Ducki Does C3C at Emperor

[ducki]

I'm sure you guys are tired of hearing me gush, but I had to try it on my own once, after a couple of restarts I got some promising looking terrain. Imagine my surprise when I settled and those game showed up.

Initially I chopped and irrigated one of them, but couldn't get the shield output to work out, so I tried mining it instead...
Viola! a 6-8-8-8 pump.
Golly-gee-willikers, Wally, this sure is neat!

Edit: Ignore everything else not pertaining to pumpness - this was just an attempt to create a pump. I'm abandoning it as I type.

[Harovan]

Good job. Now if you chop the game forest near Elephantine and irrigate it, and build a granary instead of a temple, you can make a 3 turn worker factory out of it. With two cities like this you can set all other cities on maximum production at minimum growth, building units and improvements and letting them grow controlled to the happiness limit by adding cheap workers.

[Dominae]

Good good! You've got the basics down pat. Now: want to know how you could do better?

1. There are 8 Shields left on Thebes' Settler build, the city is currently producing 8 Shields per turn and grows next turn. This means you will "waste" 2 Shields when the Governor assign the new Laborer to the Forest tile. You'll never see any of this happen, mind you, but trust me, it would.

To be more efficient, just take a Laborer off one of the Bonus Grassland tiles (preferably the one just South of Thebes so that the Barracks city down there can use it), and put it on the lake. You then squeeze out an extra Commerce, and free up a few more precious Shields for another city.

2. There is actually enough Food for two pumps (4-turn Settler, 2-turn Worker) with that starting location. Do you see how?

If you put Irrigation on both the Game tiles, you have 3 tiles at +4 per turn, two of which can be shared between Thebes and Elephantine. If Thebes works two of these tiles one turn, it gets +6 Food per turn; if it works only one, it gets +4 Food per turn. That adds up to 10, too, just like 5+5. The same applies to Elephantine. By constantly switching one irrigated Game the two cities, you get maximal growth potential out of your land.

Yes, this requires a lot of micromanagement. But the potential for a Settler pump and a Worker pump is IMO just too good to pass up.

(Edit: Something tells me you were halfway to this solution on your own, as there's Irrigation heading up toward those Game tiles.)


Dominae

[steven8r]

WOW! Great Thread!

I'm still not sure that I have achieved Ducki's understanding--more like 'the unenlightened' staring at the sun. But I think I'm understanding the concepts--just need to start applying them.

Ducki, as for charts, etc. Check-out the Files Forum for THIS thread. It's got the info that you need.

Thanks Dominae and Sir Ralph and others for your patience in explaining to Ducki, which alows yet others to learn from your collective wisdom.

Steven

[ducki]

Ok, let's see if I get this.
Irrigate the Wheat and both Game tiles for 4f, 0s each.
Thebes -
Begin Size 4, Grow in 2 turns.
Turn 1: Work Wheat(4,0) and game(4,0) and 2 Mined Bonus Grasslands((2,2)x2) plus the city tile(2,1) for a total of +6f and +5s
Turn 2: Work Wheat and 3 MBGs and the city tile for a total of +4f and +7s
Running total: +10f, +12s
semi-pre-Turn 3: Growth Happens, Governor defys laws of physics and creates shields out of nothing pretending he hunted them down in the forest. +2s
Turn 3: Work Wheat and Game and 3 MBGs and city tile for a total of +6f, +7s
Running total: +6f, +21s (?)
Turn 4: Work Wheat and lake and 3 MBGs for a total of +4f, +7s
Running total: +10f, +28s (?)
semi-pre-Turn 5: Growth Happens, Governor defys laws of physics and creates shields out of nothing pretending he hunted them down in the forest. +2s
Grand total: 30 shields in 4 turns.

Now, for Elephantine. I need 10 food and 10 shields in 2 turns(once I have a granary, of course). The food is easy(ha! it is now, anyway! ) if I just reverse the order of +6f and +4f against Thebes. I only grow once, so I only get 2 free shields, right? So I need 8 shields in 2 turns.
If I finish the Temple and let the border jump, I can do it with 2 food laborers and 2 shield laborers, bouncing back and forth between size 4 and 5 by mining the Bonus Grassland and one other grassland. If I skip the temple, I need to be size 5 and have 2 food gatherers and 3 shield gatherers with three mined grassland.
(Edit: I'm thinking bigger is better, for the extra commerce, especially this close to the capital. Unfortunately there's no river and no high commerce tile like in Thebes for the between turns.)

Did I get it right? I think I did, but I don't have time to play it out.
Eyes getting heavy.
Say goodnight Gracie.

[Dominae]

That's exactly right, ducki! Now you need to train yourself so that it becomes second nature...



The only thing you're missing in the analysis above is the Corruption calculation in your Worker-pump city; you'll lose one Shield when you get to about 5 or 6...just when the "free" Forest Shields come in (those Shields are not really free, since they're affected by Corruption). Something to look out for, lest you be left with 9/10 Shields in your Worker build.

semi-pre-Turn 3: Growth Happens, Governor defys laws of physics and creates shields out of nothing pretending he hunted them down in the forest. +2s

Dominae

[Arrian]

Behold what you have wrought, Ducki, and be afraid.

You have crossed over my tolerance threshold for micromanagement (in SP. In one of the MP demogames, I'd probably be up for it - so much time between turns) into the Dominae zone. Just kiddin' Dom. That's why you're better than I am.

Everyone has their limit(ations).

-Arrian

[ducki]

Oh, like I said earlier, I'll probably play most games at Monarch like you, but I do want to become as least passable at Emperor and it seems that pumps are an invaluable tool there.

One upside I've found to the tile-working MM required on a pump - no, really, there is one! - is that if you are going to the city screen every turn to make sure your people are working the right squares, it's much easier to remember to look at their faces, hence making it just a tad harder to miss out on happiness problems.

I really need to get one of those smiley-badge graphic mods.

@Dom: I'd totally forgotten about waste/corruption. So in this case, it seems like finishing the Temple to get the border-bump so I can mine the BG and have 1 buffer shield is actually a good idea? Or is there a different place I could have settled that would get me both the BG and the forest and both game? I don't see it, but that doesn't mean it's not there. Would plopping a city over in that direction possibly net me that one BG tile I need without "wasting" time on a temple?

@steven8r: Thanks for the link. I may just have to whip out a little app that let's you pick tile attributes and worker improvements and let it spit out the value. Or maybe let you do a whole 21-tile area. If nothing else, working with the values like that might hammer them into some sticky area of my brain so it doesn't take me so long to figure these out. Hmmm....I wonder if there's a way to slurp a given city area out of a save file automagically so you don't have to imput all the base info. Hmmmm....

[furrykef]

Hmm...I think this might be a good use for the editor...maybe use it to make up situations to test out stuff like this in a controlled manner, so I don't have to wait until I actually come across something obvious like cattle on grassland with a river with some shielded grassland by chance, and then be sure to not screw it up.

I'll be sure to do that before I play my next game...test out all the variations...

- Kef

[ducki]

I could always look for that Egypt 4000BC sav and you could practice on the original thread save and that one. Sure, you've already got an idea what to do, but thinking you know what to do and actually doing it are not quite the same - it was much harder implementing the pump than just repeating/analyzing what I'd been taught.
Much harder than I thought it would be, especially since Dom had clearly detailed the tile improvements.

[steven8r]

I'm assuming (with all the responsibilities that come with assumptions) that this MicroManagement strategy is for "Standard Production."

Does this method work when "Accelerated Production" is enabled?

Thanks,

Steven

[Rhothaerill]

Originally posted by steven8r
I'm assuming (with all the responsibilities that come with assumptions) that this MicroManagement strategy is for "Standard Production."

Does this method work when "Accelerated Production" is enabled?

It does, just in half the time. Under AP all builds as well as city growth are halved. A +5fpt means 1 turn growth (EDIT: With a granary and all the other particulars of a regular settler pump ) and a settler only costs 15 shields under AP.

[Enriquillo]

These awesome starts make mp so unfair, I just played one vs a friend.
He has much more civ experience, but I'm a seasoned mp player in several games.
I got my capital set up as a 4 turn settler factory, he was faster in his first 4 cities, but after that I doubled his city count fairly fast.
When he finally reached 8 cities, I had 22 and was killing him with 9 free Ancient Cav, hehe.
All the while my capital had just been churning out settlers every 4 turns, with the occasional 2 turn worker.

CIV3 is in imo the ultimate SP game, it's just not suited for MP due to the unfair starting positions, cow and ivory vs nothing anyone?

[Theseus]

Originally posted by CerberusIV
I beelined Philosophy and got it first, trading Alphabet and Writing for the early techs along the way. Mapmaking was the most expensive and useful free tech I could take so I did. THEN I got a scientific leader from it!

Sorry for sidetracking (catching up on a lot all at once), but this is the first I've seen this reported... one can get an SGL from the free Philosophy tech?

[ducki]

Theseus, I sidetracked this thread long long ago with my obsession with the pumps.

On that note, for those that want to practice, here's the 4000BC sav from the Egypt screenie above. I moved my settler to free up the Bonus Grassland and there was only one direction that allowed me to work the wheat from the get-go, which fortunately also put the game in range, easing my worker anxieties for the first few turns quite a bit.

This one and the thread-starting save are both great practice for pump setups, at least for this young grasshopper.
Both "easily" accomodate a capitol 4-turn settler pump and a second city 2-turn worker pump.

Enjoy!

P.S. This one's at Monarch, the original is at Emperor.

[Theseus]

Originally posted by ducki
No matter, I currently and raping and pillaging the impudent Aztecs with Knights and Cavalry, grabbed his GLib city, picked up Education for free and am about to open a can of Black-hole-dark on Maya. I've spent the Aztec War years building nothing but Cav from my 4(?) barracks towns and nothing but Musket and Cannon/Treb from my non-barracks towns(between border-holding culture and happiness builds). All this during a Leo's triggered GA - confused me for turns, then I remembered I'd captured Pyramids and Mausollos from Brennus. Duh.

Anyway, this start is a good step up from Monarch - don't _plan_ on any wonders if you're new to Emperor, but hope for them. I'll try to remember to take a screenie and post a current save so Theseus can see how far I've come.

[heavy mechanical breathing]

You are my son, Ducki.

[/End heavy mechanical breathing]

[ducki]

I knew you'd get a kick out of that. It still feels a bit weird at first, but eventually it's habitforming. I mean, how can you not like a stack of cannon so big that you just fortify all but one so you can wake them up when you get your cavalry and muskets across the continent?

Unfortunately I sidetracked more than the thread and will just have to start again. This time, though, it'll be more comfortable.

[Theseus]

I'll put this up in Must Read in a little bit... I have to figure out how to make the link go to the right post in the discussion of Pumps.

I've been a way a little bit, so just caught up on this thread... great stuff, guys.

[ducki]

It can wait, Theseus. If I don't gather all the good stuff in one place in a week, you can use the "link" link at the top of the relevant post(s), but, as much as I like attention, I'd rather try to compile it into a more focused format with a link back to here for those that prefer to read all the gories.

Come to think of it, I don't really like attention.

[ducki]

I didn't think it would work until I got the irrigation to that plains(or mined the other grassland) but with an extra step of Micro-management, this exact tile improvement arrangement can generate 4-turn settlers. For those that are playing along at home, "per turn" when speaking of settler pumps should be read to mean "per turn average".
This one depends on the "new pop-growth forest shields" though and you must micromanage both size 5 turns. No safety net here if the governor goes on holiday or decides to adhere to the laws of physics.

This is fun, in a puzzle-solving sort of way. I always was a sucker for Encyclopedia Brown.

If anyone else wants the 4000BC sav let me know. If I'm the only one playing the "build a pump" game, it's still a fun game and good practice.

[Theseus]

Originally posted by ducki
This is fun, in a puzzle-solving sort of way. I always was a sucker for Encyclopedia Brown.

Second Battle of Bull Run. Red flag in front of a dog.

EB ROCKS!

(I truly brought up EB with my fiancee this evening)

[ducki]

When my wife had my little prince, my mom dug up and delivered my old EB hardback collection(mising one book) from when I was 9 or so.

[furrykef]

Originally posted by Theseus
Sorry for sidetracking (catching up on a lot all at once), but this is the first I've seen this reported... one can get an SGL from the free Philosophy tech?

Getting Philosophy is the most reliable way to get an SGL, it seems to me. Another reason Philosophy is a bit too strong.

- Kef

[Theseus]

Kef, is that confirmed somewhere then? The free tech can generate an SGL?

[ducki]

If so, ToE just got even stronger. Can you imagine the thrill of getting two free techs and then a super-lucky RNG for two leaders?

[steven8r]

I have yet to get a SGL. I've played several epic games and have been the first to several techs--including Philosopy a couple of times. I've even managed the ToE--still haven't seen SGL. :'(

I don't think anything's "overpowered"
(except, perhaps the 4-turn Settler Pump)

Steven

[ducki]

I don't know of anyone that doesn't badly want ToE so they can slingshot to Hoover. It's just so strong that everyone does it. When everyone does it, it's overpowered.

At least that's my definition. Or rather, an interpretation of my definition.

[furrykef]

Originally posted by Theseus
Kef, is that confirmed somewhere then? The free tech can generate an SGL?

I wouldn't say it's confirmed (EDIT: now I would; see next post), I just note that I often get an SGL upon hitting Philosophy. That's hardly a confirmation especially since I've only completed the beeline about 5 times so far.

It would be hard to check for sure, because you can't see if you got an SGL before you get the second tech (I think, anyway). If somebody gets two SGLs upon reaching Philosophy, that'll be a dead giveaway...then again there might be a hard limit against getting more than one SGL on the same turn. (If there isn't, there probably ought to be.)

Maybe I'm just lucky when I get SGLs for Philosophy, but unless they hardcoded it as a special case (which, if they did, they haven't mentioned...but then, their documentation sucks), I don't see why the Philosophy tech can produce an SGL and the bonus tech with it can't. Though they may have had the foresight to code it in, I don't know.

- Kef

[furrykef]

I am happy to report that I found a way to confirm that the bonus tech after Philosophy can generate a SGL. My solution was simple. I simply used the editor to make every advance give a bonus tech. Well, this worked strangely because you start with two techs, so starting the scenario automatically gave me everything (without even asking me what to research next for each advance), and no SGLs (but I did have CPU opponents at the time, which may have been the problem). So I just edited it so Bronze Working and Alphabet (the starting advances of the Greeks, who are Scientific) didn't give free techs, and played the Greeks with no rival civs. I researched Pottery, which allowed me to get every advance. I ended up with 3 SGLs, thus confirming that the bonus techs can generate SGLs.

Here's a screenshot of right after the mega-advance:


I have also attached the .biq I created just to prove it definitively. All you have to do is research an advance and just hit Enter a bunch of times.

Firaxis: the editor is overpowered.

- Kef

[Dominae]

Thanks for the test, furrykef!