been working on condensors and hopefully it will help with the food situation. But I'm sure you already noticed it.

Another thing we did accept pact with CC didn't we?

[Kody]

Kody - before I forget - I've notice that in most of my games I start sea-terra-forming too late. Some bases will benefit much more from kelp+tidal than farm + condensor. I'm thinking of the Hive for instance, and HongHu KongHu. We have the tech, and I think a couple of sea-formers should be a priority. The sooner sea-forming can start the better, as tasty 3-0-3 tiles take only a few turns to do, and help both our growth and tech rate. Minerals - well we can forget sea minerals - can be supplied from forests, boreholes and crawlers, and then we save the long t-forming times for farm+condensor combinations. (4-1-1 at best)

Hive will lose it's coastal status. However, you're correct in mentioning that we could build a sea former. To tell the truth I would lean away from the sea former at the moment. The main problem with that is that all the food we have is being crawled to specialist bases. Sea supply crawlers are expensive, and we haven't used up all of our land area yet. On the flip side if we start planting kelp now it'll grow later, but the game will probably be already in the bag by then.

I'm willing to hear the counter argument if there is something I forgot to take into account.

I know that automatically placed specials don't happen side by side. So at least one of them will stay. If one was an automatically placed one it will convert into a unity pod, and we can pop it and hopefully get something nice since it's next to the hive. If we lose it and we're troubled by that, we can sink land and get the sea special back. (tested all this in the scenerio editor a long time ago)

Another thing we did accept pact with CC didn't we?

I was advised by the cycon ambassador to accept the pact, and the ambassador will sort out the problems with the strange threats we got.

[Kody]

Buster has agreed to build a missile unit in a few turns and give us the missile prototype.

We're giving buster an extra probe and loan of a transport.

[Jamski]

To tell the truth I would lean away from the sea former at the moment. The main problem with that is that all the food we have is being crawled to specialist bases. Sea supply crawlers are expensive, and we haven't used up all of our land area yet. On the flip side if we start planting kelp now it'll grow later, but the game will probably be already in the bag by then.

I'm willing to hear the counter argument if there is something I forgot to take into account.

Well, its not really a counter argument, just a suggestion. The investment needed to plant a bit of Kelp and stick in a few Tidals is very low, compared to the potential return. Like I said before, I always wish I'd terraformed the sea earlier in my games, as bases end up working sea tiles for 1 nut or something, when it could be 3 nuts + some ecs and make another specialist in the base. Just my opinion.

-Jam

[Enigma_Nova]

Yeah... speaking of maps.
I'm trying to do a current map of the factions on Chiron.
But I'll need several things:
Drone Base Co-ords
A place to upload images

With these, I can make more maps that will hopefully be useful.

[Jamski]

You can upload images on Apolyton. Click "upload", between "my threads" and "members".

-Jam

[Enigma_Nova]

The button is as broken as the Shadow forum and as useful as the Public Hive forum.

It doesn't work.

[Jamski]

Nice simile. Its working for me. Look at those pictures above in this thread.

-Jam

[Enigma_Nova]

Well it ain't working for me...

[Jamski]

Perhaps you have to registered for x months? Ask MarkG, Ming or DanQ by PM, and they'll explain it. Or start a thread in Apolyton/Community forum.

-Jam