Ducki Does C3C at Emperor

[Dominae]

The best thing to do with that many Cattle (that I can think of) is to produce a Settler ASAP, build a lot of Workers, then work to set up two pumps simultaneously.

I would place that early Settler NW-NW of the capital. This gives you a two 4-turn Settler-pumps or, better, a 4-turn Settler-pump and a 2-turn Worker pump. That leaves on Cattle unaccounted for...it would be used by a third city for whatever you like (maybe more Settlers).

The key to working this out just right is knowing how many Workers to build before you start on the Granary. Not an easy problem.


Dominae

[Dominae]

ducki, if you're really having trouble finding a game without so many Cattle (yeah right), here's one for you:

[Dominae]

Save:

[ducki]

Thanks Dom, I'll put that in my queue. Right now I'm trying MZO's BC-VII and getting my butt handed to me.

[vmxa1]

Cattle on plains, wow, I was just wondering if that could occur. I could not recall if I had seen that or not. I knew wheat could be on grass and plains.

[ducki]

Hey, Dom - NW-NW of Entremont is a mountain.
Did you mean W-NW(4-7) or N-NW(8-7)? I'm thinking W-NW(4-7), otherwise the second city only gets to work that one cow, which irrigate I think is 3-2 with the penalty, so you'd only be +4fpt.
I guess I answered it myself, but just wanted to be sure. W-NW so you have both the grass cow and a plains cow even though I think you do not get the city-tile bonus. I never can tell just by looking whether a tile is riverside or not.I have to right-click and check for a Gold bonus.

So, W-NW, between the mountain and the bonus grass?
Irrigate all the cows giving Town 2 +5fpt from 1 grass and 1 plains cow and the Capitol +6fpt from 1 grass, 1 plains and city-tile, allowing you to mine one of the plains?

Of course, if the second city-site is actually riverside, there's not much point irrigating that plains cow and you get nothing by mining it, so you can save worker-turns by just roading it and leaving it as 2-2-2. (Edit) In fact, the capitol is in the same boat. You could save, IIRC, 3 worker turns by not irrigating the plains cow and just road it, since you get the city-tile's bonus food. Or you could irrigate it and mine the grass cow, getting you 4 "extra" shields per settler, allowing you to work the Fish some for extra commerce, no?

Or have I simply confused myself and anyone trying to follow along?

[DrSpike]

Originally posted by Arrian
I'm not saying one couldn't nab the Pyramids.

I just usually don't bother investing in it.

Early granary = 60 shields. This can be up and running pretty fast. You're pumping (sorry, not sure about THAT image) quite early. And often . With the right terrain, 2 or even 3 core pump cities, each requiring a 60-shield investment, probably beats out the Pyramids in terms of the effect on early game REX and consolidation.

The Pyramids requires devoting a powerful city to producing 400 shields (in other words, 40 turns of a 10spt city) early in the game. Instead, that city could punch out a granary and start contributing to your REX.

I don't know... I admit that I may have this wrong, but I often feel that the Pyramids aren't worth the investment of building yourself.

edit: if, however, I was to find a high-production city nearby that wasn't pump-capable (say a city with a bundle of bonus grassland, but no bonus food sources), that city could clearly take a shot at the Pyramids without really interfering with my REX.

What I'm on about is the idea of using a pump-capable city on wonder building early in the game. If that's not an issue, then hell, no problemo.

I wasn't going to post in this thread but I have to to point out how on the nose this post really is, since Arrian is being characteristically modest. Using that start to build the pyramids is highly questionable no matter what the level. What is more as to the general point made I completely agree that the pyramids gets used too much. It's a great wonder, one of the best, but even bearing that in mind the onus IMO should always on the player to justify why they are spending 400 crucial early shields on what is mostly a crutch. I say mostly because there are of course exceptions, one of which Arrian also gives.

And don't get me started on using 400 shields on the GL with that start.

[Dominae]

Originally posted by ducki
Hey, Dom - NW-NW of Entremont is a mountain.

Ah, that should be NE-NE. Capital uses one Grassland Cattle, second city uses two Plains Cattle. That leaves one Grassland Cattle for some third city.


Dominae

[Dominae]

Originally posted by Doc
I wasn't going to post in this thread but I have to to point out how on the nose this post really is, since Arrian is being characteristically modest. Using that start to build the pyramids is highly questionable no matter what the level.

Care to demonstrate why? I know it's tough on Sid, but I have yet to hear an argument why it's less efficient on lower difficulty levels (where you're more likely to grab it).


Dominae

[Arrian]

Well, for my part, like I said I'm not sure of it, but my feeling is that using a +5fpt capable city on the Pyramids may harm your REX, when compared to building a granary and using the city as a settler/worker pump. In this particular case, since you have 2-3 possible pumps there, I guess that might not matter.

Would you build granaries anywhere if you were planning on getting the Pyramids? I probably wouldn't, since the Pyramids will provide them for free later. But that means that your initial pop growth and therefore expansion is slowed. It will speed up later, once the Pyramids are complete, yes, but the earlier you start up that pop power boost the better.

The only way to know is to play it out, once with my normal granary-fed REX, and once trying for the Pyramids, and see how it goes.

-Arrian

[ducki]

I never thought of it, but 400 shields is a lot.
(I'm opening my mouth awfully wide here, I should be able to fit both feet.)

Pyramids = 400 shields
Granary = 60 Shields(IIRC)
Settler = 30 shields

+5fpt means we're not constrained by food or shields for pumping and are operating at maximum efficiency(or so I am assuming)

So, which is better?
The Great Pyramids
or
Granary + 11 Settlers + 1 Worker
Edit: This does not take into account the number of turns to completion. The 400 shields for the pyramids will invariably be generated before the 400 shields for a granary, 11 settlers, and a worker because the Pyramid build will not bounce from size 6 to 4 every 4 turns and will just grow steadily, reaching 400 shields sooner than the pump. I think.

The old me would desperately want to build the Pyramids in my "best" city, which would usually be my capitol.
The new me says I'd rather have 11 more towns.

Of course, Civ is rarely a pure either-or situation, so I think the real question for me would be which of those 11 settlers would make an attempt at the Pyramids (if any)?
Without actually trying it, I'd _guess_ Town3. Settlers every 4 from Capitol, Defenders as often as possible from Town2 until a better defender town gets going, and Town3 starting on the Pyramids straight away, with Town2 getting a (rushed?) granary when a new Defender factory is set up so it can push pop point to the Pyramids town and try to keep up with the Settler pump on tiles.

But the more I think about it, the more I'd probably skip the Pyramids altogether - of course, I've been on a bit of an anti-Ancient Wonder kick lately - I think I got too comfortable at Monarch level, so I could just be totally biased.

[Aeson]

One thing to take into account with the Pyramids is that it's not just 400 shields for those granaries, but for denying those granaries to the AI. Map Size (or continent size) is a big factor as well. On a huge landmass the Pyramids are unequaled in power while on a Tiny one it's just a glorified Granary or three.

Best way to get the Pyramids (or any Ancient Wonder) in a high food start is to found your second or third city in a high production area and add Workers from a pump. You usually need to add 4-5 Workers to get the Pyramids this way on Emperor, as one of the AI will consistantly finish it at or just after 1000BC.

Because building the Pyramids is a more peaceful approach, it's best to use one of the cities that would otherwise be dedictated to military production for the build. Generally you aren't going to want to fight as early anyways while putting 400 shields into improvements instead of military. Because of this, the cost to your Rex is limited to the Workers added, as the city wouldn't be building Settlers in a more military oriented approach anyways.

The other thing you can't overlook is that you aren't just adding these Workers for the Pyramids. That city (at size 12 by the end of the build) will be a super unit producer (15-20 spt... 30 in a representative GA) once it's finished, or can generally claim 2-5 more Ancient Wonders. At the high end with a coastal city, Ivory, and around 20 spt at size 12 (no GA), you can grab the Pyramids, Mausollos (pretty important one to get so you can drop your Lux rate down), Zeus (build it last if you have a monopoly and arn't going to war), and Great Library (build it last otherwise). Then pick 2 between The Great Wall, Hanging Gardens, Lighthouse, or Artemis (cost: 2 generally).

[vmxa1]

For me the choice would come down to the location/map. If I am in a small island, don't need it. If I am in any size land mass, but have lots of neighbors close, I can't afford to spend the time.

I would need a large amount of available land, that I could expect to get, if I built it. The level comes in to play when I am on Deity or Sid, I can't get it. If I was to play on Chief/Warlord/Regent, I may build it for GP.
So it it is the levels in between that I have to think about it. BTW I seldom build it regardless.

[Arrian]

Good point, Aeson, re: denial. That is definitely a factor.

If I was to take a shot at the Pyramids, I would do as you suggest: use a city that otherwise would build a barracks and troops.

I tend to prioritize getting a couple of barracks cities up and running quickly, since I generally open with the granary-in-capital thing and therefore have a pathetic military early on. So I (over)compensate by having multiple cities build barracks right quick and being pumping troops (and, if available, one of 'em builds Zeus).

-Arrian

[DrSpike]

Originally posted by Dominae


Care to demonstrate why? I know it's tough on Sid, but I have yet to hear an argument why it's less efficient on lower difficulty levels (where you're more likely to grab it).


Dominae

The best start is probably (we can only see a piece, and you would have time to adapt in game) 2 cities kicking settlers with a granary each, provided you have enough room to expand. Why wait for the pyramids? If you're doing a granary opening you wont get the pyramids unless you play clever with another site you bump with pop from the factory. Furthermore, forgoing the opening I suggest on that start to get the pyramids will break even in food terms far enough into the future as to be only atttractive on an extremely large map. This is what the good start does here - makes the granary opening more attractive relative to the pyramids one, pushing the break even point further into the future.

Anyway what attracted me to comment on Arrian's post was that I didn't want his insight to get marginalised because he wasn't certain of his ground, though he intuitively knows he is correct. The pyramids can be great (with some of Aeson's or Sir Pleb's well known huge map games being the most marked examples), but as I said the onus has to be on the player to justify spending 400 shields in the crucial early game - you might well be able to, but all too often IMO wonders get built as a reflex just because it's possible to build them on the lower levels. In earlier games you had to justify forgoing key early wonders, but in Civ3 wonders are weak enough, and expensive enough in opportunity cost terms for it always to be necessary to justify spending those shields. I don't see this point made enough on these forums, so I'm having a shot at it.

IMO this point is key to difficulties experienced when players are 'moving up' a level (I hate that phrase). They can get wonders at Monarch, and they think they need them. Then when they increase the difficulty and don't get them their games are based around crutches that are not necessary in reality anyway. Too many best wonder threads perhaps - maybe I'll start a "why you shouldn't build wonder x" series to compensate.

[Dominae]

Doc, I agree with you that less-experienced players use Wonders as "crutches", or at least think they're not competitive if they do not build a Wonder or three in the Ancient era. But this is different from claiming that the Pyramids or the Great Library are not useful Wonders... useful enough to be at the core of your strategy, depending on the scenario.

I think you can justify the Pyramids even on Standard-size maps. With a very good start my strategy (similar to Aeson's) would be to get a couple of cities up quickly, then use one to support the other in building the Wonder. There's no reason why the first or second city could not build a Granary itself to help in this regard; the efficiency of an early Granary is not wasted when the Pyramids get built, if that Granary helped secure the Pyarmids in the first place.

Other points that I agree with: vxma1's about the need for scouting to determine what's the best course of actions, and Aeson's (again) about denying Granaries to the AI (the AI is horrible at exploiting Food...the Pyramids are the best Wonder it could possibly have).


Dominae

[DrSpike]

I didn't say they weren't useful, not once. I said that my impression was that they were seen as more useful than they actually are. Hence I emphasised the other side of the coin, since I feel it needs emphasising.

If you can justify the shields (and sometimes you can) then all power to you. I just make the suggestion that players should really feel that building the wonder is the best way forward given all the settings and the general gameplan.

[ducki]

I agree with everybody. Until Doc pointed out justifying the shield cost, I'd never done the math on the GP versus a Granary and Settlers. It was eye-opening, to say the least, and shows me that I should probably "never" convert my pump to a wonder city if there's still a need to pump.
"Never" being a fuzzy term.

[vmxa1]

It is alway good to see how others approach things and to see if what you are doing is in the ball park. It also helps to be forced to evaluate your concepts.

Speaking of such, are you about to conclude the coastal threead Dom?

[Dominae]

Originally posted by Doc
I didn't say they weren't useful, not once. I said that my impression was that they were seen as more useful than they actually are. Hence I emphasised the other side of the coin, since I feel it needs emphasising.

Then I misunderstood you, my bad.

[ducki]

Originally posted by vmxa1
It also helps to be forced to evaluate your concepts.

This is precisely why I love reading and posting here. I don't mind sounding like a total "newb" if it means I'll learn something. This thread alone has done more for my C3 skills than any other single chunk of information I can remember and it all stemmed from an off-hand remark by a couple of the vets.

Sure, sometimes I look like an idiot, but I'm cool with that.

[Arrian]

I was toying around with trying to build the Pyramids, using my 2nd city for that purpose, in a nice easy Monarch level game I had a nice capital spot, but not one ideally suited for a granary (+4fpt), so I didn't build one, and instead built a barracks and fit troops inbetween settlers. Bab bowmen are excellent barb hunters. Anyway, the AI built the Pyramids in 1125bc. I don't know exactly what happened in this example, since normally the Pyramids don't get built until a tad later (900-800bc) on that level of play.

But regardless, it illustrates another element to all of this: the risk of investing heavily in building the Pyramids, and losing them. The AI is wonder crazed. It will start building wonders early and often, which is actually great for an opportunistic human that is foregoing wonders and building military or even just regular city improvements like markets and libraries. But it means that competing for major wonders can be brutal, and the Pyramids might be the worst of all.

-Arrian

[DrSpike]

Absolutely! Games can be ruined by going for a wonder and missing it. You'll end up with something sucky.

[Dominae]

Originally posted by Arrian
I was toying around with trying to build the Pyramids, using my 2nd city for that purpose, in a nice easy Monarch level game. I had a nice capital spot, but not one ideally suited for a granary (+4fpt), so I didn't build one, and instead built a barracks and fit troops inbetween settlers. Bab bowmen are excellent barb hunters. Anyway, the AI built the Pyramids in 1125bc. I don't know exactly what happened in this example, since normally the Pyramids don't get built until a tad later (900-800bc) on that level of play.

I would like to see you try it again using both cities to help the Pyramids effort. No offense, but it sounds to me like you wanted to fail...

Edit: I'm not arguing against your point mind you; going for an early Wonder is never a sure thing if you're on the right difficulty level. But that's what keeps things interesting!

It's possible that the AI rushed the Pyramids with an SGL. That is definitely a weakness of the early-Wonder gambit. SGLs should not appear before Literature.


Dominae

[ducki]

I was thinking that skipping the granary might have been a subconscious blip. +4 food is still magnified to an effective +8 with the granary, and you'd have been able to sprint the population in the Pyramids town to it's max rather quickly to push your shield production.

Not that I'm criticising. Hell, I still haven't managed to wrap my brain around using a worker pump just to transfer population in-game. Theoretically, I can see how brilliant it is. In practice, something's holding me back. I just need to throw some switch up there, like you guys did explaining the pumps in the first place.

How about posting a sav and we can see if anyone can get the Pyramids before the AI?

[Arrian]

Originally posted by Dominae


I would like to see you try it again using both cities to help the Pyramids effort. No offense, but it sounds to me like you wanted to fail...

Edit: I'm not arguing against your point mind you; going for an early Wonder is never a sure thing if you're on the right difficulty level. But that's what keeps things interesting!

It's possible that the AI rushed the Pyramids with an SGL. That is definitely a weakness of the early-Wonder gambit. SGLs should not appear before Literature.

Dominae

I did not want to fail, Dom. I was seriously bummed when I lost the race. Trying for the Pyramids is something I very rarely do, so I'm not accustomed to it. That probably means I'm not very good at it. And keep in mind that you're a better player in general.

What happened was that, given a +4fpt capable capital, I chose NOT to build a granary, and thus my pop growth was limited. 5-turn growth in the capital. IIRC, I was going spearman-settler-bowman-spearman-settler for a while. No workers for boosting pop in other cities.

In retrospect, I should have built a granary. +4food with a granary isn't very efficient, but it's still decent and since on Monarch one can get to Republic very quickly (CoL first, then Philo, Rep as free tech), the irrigated grassland cow I had would've gotten an extra fpt, and the city would have jumped to +5fpt not too far down the road. Though I think in most cases on that difficulty level I would have gotten the Pyramids on that map. The Spanish did something out of the ordinary to build the Pyramids in 1125bc. It could have been an SGL, sure.

I actually tried twice, by the way. The second game was strangely similar: I had a river capital with 1 grass cow, for +4fpt. Didn't build granary. My 2nd city went for the Pyramids. The Inca beat me handily.

I could have cut out some builds in that 2nd city to tighten up the race (the city went warrior-worker-temple-Pyramids). But I still would have lost. I don't remember the date of completion, but they beat me by a lot. Part of it was that the 2nd city didn't have a lot of bonus production tiles. Part of it was that I didn't boost its pop with workers from elsewhere.

Given a +5fpt capital, I could build a granary and run 2-turn workers for ~10 turns and just pump up that second city, hardly missing a beat in my normal REX. With a +4fpt city lacking a granary, I cannot. It would mean seriously curtailing that REX. And then we get into opportunity cost of the wonder.

I'm feeling my way through this. I'd like to see if I can pull of building the Pyramids while still doing a reasonable REX, and figure out the best way of doing that. Clearly I haven't thrown enough resources at the wonder city, and that has hurt me. I will try more, fear not.

I just got kicked off the computer after my second attempt, so my gf could go invade the Celts (which went badly - both of us had a frustrating night of civ).

-Arrian

[Aeson]

If the AI build the Pyramids by 1125BC on Monarch that is either an SGL or a godly start position.

I've never been beaten to the Pyramids (I don't try to build them on Deity or Sid of course), but it can happen. You just got very very unlucky. I would say it's comparable to when the volcano goes off and destroys a similar number of shields of units...

There is risk whatever you go for.

[Arrian]

Originally posted by ducki
I was thinking that skipping the granary might have been a subconscious blip. +4 food is still magnified to an effective +8 with the granary, and you'd have been able to sprint the population in the Pyramids town to it's max rather quickly to push your shield production.

Not that I'm criticising. Hell, I still haven't managed to wrap my brain around using a worker pump just to transfer population in-game. Theoretically, I can see how brilliant it is. In practice, something's holding me back. I just need to throw some switch up there, like you guys did explaining the pumps in the first place.

How about posting a sav and we can see if anyone can get the Pyramids before the AI?

Agreed on the first bit. Should've built the granary and transferred pop to the Pyramids city.

Speaking of pop transfer... I struggled with that concept as well. Then I started a game (PTW) as the French, and made a concious decision to: 1) ignore wonders; 2) stick with the pump far longer than I normally would - resisting the urge to switch to improvements. I fished for a +5fpt site, got it, and played. The rest of my land was so-so at best. I held firm and left Paris pumping 2-turn workers for a long while, and added workers all over the place.

My empire wasn't wonderous. It wasn't particularly cultured. But it sure as hell was competitive - more so, I feel, than it would have been given that same terrain and my normal approach. It was instructive.

I don't play that way all the time, though. There is always a time when I cave in and switch my pump over to building improvements, even when I could still be moving pop out to surrounding cities. What I've gotten a bit better with is the method of shutting off the pump. I now try to remember to spit out 5 extra workers so I can immediately boost the city to size12. The workers fix up the terrain (maximizing production) and then join the city.

-Arrian

[Arrian]

Originally posted by Aeson
If the AI build the Pyramids by 1125BC on Monarch that is either an SGL or a godly start position.

I've never been beaten to the Pyramids (I don't try to build them on Deity or Sid of course), but it can happen. You just got very very unlucky. I would say it's comparable to when the volcano goes off and destroys a similar number of shields of units...

There is risk whatever you go for.

Yes, so very hot of the RNG.

I know 1125bc on Monarch is unusual. But it probably isn't so unusual on Emperor, is it? And that's really more relevent, I feel. I chose Monarch so I could play around with it, almost like "sandbox" mode - because I'm super comfortable on that level. But Emp is really where the cost-benifit-risk analysis gets interesting, I think.

-Arrian

p.s. You don't get beat to the Pyramids because you're the AI's worst nightmare incarnate.

[Aeson]

I've seen Agricultural civs with very good starts on Emperor hit 1050BC. Never seen a build earlier than that, but with SGL's it could be very early on any difficulty I suppose. I'm not sure how the AI uses SGL's though, anyone?

------------------

Here is a 'bad' (not terrible) Monarch start for going for the Pyramids. By bad I mean Mongols (no Ag, no Ind, no Masonry), no bonus food unless you wander a bit, and neighbors with pretty good terrain. I normally wouldn't build the Pyramids on this map, but if you like a small empire with massive population, it's a good choice here. Pyramids followed up by a conquest on this map may be the 'best' option in a Jason score sense, but probably not a QSC one. Fastest Spaceship/Diplomatic/20k type of game most definitely. Anything worse than this start, and you just don't want to build the Pyramids I'd think. You can do it without a fresh water source (I finished at size ~7.5), but it would be pushing it. You need 4-5 tiles of 2 production (no more than 2 being Forests).

I ran through quickly with no preplanning and built the Pyramids at 1350BC in my capitol (moved out to the coast, so no bonus food). First building a Granary and a Settler (probably should have reversed that, building a Settler then a Granary, or just not build the Granary at all). Didn't add a single Worker to do it. Your expansion will be slow, but not much slower than REXing regularly if you don't push quite so hard towards the Pyramids like I did. No one on my continent had even started building it by the time I finished. IIRC Monarch tends to finish the Pyramids ~800-600BC most of the time.