I consider Diplo guiding past forts a cheat - Page 2

finbar · July 24, 2000, 08:10

<center><table width=80%><tr><td><font color=000080 face="Verdana" size=2><font size="1">quote:
<img src="/images/blue1.gif" width=100% height=1>
</font><font size=1>Originally posted by Alexander's Horse on 07-24-2000 12:13 AM</font>

The whole point of fortifications, even in ancient times, was that they provided a point from which defenders could dominate the surrounding terrain in relative safety, particularly preventing movement.

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But they didn't always succeed, that's the whole point.

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finbar
Mono Rules!
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July 24, 2000, 09:02

No, they didn't always succeed. Of course those who use diplos, including me now, always succeed in getting past

<font size=1 face=Arial color=444444>[This message has been edited by Alexander's Horse (edited July 24, 2000).]</font>

cavebear · July 24, 2000, 13:03

AH, thanks for explaining diplo-guiding. It never occurred to me to leave a dip planted on a square. He must be using the well-known "cloak of invisibility".

Can the opponent see the dip, at least? Does it work with explorers too?

As to the logic of it, I don't see it. Not to try and force too much reality on a game, but diplomats and spies *are* historically different. Diplomats operate more in the open and in cities. Spies are covert by nature and stealth is natural to them.

Still, as long as it seems to be acceptable in game play, I will try it out sometime.

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SmartFart · July 24, 2000, 13:45

I have no problems with this.
Just for the record,I don't consider it as a cheat.

rah · July 24, 2000, 15:40

Just for the record, i consider this on par with building cities on Mountains.

RAH

July 24, 2000, 20:14

Come clean guys. You know its absurd. The only reason you allow it is because you like to use it.

On the the other hand, there is the famous case of the German army which slipped through the Maginot line in the dead of night instead of going around it through Belgium and Luxembourg.....wait a minute!

finbar · July 24, 2000, 21:02

<center><table width=80%><tr><td><font color=000080 face="Verdana" size=2><font size="1">quote:
<img src="/images/blue1.gif" width=100% height=1>
</font><font size=1>Originally posted by cavebear on 07-24-2000 01:03 PM</font>

Can the opponent see the dip, at least?

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Units can only "see" one square around them. Diplos can "see" two squares.

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finbar
Mono Rules!
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cavebear · July 24, 2000, 21:56

Finbar, so units in fortress can only see to their limits of Zone Control when they scout around to back it up. That seems reasonable.

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Frank Johnson · July 25, 2000, 00:44

See the whole problem with ZOC is that it doesn't allow you to make movements that would allow you to be surrounded etc.....

That's because there's no attack power bonuses in Civ2 for flanking, or surrounding your enemy or attacking from 2 or 3 sides at once.

Anicent fortifications rarely attempted to wall off everything......theres only a few exceptions like the GW, but what they did do is put apporaching enenmies between a rock and a hard place. They either had to attack the fort, or approach at an angle that would allow them to be attacked from two sides or more at once, or go through a narrow passage etc.....

Thus the whole argument is flawed. The system of ZOC is messed up so why agrue about the rules of a piece of early 90s software?

Ming · July 26, 2000, 09:35

<center><table width=80%><tr><td><font color=000080 face="Verdana" size=2><font size="1">quote:
<img src="/images/blue1.gif" width=100% height=1>
</font><font size=1>Originally posted by Alexander's Horse on 07-24-2000 08:14 PM</font>
Come clean guys. You know its absurd. The only reason you allow it is because you like to use it.

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Well, I use it because it works... plus, people do it to me. If you want to stop this kind of thing, just build solid lines of defense instead of isolated forts

And just because it is absurd is no reason to diss it. Many things in Civ that we take for granted are absurd. Hmmmm, I just built the lighthouse in one of my costal cities, but a ship half way around the world won't get lost at sea because of it. That's one bright light

July 26, 2000, 18:57

Ming, as you say, I can do it too so it doesn't bother me that much. But I have about 30 years experience in wargaming and this is the kind of thing that really stuffs up a contest.

Reminds of the time when a friend and I agreed that units could advance after combat through ZOC in a board game (but then exert a ZOC when they got there

). It was fun while it lasted but we soon realised that it was distorting gameplay (making every battle an encirclement).

Ming · July 27, 2000, 10:43

Gee... that rule would really change your typical war game that uses ZOC's

One thing I have learned over the years with war games is that you have to take advantage of the rules of the specific game you are playing. Common sense or traditional rules have no place in it.

July 27, 2000, 17:40

<center><table width=80%><tr><td><font color=000080 face="Verdana" size=2><font size="1">quote:
<img src="/images/blue1.gif" width=100% height=1>
</font><font size=1>Originally posted by rah on 07-24-2000 03:40 PM</font>
Just for the record, i consider this on par with building cities on Mountains.

RAH
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Except I know for a fact that AH is serious about this one but was joking us along about the mountain cities... but it does give him a way out

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Ming · July 27, 2000, 17:51

Man... I hope he was joking about the mountains city thing! That is a non issue.

I'm not a big fan of the fact that you can use a diplo or other units to move a full army past a zone of control... but it is allowed, and is an intergral part of the game. But, I can understand his wanting to discuss it. Mountain Cities... HA HA HA HA!

July 27, 2000, 19:37

Well my capital in the game with makeo, "Almighty"

, is built on a mountain. I built it, so draw your own conclusions.

But I think you guys have a real blind spot on this guiding issue.

July 27, 2000, 19:54

<center><table width=80%><tr><td><font color=000080 face="Verdana" size=2><font size="1">quote:
<img src="/images/blue1.gif" width=100% height=1>
</font><font size=1>Originally posted by Alexander's Horse on 07-27-2000 07:37 PM</font>
But I think you guys have a real blind spot on this guiding issue.
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Perhaps we need a little 'guidance'....
then again, that would be cheating

finbar · July 27, 2000, 20:15

<center><table width=80%><tr><td><font color=000080 face="Verdana" size=2><font size="1">quote:
<img src="/images/blue1.gif" width=100% height=1>
</font><font size=1>Originally posted by iadkins on 07-27-2000 05:40 PM</font>
Except I know for a fact that AH is serious about this one but was joking us along about the mountain cities... but it does give him a way out

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Horse has always built cities on mountain squares.

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finbar
Mono Rules!
#33984591

July 28, 2000, 00:19

A private message to me from GP:

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I've always thought the Diplo ZOC guiding thing was out of control. Don't have MGE. And have done the whole moving a gazzilion howies with a spy around a enemies rail network lots of times in 2.42.

It would be better if there was a restriction on this. (limit it somehow) Make it more interesting.

It's not a cheat in an MGE war. But the overall game would be better with changed rules on this issue.

I can't post this--I banned myself again.

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Hydey · July 28, 2000, 00:33

Gee A bloke goes away for a week only to come back and find AH still sooking over nothing.

SuperSneak · July 28, 2000, 01:24

Yes, nephew...your father is having one of his "episodes" again.
We may have to put him down this time.
It's for his own good, after all.

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Ming · July 28, 2000, 08:36

I agree that it would be a better game if there was a limit placed on it, or if it wasn't a part of the rules... But it is!

So stop whining about it, and find ways to make it work to your advantage

cavebear · July 28, 2000, 18:18

I'm still a bit confused over this. Aren't there units which can see 2 squares (i.e., the ZOC)? Wouldn't they see a planted dip or other unit, or does a fortress limit that? If not, wouldn't they/you see all the other units moving through the dip square?

I don't think this has been done in any game I've played, and I can't make the AI do it as a test.

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Ming · July 28, 2000, 18:28

There are a lot of things the AI doesn't do!

Like the art of war

cavebear · July 28, 2000, 19:01

Ming, well, yes, but I meant that I'm asking the questions because I can't figure out a way to get the answers myself by testing game situations with the computer.

As far as the "art of war" goes, I agree completely. I'm playing the AI this past week, and I've watched it send an endless stream of various land units against a walled hilled/mined city, and an equally endless stream of ships against my coastal fortresses. On the other hand, the AI seems to build more cruisers every turn than it has cities, so I suppose the slaughter of the ships is only fair.

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Docker · July 29, 2000, 04:59

Cavebear, you can see the diplo and you can see the armies marching past, this occurs more often near citys with rail or roads where the defender has setup fortifications to protect his city by slowing down the enemy, a quite realistic practice. However by moving a diplo next to a fort nd then pressing 'W' you can then move your army to that square , as the rules allow your units to move any where if they are moving onto a square where one of your units are already located. The realy cool thing is then to move the diplo again another square, and move your army to that square, therby passing an enemy unit , which is not allowed in the rules. But because Dips can avoid ZOC using this procedure so can all your units...

I beleive that this is a bug of the program that the intent was never for armies to move pass enemy units ZOC , the intent was to allow Dips to pass by sure, but unfortuanlty the designers never foresaw the possiblilty of the combination of moving a dip with the army to pass it through.....

But as stated everybod does it so its ok !!!!

And with all the bugs and loopholes in hte game, apparently if lots of people are doing it then it must be ok...!!!!!

Hydey · July 29, 2000, 05:53

I must agree with Docker (lover of rusian queens) it is but a bug and as many use it then it must be OK

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cavebear · July 30, 2000, 13:37

Docker, thanks. I was only thinking of a situation in which the dip was left on a square for more than 1 turn, and couldn't see how anyone would permit that.

"Dynamic waiting", what a creative idea, an oxymoron that works! I've done it many times with ships and caravan-pickups, but hadn't thought to try dips and land units (a more tactical situation).

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July 30, 2000, 20:16

<center><table width=80%><tr><td><font color=000080 face="Verdana" size=2><font size="1">quote:
<img src="/images/blue1.gif" width=100% height=1>
</font><font size=1>Originally posted by Ming on 07-28-2000 08:36 AM</font>

So stop whining about it

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Note to New Posters: If you find yourself on the other side of the argument from Ming, sooner or later he will accuse you of "whining"

Ming · July 30, 2000, 20:38

Well, only if you are wrong, and you are whining about it

July 30, 2000, 20:52

Don't you ever get tired of having to be right all the time. That's woman's work