Proposed Rules

[BigFree]

I did section 3 and posted it at CDG. I will leave section 4 and 5 for another team to do.

[conmcb25]

Thanks BF, GREAT JOB!!!!!!!!!

[conmcb25]

Ok its done! Now we need to look it over and make sure we dont have any major complaints.

WE NEED TO RESPOND BY FRIDAY AT 2400 GMT That means I really need to know if there are any major gripes by 1800 GMT This friday

These rules were supposedly put together based on 7 or 8 of the ten teams responding to the initial proposal. So they have been edited to include additions and any rewrites I hope.

BF AND NYE, can I especially get you two to take a look at these? You guys have our corporate memory on the rules.

And BF I would like you to be the keeper of the rules or the Rules expert, whatever you want to call it for the game if you dont mind.

I really think we need one guy (at least) who is very familiar with the rules and can keep us out of trouble. Im hoping, BF, you can be that guy for us.

Well here it is, take a look and if there are any major disagreements please let me know, lets not nitpick this to death. Lets nit pick any show stoppers or anything we feel is really important.

Once we get this done we are just about ready to start (Just in time for the official patch I hope )

By playing or participating in the Intersite Demogame (IDG) as an individual or as a member of a team, you and your team agree to abide by all rules herein without exception and as understood by the Game Staff. Violation of this agreement is subject to expulsion from said game, games, tourneys, etc. without prior warning.


Regulating Out-of-Game Conduct

0.0 - Game Staff Authority

0.0.1 - Definitions

Intent: Many of the below rulings are based on the intent of a team or individual. Intent is determined by the Game Staff and is only decided after investigation.


0.1 - Team Memberships [b]
0.1.1 - Membership Roster

[b]Description: All teams are required to maintain a public listing of their membership. This list will include the name and city of the members, at a minimum.

Purpose: To help everyone know who is on what team and help discourage and prevent out-of-game espionage.

Verdict: Not posting or keeping the teams public listing up to date within 15 calander days is a violation of this rule.

Punishment Level: Once - Yellow, (verbal warning), Repeat – Yellow (written warning and apology)



0.1.2 - Allowed Memberships

Description: Each forum will be allowed to determine the requirements for membership of its team as it sees fit. However, a person may only be a member of one team at any given time. A double membership is automatically considered out-of-game espionage.

Purpose: To disallow the use of out-of-game espionage and prevent anything that resembles out-of-game espionage.

Verdict: Double membership is strictly prohibited and doing so is a violation of this rule.

Punishment Level: Red (Ejection – Personal or Team)



0.2 Switching Teams

0.2.1 - Switching Teams

Description: No team member is allowed to switch teams, until after their team is knocked out of the game, and this is with special restrictions as stated below.

Definition: Switching teams between the two games is allowed, provided that the person is on only one team at a time. Your team being knocked out of the current game makes you refugees, for the remainder of this game only.

Purpose: To minimize the opportunity and possibility of out-of-game espionage.

Verdict: Switching teams is a personal and team violation for both the individual who switched teams and the team who allowed him to switch. If a team reports that they did not know about the team switch, because of a different name or otherwise, it will be considered a personal offense.

Punishment Level: Red (Ejection – Personal and/or Team)


0.2.2 - Membership retention after Defeat

Description: Members of teams that were defeated in the current game are allowed to TEMPORARILY join the team that conquered them, if the team will have them. They may also join neighboring teams that they had contact with at the time of their defeat.

Definition: Neighboring does not mean specifically teams adjacent to them in game, more specifically it means teams they would have had the capability to travel to with their current technology. Temporarily changing teams means that when the current game is over the teams default back to where they were. If someone would like to switch teams at that point they may do so upon approval of the gaining team

Verdict: See 0.2.1 Switching teams for the verdict and punishment levels.


0.2.3 Refugees

Description: Upon becoming a refugee according to rule 0.2.1, refugees may join another team provided that their team had in-game contact with the team they wish to join or the team they wish to join has/had in-game contact with at least two teams that had in-game contact with the eliminated team. This is a temporary effect as described in rule 0.2.2. See that rule for more information.


0.3 - Out-of-Game Espionage

0.3.2 - Inadvertent or Accidental Espionage

Description/Procedures: All teams and their members are allowed to visit/view any other team's public access areas. An accidental viewing of a private or secure area due to a security hole or other bug/glitch in any software should not be considered a deliberate act of espionage provided the following conditions are met:
A) The members must have exited the private area immediately upon such discovery (it is up to each forum to clearly label its private areas.)
B) The member must privately inform his team leader of the inccident, the team leader must put the member in contact with one of the game staff and the member must give the game staff details about the incident (how it happened, how much was seen, etc.) The game staff will then inform the violated team of its security problem and which team violated their security and then determine what action if any should be taken against the member. Action to be taken should not exceed a 50-turn exclusion of the member from the game.



0.3.3 - Intentional Espionage

Description: Any out-of-game espionage in any form is strictly prohibited.

Definition: Trying to hack the secure team forum(s), continuously logging team chat channels, inserting moles in an opponent's team, hacking screenshots or savegame upload location, or any other action considered espionage as determined by the game staff

Verdict: doing any of the above as determined by the game staff is a violation of this rule.

Punishment Level: Red (Ejection)


0.4 Punishment

There are three possible punishment levels for breaking the rules. These are Yellow, Orange, and Red Offenses. All punishments for rule breaking will be determined by the game staff. The punishments listed with each rule/section are general guidelines, they are by no means a limit or restriction to the minimum/maximum punishment for a given offense.

The minimum punishment for an orange offense is forfeiture of one turn of play, which will be skipped by the game staff. Where rules explicitly state otherwise and for repeat offences the game staff will determine what a team will forfeit.

A team that commits a Red Offence will forfeit an enormous amount of turns, in upwards of 30 or 40 turns, they may even be ejected from the current game. A repeat offense is easily enough for they to be expelled from the entire IDG or ever playing on CDG again.

Team Punishments include:
Forfeiture of turns*
Forfeiture of tradable assets (Cities, money, etc.)
Forfeiture of untradable assets (units, population, etc.)
Ejection from the current game
Suspension From the rest of the IDG (to include the championship game)
Expulsion from ever playing on or with CDG again

*Note- When a turn is skipped, all production, science, taxes, building, and other things are reduced to the minimum possible producing levels. This may cause mass unhappiness or reduction in funds.

Personal Punishments include:
Suspension for # of turns as prescribed by the game staff
Ejection from the rest of the current game
Suspension from the rest of the IDG (to include the championship game)
Expulsion from ever playing on or with CDG again



In-Game Glitches/Bugs/Exploits

1.1 - Double-Duty Exploit

Description: No team or individual is permitted to 'allow' the capture of their bombardment or workers with the intent of executing a double-duty exploit.

Definition: Two or more teams capturing and recapturing non-combat units (Including bombardment units) with the intent to use them against a third party team simultaneously.

Purpose: To prevent two or more teams from sharing units and their abilities in the same turn for multiple turns.

Verdict: Using this exploit or any other exploit that allows Double-Duty through any means is a violation of this rule.

Punishment Level: Red (5-20 Turns)


1.2 - Resource Sharing Exploit

Description: No team or individual is permitted to share a single resource through the use of the Resource Sharing Exploit.

Definition: Two teams gifting and regifting a resource as well as cancelling it allow two teams to get use of the same resource that wouldn't be otherwise possible.

Purpose: A resource is to be used by one team per turn, no exceptions.

Verdict: Using this exploit or any other exploit that allows Resource Sharing through any means is a violation of this rule.

Punishment Level: First Offense/Turn (warning) - Yellow, Repeat Offense (2 or more turns) - Orange (2 + turns)


1.3 Leader Sacrifices

Description: No team or individual is permitted to barter, gift, or otherwise allow another team to kill-off any of its units with the intent of creating a leader for either team.

Definition: A team creating weak units or sending its out-of-date units after another team with the intent of helping that team create a leader.

Purpose: To prevent great leaders from appearing between two allied teams abusing the game system

Verdict: Using this exploit or any other exploit that allows Leader Sacrifices through any means is a violation of this rule.

Punishment Level: Once (1 Unit) – Orange (1 Turn), Repeat Offense - Red (2-10 Turns)


1.4 Worker Sacrifices

Description: No team or individual is permitted to barter, gift, or otherwise allow another team to kill-off any of its units using those units with the capture ability with the intent of creating a worker for either team.

Definition: A team creating weak units or sending its out-of-date units after another team with the intent of helping that team create workers.

Purpose: To prevent workers from appearing between two allied teams abusing the game system.

Verdict: Using this exploit or any other exploit that allows Worker Sacrifices through any means is a violation of this rule.

Punishment Level: Once (1 Unit) – Orange (1 Turn), Repeat Offense - Red (2-10 Turns)


1.5 War Happiness

Description: No team or individual is permitted to declare war on anyone with the intent of generating some happiness amongst its populace.

Definition: A team declaring war on another just to invoke a little extra happiness.

Purpose: To prevent this 'feature' from being exploited and retain the spirit of the game.

Verdict: Using this exploit or any other exploit that allows Happiness to be generated in such a way as to violate the purpose of this rule through any means is a violation of this rule.

Punishment Level: Once – Orange (1+ Turns), Repeat Offense – Red (1-20 Turns)


1.6 Invalid Map Trading

Description: No team or individual is permitted to barter, gift, or otherwise trade any sort of map, whether it be a screen shot, minimap, hand drawing, or any other 'picture' of the in-game map, mini-map, or embassy screenshot before the requisite tech is discovered. Verbal/text descriptions are allowed, but coordinates are not.

Definition: A team creating screen shots, drawings, or other depictions of any part of the in-game map before the requisite tech has been discovered.

Purpose: To prevent the use of outside game elements to break the spirit of the game by allowing maps to be traded before they are allowed in-game.

Verdict: Using this exploit or any other exploit that allows any map trading before the tech is discovered through any means is a violation of this rule.

Punishment Level: Once – Orange (1-5 Turns), Repeat Offense - Red (2-20 Turns)




1.7 - Exchange of Contact

Description: No team or individual is permitted to barter, gift, or otherwise trade any sort of contact information until the requisite tech is discovered. A simple statement to team 'Z' that you live next to team 'Y' is allowable so long as no transactions are made or brokered between the two.

Definition: A team trading anything for any location or contact information before allowed in-game.

Purpose: To prevent the use of outside game elements to break the spirit of the game by allowing contact and location information to be traded before they are allowed in-game.

Verdict: Using this exploit or any other exploit that allows any contact or location information trading before the tech is discovered through any means is a violation of this rule.

Punishment Level: Once – Orange (1-5 Turns), Repeat Offense - Red (2-20 Turns)


1.8 - Enjoining Teams

Description: No team or individual is permitted to barter, gift, or otherwise trade multiple cities with the intent of joining teams to destroy another team and keep both teams alive to survive to the end. If a team decides to drop out however, they are allowed to change

Definition: A team trading multiple cities in a short period of time, in order to allow one team anything for any location or contact information before allowed in-game.

Purpose: To prevent the use of outside game elements to break the spirit of the game by allowing contact and location information to be traded before they are allowed in-game.

Verdict: Using this exploit or any other exploit that allows any contact or location information trading before the tech is discovered through any means is a violation of this rule.

Punishment Level: Once – Orange (1-5 Turns and/or Cities), Repeat Offense - Red (5+ turns, Double cities given, and possible ejection, suspension, or expulsion).



Metagame Tricks

2.1 - Reloading...

Description: No team or indivdual is allowed to reload the game with the intent of altering the outcome of any event, combat, or other in-game result.

Definition: Someone reloading the game when something happens that they don't like and wish to change. Playing the turn in a different order to alter the outcome of said happenings.

Purpose: To prevent a team from replaying a turn until the most optimum outcome is achieved or otherwise increasing their odds of winning.

Verdict: Reloading the game or using any exploit or bug that allows altering the RNG outcome or replaying a turn through any means is a violation of this rule.

Punishment Level: Red (1-10 Turns)


2.2 - Save Manipulation

Description: No team or individual is permitted to use the PBEM savegames or other files to obtain information or alter any in-game element. This includes monitoring or altering memory while the game is loaded. Using MapStat is also prohibbited.

Definition:An individual scanning or monitoring loaded files into memory or altering a file can obtain location information and more, they can even alter in game data.

Purpose:To prevent the use of outside game elements to break the spirit of the game by allowing someone to outright cheat.

Verdict:Using these or any other methods that allows altering the in-game content through any means is a violation of this rule.

Punishment Level:Once - Automatic Expulsion


2.3 - Zoomed Loading

Description: No team or individual is permitted to have their settings set to have the game zoomed out when loading a PBEM savegame.

Definition:Loading the game when zoomed out can reveal information that you would not otherwise have access to.

Purpose:To prevent the gathering of information against the spirit of the game.

Verdict:Using this exploit or any other exploit that allows learning any information about another team that you would not be able to get through the in-game espionage system is a violation of this rule.

Punishment Level:Once - Red (1-10 Turns)


2.4 - Misleading through Renaming

Description: No team or individual is permitted to rename a unit or city with the intent of misleading or confusing opponents.

Definition:Cities can be renamed to names of tech or sums of gold or anything else in an effort to not trade what that opponent agreed to. Units can be renamed to other units and appear to be something else entirely.

Purpose:To prevent the misleading or confusion of another team through malicious use of in-game features.

Verdict:Using this 'feature' or any other feature or exploit that allows misleading or confusing another team is a violation of this rule.

Punishment Level:Once – Red (5-Expulsion and forfeiture of double what was not legally traded)

[conmcb25]

This was so long it NEEDED TWO POSTS!

Its kind of sad if you think about it

3. Game Mechanics tricks

3.1.1 - Fortify All

Description: No team or individual is allowed to use the “Fortify All” command on a stack of units that contain any units that have used up their movement points.

Definition:A team may get the effect of a unit being fortified prior to an attack when that unit should have not have been able to fortify itself because it had no movement points to do so. This is done by using the stack command “Fortify All.”

Purpose:To prevent the unfair use of combat tactics.

Verdict:Using this command on a stack of units that has one or more units that do not have any movement points left is a violation of this rule.

Punishment Level:Once - Red (1-5 Turns)


3.1.2 - Fortifying a boat/passenger

Description: Similar to 3.1.1, except now addressing sea vessels. The sea vessel also would enjoy increased visibility during the next turn. A team can move the vessels the full allotment of movement points then “wake” the passengers and give them then “Fortify all” command which fortifies the sea vessel as well. It is allowed to use the “Fortify All” command on a vessel or a stack of vessels that has movement points left before the command was issued.

Definition:A team may get the effect of a sea vessel being fortified prior to an attack when that vessel should have not have been able to fortify itself because it had no movement points to do so.

Purpose:To prevent the illegal use of having increased visibility.

Verdict:Using this command on a stack of vessels with passengers or a lone vessel with passengers that do not have any movement points left is a violation of this rule.

Punishment Level:Once – Red (1-5 Turns)


3.2.1 - Hitting F1/back-forward to change production


Description: It is possible to use F1 to go into city views and change production or rush items before a city has been reached in the pre-turn production queue.

Definition:This can result in tech-enabled units and Wonders being completed the very turn the tech is researched, or production to be changed in response to an enemy's actions (like Walls if a stack moves toward a specific city and not another).

Purpose:To prevent the unfair allocation of resources not intended to be used in a certain way on the previous turn and keep gameplay flowing within the spirit of the game.

Verdict:Using the pre-turn production queue at the beginning of a turn to change production or to rush builds in a city is a violation of this rule.

Punishment Level:Once - Red (2+ Turns)


3.2.2 - Hitting F1/back-forward for double tile usage

Usage of F1 or back - forward buttons in the city view during the pre-turn production queue can be used to use the same tile by 2 or more different cities in the same turn.

Description: It is possible to use F1 to go into city views and work force allocations before a city has been reached in the pre-turn production queue so that a tile can be used to used by 2 or more different cities in the same turn. .

Definition:This can result in the possibility of a bonus tile being “shared” by 2 or more cities.

Purpose:To prevent the unfair allocation of resources.

Verdict:Using the pre-turn production queue at the beginning of a turn to change production or to rush builds in a city is a violation of this rule.

Punishment Level:Once – Red (1-10 Turns)


3.3 Using GoTo/Auto-Explore/Auto-Workers to get extra movement


Description: The last team in the turn order can issue the “GoTo” command, and have a unit move twice before the next turn begins. This is very strong in war-time. Every Civ has that option, that's why it is stipulated that no one use go-to.
And it's not that you got extra movepionts with that, you only use the movepoints for the next turn early -> mean 2 turns in 1 and 1 you can not move the unit.
Similar results can be achieved with auto-explore and auto-workers.

Definition:This can result in the last team to play in a given turn, the ability to move their units twice before another team could move in between

Purpose:To prevent the unfair movement of units; especially during war time.

Verdict:Getting two moves out of a unit or units before you opponent can move through any means is a violation of this rule.

Punishment Level:Once - Red (5-10 Turns)


3.4 Chaining naval transports to quickly move land units across water

It is possible to wake a land unit at sea, and transfer it from one transport to another. Given enough ships, a chain can be created to instantaneously move units across bodies of water (by ending in port).

This is to be allowed

3.5 Teleporting units by abandoning or gifting cities

Description: A team can instantaneously transport units from any city back to their capital by simply disbanding it or gifting it to another team. This results in very weird strategy.

Definition:This can result in a Civ’s units being transported out of harms way or to a new war front.

Purpose:To prevent the unfair movement of units; especially during war time.

Verdict:Moving your units in this way or any other way that is against the spirit of the game as determined by the game staff is a violation of this rule.

Punishment Level:Once – Red (10-Expulsion)


3.6 Accepting a Peace Treaty from a Civ then immediately declaring war


Description: A team at war with another can accept the latter's Peace Treaty, then declare war afterward in order to eliminate War Weariness from that team. This results in a huge advantage if the peace-seeking team is not aware of the trick.


Definition:This can result in a team’s properly acquired War Weariness being shut off and the possibility for the other team to suffer from it should they redeclare war.

Purpose:To prevent unfairly using the games mechanics to negate or reverse the effects of War Weariness,

Verdicto not accept peace if your intention is to behave in a war-like manner, unless a determination by the game staff to fall within the rules of this ruleset dictates so. Any method to break war weariness in any such manner is a direct violation of this rule.

Punishment Level:Once – Orange (2-10 Turns), Repeat Offense - Red (5-Expulsion)


3.7 Staying at war to upkeep War Weariness but not actual fighting

Description: Being kept at war by a team with the intent of inflicting War Weariness, and the penalties that are associated with it.

Definition:This can result in a team’s War Weariness being applied and worsened when the team no longer wishes or is able to wage war against the other.

Purpose:To prevent unfairly using the games mechanics to increase, exaggerate, or prolong the effects of War Weariness when waging war is not a reasonable option as determined by the game staff.

Verdict:A team must accept a peace offer, within a reasonable amount of time (determined by the game staff), if war has not been waged or reasonably waged in a reasonable amount of time (all determined by the game staff)

Punishment Level: Once - Orange (1-5 turns and/or Forfeiture or funds), Red (5 – Expulsion)

4.1 Reputation and honor system

4.1.1 - Offical Treaties

All in-game treaties can be submitted to the game staff for an official record. All teams in the treaty must confirm the exact wording with the game staff for the treaty to be officially recorded.


4.1.2 - Distribution of Treaties

All offial treaties will kept private. The only exception to this is where a team in a treaty asks the game staff to send a copy of the treaty to another team.

Example

* Team A and Team B have a treaty, which they submit to the game staff for the official record.
* Team A believes that Team B has broken their treaty, and tell Team C of this.
* Team B believes they did nothing wrong and tells Team C this.
* Team A or Team B can ask the game staff to send a copy of the official treaty to Team C.
* Team C can now make an informed decision on who they believe.



4.2 Unknown exploits

4.2.1 - New Bugs/Exploits

The teams agree to abide by the rulings of the game staff should a new, previously unknown bug/exploit appear in the game.


4.2.2 - Exemption

Issues known by several people/teams in the ISDG are exempt from this rule. Ignorance of a known game feature by one team should not lead to discussion in the middle of the game of whether this is an exploit.

In essence, this says that any existing known issues can not be re-assessed once the game has begun. Only new bugs/exploits will be considered.


4.2.3 Disclosure of new bugs/exploits

Every team has to control its own actions and to look for bugs or game mechanics which could be defined as a bug or exploit. When a team finds such an mechanism (which is not known by other teams), they have to announce this mechanism directly in the public forums at the U.N.

The game staff will be responsible for facilitating a discussion (in either the public or private U.N. forums) and a vote on the issue (by the team captains).

The clock will be stopped whilst this is taking place.



4.3 - Fairness Pledge

Every team must agree to the fairness pledge before the game starts.



4.4 - Battle Log

Description: For all combats, teams must submit a log of what units attacked, retreated, died, won, etc. from each battle on that turn to the team they attacked. Including capturing units and cities.

Verdict:Failure to email a log to the game staff of all combat actions is a violation of this rule.

Punishment Level: Yellow (Warning), Yellow (Apology)


5. Turn Progression

5.1 Time allowed for a turn

Every team has a maximum of 24 real world hours to play its move and to send the save. This does not mean, that every team must use all 24 hours.


5.2 Extensions to time limits

In some cases a team is allowed to take more time for a move:

A) If the request is announced in time, which means before the requesting teams turn limit has expired, and if the game staff deem it reasonable.
OR
B) Technical problems, like a downed forum (verified by the game staff).

The Game Staff will determine how much extra time is appropriate for the situation, if any.

[Paddy]

well that is some read

[Kloreep]

First off, my vehement opinions: I would really like to see these addressed.

On section 0.4 (Punishment): I'm confused about this part of the team punishments:

Team Punishments include:
*snip*
Forfeiture of tradable assets (Cities, money, etc.)
Forfeiture of untradable assets (units, population, etc.)
*snip*

It seems they are assuming "tradable" assets would be forfeited to other teams. This would be horribly unbalancing, and how do you determine which team would get such a reward? I see two kinds of assets myself: Destroyable (units, cities, beakers; production can also be sabotaged though not flat-out destroyed) and non-destroyable (money, specific amounts of population; tile improvements would be untouchable on any one turn beyond a certain point). The non-destroyable simply are not an option for punishment unless we allow the admin to go in with an editor.

So, I suggest forfeiture of assets be reconsidered...




4.1 needs to be stripped out. This is just one bitter little guy (or does he actually have support for this?) trying to regulate in-game betrayal. This is ridiculous, though not as bad as stronger versions of this rule that have come through here. What next? We start keeping track of who killed whom? Who founded what city and who later took it? Madness. We try to maintain some realism through rules such as the map & contact laws, then turn around and regulate a hand of the admin reaching down and authenticating treaties. I am very strongly opposed to this and would like to see us kick and scream all the way to game start unless this is taken out.




4.2.2 looks like a hornet's nest to me. I would re-consider exempting every single thing a team may happen to know of from admin scrutiny. I think this should be softened in to an amnesty from retroactive rules (rules applying punishment for actions taken before the rule came in to effect). You can do it if it isn't against the law, but you cannot prevent it from being outlawed because you have already done it.



Next, my not-so-strong-or-important opinions:

Section 0.2 is a bit of a mess...

Here's my re-write (bolded parts are added by me; stricken parts are old language that needs to be taken out):

0.2.1 - Switching Teams

Description: No team member is allowed to switch teams, until after their team is knocked out of the game, and this is with special restrictions as stated below.

Definition: Switching teams between the two games is allowed, provided that the person is on only one team at a time. Your team being knocked out of the current game makes you refugees, for the remainder of this game only.

Purpose: To minimize the opportunity and possibility of out-of-game espionage.

Verdict: Switching teams is a personal and team violation for both the individual who switched teams and the team who allowed him to switch. If a team reports that they did not know about the team switch, because of a different name or otherwise, it will be considered a personal offense.

Punishment Level: Red (Ejection - Personal and/or Team)


0.2.2 - Membership retention after Defeat

Description: Members of teams that were defeated in the current game are allowed to TEMPORARILY join the team that conquered them, if the team will have them. They may also join neighboring teams that they had contact with at the time of their defeat.

Definition: Neighboring does not mean specifically teams adjacent to them in game, more specifically it means teams they would have had the capability to travel to with their current technology. Temporarily changing teams means that when the current game is over the teams default back to where they were. If someone would like to switch teams at that point they may do so upon approval of the gaining team When the first game is over refugees are free to switch to any other round 2-qualifying team that will have them, but are also free to remain on the team they fled to in round 1.

Verdict: See 0.2.1 Switching teams for the verdict and punishment levels.


0.2.3 Refugees

Description: Upon becoming a refugee according to rule 0.2.1, refugees may join another team provided that their team had in-game contact with the team they wish to join or the team they wish to join has/had in-game contact with at least two teams that had in-game contact with the eliminated team. This is a temporary effect as described in rule 0.2.2. See that rule for more information.

I don't get all the talk of temporary refugee asylum... once a team is eliminated in round 1, it is not going to be in round 2. There will never be anything for a refugee to go back to. So I have no idea why such a deal is made out of refugee immigration being described as "temporary." I think the above language is simpler and clearer.




Comparing 2.1 punishment to 2.2 punishment: I see no difference between intentional change of the game through reloading and intentional change of the game through save editing. Both should result in expulsion IMO. Though it might be hard to prove intent on a small enough, isolated enough reloading incident, which should be a lower penalty.




Error in 3.5:

Description: A team can instantaneously transport units from any city back to their capital by simply disbanding it or gifting it to another team. This results in very weird strategy.

AFAIK Disbanding a city does not teleport units inside it anywhere. Gifting is the only problem.




5.1 will need to be revisited fairly quickly as wars start and empires grow larger; unless the admins want to be handling multiple extension requests per turn later in the game. We may want to simply extend it to 36 hours right here and now.



And lastly, two comments:

1.8: The description cuts off.

4.4: I just want to comment that this will be a pain in the ass since it will need to be done from the perspective of the other team. But I would be willing to go along with it.

[Togas]

My god ... I deal with enough of this stuff at work to have to go home and sift through it for hours

I will try, though, but we DEFINATELY need a full-time rules expert/rep to the UN to argue this stuff for us and to advise us on the rules.

We're going to need a Team Lawyer.

And, no, I'm not all that interested in taking the job myself :/

--Togas

[BigFree]

I'm not looking forward to it either, but I will take a shot at it conmcb25 if and only if the all the Consuls wish it. Or if there's a Constitutional amendement making the position official by either havng the Consuls appointing one or having the Senate elect one.

I will then submit a propoal for changes based upon what our forum concensus is. If no one voices concerns for amendments to the rule, such as the amendment suggestions by Kloreep, then I will propose such amendments as they are made in this thread.
Let's get hoping. I need some answers, like yesterday.

[Octavian X]

Basically, I do agree with Kloreep's points. I don't know what the other consuls think (and, for the love of God, don't act on my individual words - someone might shoot me for that. ), but I'm actually for drawing the debate out a little longer if we can get those riddculous measures out.

[Hot_Enamel]

What Kloreep said...

Plus

3.5 Unless its different in C3C, disbanding a city, will not transport your units back to the capital. (Also mentioned by Kloreep)

4.2.2 I see no mention of Palace Jumping. I assume this rule means that it is "exempt"...ie legal.

5.2 Lets make allowances for major public holidays.... xmas day for example.
Maybe the yanks have an argument to include "Turkey eat'n Day".
Imagine a being in a major war, and having to do your turn within 24 hours during "Turkey Worship Day" when half your team is too drunk and/or too engorged to get of their couches and check the save.

[Togas]

BF -- could you please take a look at the rules, you have been our corporate knowledge on this issue and I really think we as a team need you to take a look. We need your help here BF!

I'm with Kloreep on his objections and I should have some of my own posted tomorrow if I can find some free time at work to do so.

I DO NOT think that it's realisticly possible for us to review all of these rules and agree to them by Thursday. Many of these rules are going to have to be debated. This is unreal.

My suggestion:

A rules committee be formed with a member from each team. They hash it out, agree to a set of rules, and then we start. If that's not possible then I suggest that we START and allow teams to hash these rules out as we play.

--Togas

[Togas]

Ok, my thoughts after a careful review of the rules:

0.1.1 - Membership Roster

Description: All teams are required to maintain a public listing of their membership. This list will include the name and city of the members, at a minimum.

not necessary. Bureaucratic hasstle. I especially object to the "city" part.

0.2.2 - Membership retention after Defeat

Description: Members of teams that were defeated in the current game are allowed to TEMPORARILY join the team that conquered them, if the team will have them. They may also join neighboring teams that they had contact with at the time of their defeat.

I agree with Kloreep's rewrite of this section. Please push that forward.

0.4 Punishment
...

Object to any turn forfeiture of more than 5 turns. At that point, you may as well expell a team. Orange should be 1-2 turns. Red should be 2-5 turns AND both should include the possibility of forfeiting disbandable assets.

Object to forfeiture of assets that cannot be disbanded.

Object to:

*Note- When a turn is skipped, all production, science, taxes, building, and other things are reduced to the minimum possible producing levels. This may cause mass unhappiness or reduction in funds.

The admins should not adjust ANYTHING during forfeited turns.

1.8 - Enjoining Teams

Description: No team or individual is permitted to barter, gift, or otherwise trade multiple cities with the intent of joining teams to destroy another team and keep both teams alive to survive to the end. If a team decides to drop out however, they are allowed to change

Definition: A team trading multiple cities in a short period of time, in order to allow one team anything for any location or contact information before allowed in-game.

This doesn't make any sense to me. There's two things going on here, one of which is joining two teams together by "saving" them ala GWT/GCA in ISDG #1. The other has to do with trading around cities for some sort of unusual benefit? And the word "enjoin" means to stop something from happening. This rule needs to be scrapped or rewritten.

4.1 Reputation and honor system

Object to this. This is absurd and unnecessary. The whole thing should be thrown out.

4.4 Battle Log

Should ONLY be required if GAME STAFF request it due to a suspected rules violation. Forcing us to keep these logs is going to be a big pain and I wouldn't be surprised if we made a mistake that got us into trouble because we were trying to rush through the logs/results.


And please add in H_E's rule "5.2" regarding allowances for public holiday.

--Togas

[Kloreep]

On 1.8: I believe this rule is intended to prevent someone who would by all rights have been eliminated from the first round and thus the second game from being saved by dint of their good relations with some other team. For example:
-Team A attacks Team B and is going to eliminate Team B
-But then Team C saves Team B by giving them a city on the other side of the continent
-Team C then eliminates Team A, preventing them from going to the next round, but Team B, who by all rights would have been eliminated, gets in to the next round simply because Team C liked them

[Paddy]

Sneaky Bastards

[BigFree]

I will put all this into coherent form when I get back from a few job interviews today. I will try to post it here for a bit before I post it at the UN to get a team concensus.

[conmcb25]

Originally posted by BigFree
I will put all this into coherent form when I get back from a few job interviews today. I will try to post it here for a bit before I post it at the UN to get a team concensus.

BF if you can handle this I would appreciate it, Im going to read, and then vote in some polls today.

But Im taking my kid to a Science Quest regional competition tomorrow and dont have time to colate all this info.

I would post it as:

We strongly object

We object

We are Ok with the rule but suggest this rewrite.

I can run the polls on sunday if thats what the group wants at the UN.

Thanks BF, I appreciate it.

[conmcb25]

The consuls concur with you being appointed to this position for the sake of brevity right now.

We can poll it and hold elections if you prefer to make it official and binding, I have no problem with that since I dont intend to become a "Hungry Man"

But right now for he sake of the team we need to get this done to the best of our ability so we hopefully have a coherent set of rules.

And I think most of us if not all of us know how important that is.

We need your help BF, Thanks for stepping up to the plate.

I concur with the notes above.

Also they are voting on a battle log today and tomorrow.

The mood seems to be swinging for a battle log to be kept for bttles and forwarded to the admin and possibly your opponent.

Since no one seems to have a problem with it here that i saw, i will probably vote for it.

I could run a 24 hour poll if you think its appropriate to do so.

What do you think.

Edit: I decided to just run the poll.

[conmcb25]

it is only for battles, not every move.

the full movement log was already voted down.

[BigFree]

Cool conmcb25, I will do my best. I just ask that the people who have problems with the current set of rules please provide input in the form of an amendment to the current rule along with their reasoning for such.

[Kloreep]

I suggest amending this:

4.1 Reputation and honor system

4.1.1 - Offical Treaties

All in-game treaties can be submitted to the game staff for an official record. All teams in the treaty must confirm the exact wording with the game staff for the treaty to be officially recorded.


4.1.2 - Distribution of Treaties

All offial treaties will kept private. The only exception to this is where a team in a treaty asks the game staff to send a copy of the treaty to another team.

Example

* Team A and Team B have a treaty, which they submit to the game staff for the official record.
* Team A believes that Team B has broken their treaty, and tell Team C of this.
* Team B believes they did nothing wrong and tells Team C this.
* Team A or Team B can ask the game staff to send a copy of the official treaty to Team C.
* Team C can now make an informed decision on who they believe.

To this:

.

On a more helpful note, I suggest gutting 4.2.2 and replacing it with this:

4.2.2 - Bringing up Rules Mid-Game, and Exemption from Punishment

Issues known by several people/teams in the ISDG are not exempt from this rule; if a team knows of a contentious issue, they should bring it forward before the game begins, and if they do not, it is subject to discussion in the middle of the game. However, issues that have been brought up for discussion and then been either allowed to go on, restricted, or outright outlawed may not be brought up a second time.

If an action is ruled an exploit after the game has begun, teams may not be punished for having used that exploit before the rule against it was made.

[BigFree]

Ok, I have made a list of amendments and posted it at the UN. Take a look at it and let me know what you think.

[Octavian X]

Looks pretty good, BigFree. The color coding system was a good touch.

[Togas]

EXCELLENT work at the UN, BigFree!

I also really like the color coding system you used. Makes it very clear.

--Togas