Love the Byzantines: Seafaring-Scientific good combo to get those scientific leaders

Artifex · December 31, 2003, 16:36

The scientific trait has really paid off for me in my current game as the Byzantines. The Scientific Trait has really moved up in power since PTW.

The Byzantines are nice because they are scientific and Seafaring (they start with Alphabet). This means you will be first to writing, philosophy...then literature (for free).

Then with all the extra contacts I have the science lead. I was first to research most techs. I did have a good starting position (2 cows) and got pyramids in 1830 BC (rushed by SGL).

First SGL with Philosophy, next one with Republic, then again with Theology. Rushed Pyramids, then Sun Tzu's, Then I am saving up my 3rd one for Bachs Cathedral. I have prebuilt Sistines with about 12 turns to go and I am the only power with Theology (so I'll save the leader for Bachs).

Loving the Byzantines their traits work very well together. The contacts usually assure you will be forst or tied for first in tech then you can research many techs first..thus giovign you SGLs. I am currently 1st in Pop, Land, Culture, and science. But those pesky English are looking pretty strong on the other continent, followed by Portugal and The Netherlands

Plotinus · December 31, 2003, 17:23

I love these guys! I'm in the middle of a game with them right now, and I too am doing very well technologically.

But the killer thing is the Dromons. Amazing! I had thought that these sounded uninteresting at best - souped up Galleys, well, forgive me if I try out those Mayans first. But I'm a convert now. The Dromons are great at winning any naval battles you may be engaging in, but really, the killer is the *land bombardment* ability. This is something you cannot otherwise do until the end of the Middle Ages, and it really changes matters, especially as the enemy probably doesn't have any decent navy to stop you sitting there taking pot shots at their land. Plus, of course, the Dromon bombard strength is stronger, in relation to the strength of most contemporary units, than that of the Frigate.

But the best thing about these, I think, is the fact - which I didn't really appreciate before - that they are awesome warships for the reasons given above *and* carry troops. Frigates don't carry troops. Neither do Battleships. Yet these things are their equivalent in ancient times. You can use them to ferry your troops over, as per normal Galleys. But then those very same ships turn round and start bombarding the enemy, softening them ready for the land troops to whup 'em. It's this combination of abilities that makes the Dromons so handy. Admittedly, I'm playing an Archipelago map (which I really like), so that makes them all the handier (together with my Great Lighthouse...). But I think even on Pangea (never played one of those, probably never will) they should be surprisingly useful - imagine sending these things along the coast to batter the enemy, for example. They really offer a new dimension to warfare an age and a half before it's normally possible at all.

Incidentally, the weapon with which the Dromons are armed - Greek Fire - is a famous historical mystery. No-one really knows what it was or how it worked, although it presumably involved somehow spraying flaming oil at the enemy, making it the medieval equivalent of napalm. It was Greek Fire that allowed the Byzantines to prevent the Arabs streaming over the Mediterranean in a spanking new fleet and invading Europe that way, and it was a kind of military Holy Grail for alchemists and suchlike for centuries... Now I know why!

Artifex · December 31, 2003, 17:43

I am liking the droman, it is far from being a weak or useless UU like the F-15, but since it is a ship many will undervalue it. The bombard is nice and the ship just looks damn cool, especially when it attacks and fire shoots out.

Cerbykins · December 31, 2003, 21:20

The only doubt I have here is the latter part of the title...even on Chieftain, you'll hardly be streaming in the SGLs

Seriously though, this is nice info to have when 'random' finally takes me to the Byzantines

Sarxis · January 1, 2004, 02:31

Heck yeah! Seafaring alone is killer for early tech research (killer in the Good way).

steven8r · January 1, 2004, 12:47

So far, I've not played as the Byzantines--only against them. As enemies, they are always up on techs and are fairly formidable. And yes, those Dromans look really cool.

However, as an enemy, the Byzantines are among my first 'targets'. Have to hit 'em quick to keep 'em from becoming too powerful.

Steven

The Hack · January 1, 2004, 14:00

I played 3 games as the Greeks, Monarch level. Byzanteens were tops in Culture and Science. She is treachourous! The first she started a gang bang(I should of gave her the gold she asked for). The same turn she inlisted the Romans and Egyption for a three front war. My only loss with C3C, my mistake trying to build too much at the neglect of a army (Two earlier trying to get a feel when I bought it). The next game she blew a deal the turn I made it ruining my reputatin. The third game same thing, plus a sneak attack. A long meat grinder war, finally I kick her off the contenant to a one tile Island sue for peace and rush buy culture to move me above the 65% territory for domination win. The turn my boundaries expand a city reverts back with huge culture boundaries. The next turn another.
Time for Revenge I decide to play Rome, hope for Iron and her next to me. Great, her on a penninsula and Constanople five tiles away with no Iron. I took all her cities and got the Pyramids, the Oracle, 1 Ivory, 3 furs, and 2 Armies loaded with Legioneers,which got a Infantry later which were useful the whole game.
After reading this thread I think I'll try the Byzanteens next. Probably been under valuing the power of the Sea-trait. I didn't realize the value of the UU and only ever seen them in the Middle age scenerio.

ducki · January 1, 2004, 14:07

On the power of Seafaring, I can't recommend Spain highly enough. Ignore the UU, you should get a wonder GA by then anyways.

Tall Stranger · January 2, 2004, 10:11

I'm playing the Byzantines on an epic game now, and I also have found them very enjoyable. My only complaint is that, while dromons are fun and very useful, they make it a bit difficult to trigger your GA. I was all set to enter my GA (in Republic, most of my city tiles ready), so I declare on the French and start clobbering them with AC (first time I've gotten SoZ!). Problem: the "vaunted" French navy disappeared! (How's that for realism

)

I guess it makes sense, since galleys are no match for these thing on the open sea, but it does become a bit tricky to get anyone to fight a dromon. Finally, near the end of the war, Joan set forth a galley. I tracked it for a turn to make sure it was nowhere near a port, then bombarded it one turn and sunk it the next.

habib_crayen · January 2, 2004, 19:39

Hail.
I used to lead Turkey, but now with C3C, has appeared Byzance. i was suprised by Byzantine dromons, which bombing order is very effective. I had only harbors, indeed, i started on Carthago setting place. spain atatcked my harbours with ground units, a the beginning of the game. They attacked with veterans, and my dromons parked in towns attacked them before their turn. They lost 70 % of life nearly at each bombing. Dromons are more powerful than ground units like catapults... and they are the kings of see during dark age.Those two nations are very interesting, they got a great potential...

Cerbykins · January 3, 2004, 03:40

Just be careful if you bomb the coasts, stick to the grasslands and plains

It would appear, more mountainous/defensive terrain is harder to bomb in general.

Donegeal · January 3, 2004, 04:22

Hmmm... Play Byzantine.... build the Great Lighthouse.

5 move Dromons (Ancient era offensive bombarding transport)

An unbalancing unit in the hands of a human (most anyways).

FrustratedPoet · January 3, 2004, 06:03

Quote:

Originally posted by Plotinus
The Dromons are great at winning any naval battles you may be engaging in, but really, the killer is the *land bombardment* ability. This is something you cannot otherwise do until the end of the Middle Ages, and it really changes matters, especially as the enemy probably doesn't have any decent navy to stop you sitting there taking pot shots at their land. Plus, of course, the Dromon bombard strength is stronger, in relation to the strength of most contemporary units, than that of the Frigate.

But the best thing about these, I think, is the fact - which I didn't really appreciate before - that they are awesome warships for the reasons given above *and* carry troops. Frigates don't carry troops. Neither do Battleships. Yet these things are their equivalent in ancient times. You can use them to ferry your troops over, as per normal Galleys. But then those very same ships turn round and start bombarding the enemy, softening them ready for the land troops to whup 'em. It's this combination of abilities that makes the Dromons so handy.

I agree completely. Dromons are not only a powerful UU if used in the right way (the right kind of map helps), but they're also really good fun.

habib_crayen · January 3, 2004, 09:01

Sure...

Theseus · January 6, 2004, 21:31

Quote:

Originally posted by Artifex
First SGL with Philosophy, next one with Republic, then again with Theology. Rushed Pyramids, then Sun Tzu's, Then I am saving up my 3rd one for Bachs Cathedral. I have prebuilt Sistines with about 12 turns to go and I am the only power with Theology (so I'll save the leader for Bachs).

Going back to Artifex' opening post... I think this is sorta the key right here.

SCI and SEA?

If you don't get to Philosophy first, uh, you might want to try another game.

And with Dromons?

From there, whether as builder or warmonger, you should be able to wrap up the game.

It's almost too much.

Artifex · January 7, 2004, 16:25

I think the Byzantines are overpowered and I am not playing them because it is kinda boring to be honest. I am trying other seafaring civs now. I'm going to play around with the english some. Seafaring-commercial is redundant but the english have a coolness factor and I never played them much. My main worry is collosus automatically triggers thier GA very early so I will have to skip that wonder when I play them.

Vikings seem maybe too powerful too with the berserk so I don't play them much either.

Kuciwalker · January 7, 2004, 16:50

My only beef is that my Dromons upgrade to Caravels. They should upgrade to Frigates, dammit

vmxa1 · January 7, 2004, 19:28

Quote:

Originally posted by skywalker
My only beef is that my Dromons upgrade to Caravels. They should upgrade to Frigates, dammit

I think I would prefer it this way. Frigates are dead ended, caravels are not and can become transports.

Theseus · January 7, 2004, 21:40

Quote:

Originally posted by Artifex
Vikings seem maybe too powerful too with the berserk so I don't play them much either.

HEATHEN!!

Seriously, other than being SEA and of course the power of Berserks, Scandy sorta sucks.

Myrddin · January 10, 2004, 17:02

Byzantines got me to Philosophy first, free tech Republic, AND 2 SGLs => 2 wonders trigging a golden age

One of the best turns ever in Civ

Kuciwalker · January 10, 2004, 22:12

Quote:

I think I would prefer it this way. Frigates are dead ended, caravels are not and can become transports.

Actually, Frigates upgrade to Destroyers now

As do Ironclads.

Plotinus · January 12, 2004, 03:18

Quote:

Originally posted by skywalker

Actually, Frigates upgrade to Destroyers now

Are you *sure* about this? I tried to do this in my current game and it wasn't happening. The Civilopedia entry for the Frigate mentions no upgradeability.

chequita guevara · January 12, 2004, 12:06

Boy howdy. I'm playing the Byzants right now and I'm having one of my best games ever, and it's mostly a land game where the dromons don't even come in to use.