Patterns

[VetLegion]

I have read a few of the threads in this forum, and as this is the second or third (closer to fifth actually) time I am seeing a list being built – I think I can observe some patterns.

I am certain that in the following two years or so see a reiteration of one or more of these phenomena (actually, most of them, I believe..)

1. List organizing efforts (how did I figure this one out? )
2. Idea redundancy (Duplicate ideas/threads, ideas from the Civ III List making it into Civ IV list)
3. At least one new project started as a spinoff by people involved in the List discussions

As for the threads themselves, we will see a lot of...

1. Threads descending into historical discussion
2. Threads descending into historical discussion
3. Random brainstorming it would take a supercomputer to sort out and make sense of

(Forums, while ok for brainsorming, are pretty unsuited for concentrated discussion which would be better served by branching threads. Of course, efficiency is not the most important issue here, since it will take years for this game to be made, so the List is in no hurry)

And may I also be free to suggest a few common types of "civ discussant" we shall see here:

New enthusisast – this guy knows what it takes to make Civ IV a blast and won't spare bandwidth to let us all know.

New enthusiast 2 – this guy knows the first guy is wrong and won't spare bandwidth to let him know.

Moderator – will act if those two get out of control.

Hard core believer in CtP - This guy will start his posts with "It already exists in CtP. And not only that, but also...". There is little chance any good will come out of these bitter old farts.

Organizer – this guy will make futile attempts at keeping threads on topic, fleshing out interesting concepts, trying to fit them into a hierarchy of a sort...

Firaxis employee – this guy (or a few of them) may appear at some point, but it is not very likely. If they post, everything they utter will be observed with utmost respect and a class of scholars may form just to interpret their words.

FPS fan - This guy will keep trying to combine elements that don't fit. Can I play battles in Quake style? I say fine, but let's leave it for the patch

Civ2MPer – This guy will lurk around, post arrogant comments and make bets with his fellows in Civ 2 MP forums about "who will succumb and play Civ IV first", which ofcourse will provoke endless laughter and witty remarks from the vets.

Atheist – He will make casual appearances and irritate everyone by repeating the forum legend that Sid either never existed or is certainly not alive any more, let alone working on Civ IV.

Yin26 – space intentionally left blank -


....add your own stuff...



Ofcourse, in the process great fun will be had by all and many a story will be created to be remembered fondly after the game is built

The list itself will be great, just like the last one was.

[Maquiladora]

Hard core believer in CtP - This guy will start his posts with "It already exists in CtP. And not only that, but also...". There is little chance any good will come out of these bitter old farts.

Not really. Alot of people voted for stacked combat, alot more than visit the CtP1/2 forums in fact.

What about,

Useless thread starter - may create threads about what type of people post in lists, clogging up the list forum and be slagged off by bitter old CtP fart.

[VetLegion]

I was wondering should I put a disclaimer that I am joking, but now I am glad I didn't.

[Peter Triggs]

Civ3 Perfectionist: Civ3 is absolutely perfect. The only thing they need to do is change the name to Civ4. And anyway, they'll fix the bugs in the next patch.

[yin26]

[...reply intentionally left blank...]

[hexagonian]

Originally posted by Peter Triggs
Civ3 Perfectionist:

Don't forgot his brother in spirit - civ Blind Loyalist
...Heaven forbid looking at what other civ-style games did do successfully as possible ways to improve the civ experience.

[muxec]

Hard core believer in CtP

And also hard cord believer in MilitariZm.
BTW it already exists in militariZm, and elso...

Troll
Troll2
BTW, what's the difference between pair of trolls here?

[DarkCloud]

Civ3 Perfectionist: Civ3 is absolutely perfect. The only thing they need to do is change the name to Civ4. And anyway, they'll fix the bugs in the next patch.

And of course Civ II-Lover: Hates everything Civ III... and I mean everything

<----Me

(although I'll admit that the Civ III expansions seem to have made it almost worth playing ... but since the graphics are the most atrocious I have ever seen... eh. I'll refrain from purchasing that piece of trash.)

[VetLegion]

Originally posted by yin26
[...reply intentionally left blank...]

Amazing. Looking forward to reading your posts during the List, and after they make the game

[VetLegion]

And in case anyone thought I was trolling, it was not so.

I fit in all the above categories except I haven't played CtP much, so the post is self irony if anything.

[hexagonian]

Originally posted by VetLegion
I fit in all the above categories except I haven't played CtP much...

...which makes it all too clear why your nastiest labeling of the types of posters is reserved for CTP players...

[yin26]

Originally posted by VetLegion


Amazing. Looking forward to reading your posts during the List, and after they make the game

Vet: Hey, thanks. Actually, my life has become leaps and bounds more complex since those days long ago with the Civ3 list. My plan is to let others do all the crazy work and I'll reap the rewards if the game is any good (which I didn't think Civ3 ended up being at all!). But if Civ4 *is* a quality product, I'll gladly be back here with old and new friends. Take care.

[Shogun Gunner]

I may be in denial, but I can find my "category" in the first post...

I'm also not sure how much of your post is humor and how much is serious.

I am glad to have a discussion about the future of Civ4 for many reasons. It's interesting to hear other people's thought processes and ideas - even if I don't agree with them.

/wasting bandwidth off

P.S. How cool is it that yin26 is tracking this forum. You were the man for that Civ3 list, yin!

[DarkCloud]

Oh by the way VetLegion, about your comparing civ games site- could you perhaps please link to the thread you started on apolyton in the thread so that people can continue to comment on it an contribute- the OT thread has slipped a bit from its front page position

And also- what about my contributions to your list? did you not catch them in the old thread?

It doesn't really matter if you ignored them... but if you missed them- then I'm just saying that so you know

[Brundlefly]

Vet Legion.

Great thread!

[VetLegion]

Originally posted by hexagonian

...which makes it all too clear why your nastiest labeling of the types of posters is reserved for CTP players...

OK, to clear this with my dear CtPers

I have to admit that there is this certain antictpism that surfaces on Apolyton every now and then (often and in various places - that is what makes it different from your regular anticiviiiism or antismacism which people bring up rarely or in limited forums). In fact it does seem to me quite often that everyone out there (and his brother) are out to take cheap shots on CtP... so I kind of understand when you guys go on the defensive.

I assure you, I have never been among those. I have played CtP and CtP II a little, I loved some features (public works), I disliked others (combat) and overall it just didn't click with me so I stopped. However I am not one of the folks that uses every opportunity to bash the game (or the players).

So my comment about "bitter old farts" was meant in the grognard sense, of which I consider myself to be one too, so there. NHF, ok?

[VetLegion]

Originally posted by DarkCloud
Oh by the way VetLegion, about your comparing civ games site- could you perhaps please link to the thread you started on apolyton in the thread so that people can continue to comment on it an contribute- the OT thread has slipped a bit from its front page position

And also- what about my contributions to your list? did you not catch them in the old thread?

It doesn't really matter if you ignored them... but if you missed them- then I'm just saying that so you know

Sure, I will find the thread and bump to it, or link it in my sig so the discussion can continue. I won't stop untill we have quantified and compared all Civ games out there

(DarkCloud, I don't recall dropping your suggestions, perhaps I just forgot to credit you, I'll reread through that thread and correct that if so)

[hexagonian]

Originally posted by VetLegion
OK, to clear this with my dear CtPers ...
...So my comment about "bitter old farts" was meant in the grognard sense, of which I consider myself to be one too, so there. NHF, ok?

No offense taken - I get a laugh out of posters who, as I posted earlier in this thread, are blind loyalists to ANY game - be it CTP or civ - though I tend to laugh more at the Sid civ loyalists because of my own bias. I prefer (Modded) CTP overall, and as a CTP2 Modder, I will promote and defend CTP2, but I did break down and bought 'Conquests' and I am playing it at the moment. (which says that I do actually enjoy aspects of civ3 because I did spend the money on what amounts to an Xpack for civ3)

Besides, as a CTP player, I'm used to the shots taken at the series. Is it going to change my preferences regarding which game I will play? No - I play a game because I enjoy it, not because of some other player's opinion of the game. But I am also interested in the 'why' when it comes to gaming preferences. Why is stacked combat considered better/worse than single unit combat? Why the fanaticism concerning Public Works vs Workers...?

IMO, both games have much to offer in the way of gameplay. It may be that the gameplay issues of each game were not implimented as well as they could have been, but the foundation ideas for those gameplay issues from each series are often good starting points - and should be considered for civ4, especially since CTP2 will never have a true company-created sequel.

[VetLegion]

But I am also interested in the 'why' when it comes to gaming preferences. Why is stacked combat considered better/worse than single unit combat? Why the fanaticism concerning Public Works vs Workers...?

true fanatism can rarely be helped. I don't remember a single fanatic who was ever converted to be a moderate through discussion. Usually it has to be growing up

but the foundation ideas for those gameplay issues from each series are often good starting points - and should be considered for civ4

And not only ideas from Civ or CtP branches, (as you already said) a lot of interesting concepts exist in other games of the genre (there are quite some).

[Fosse]

I'm seeing a lot of the Option Compromisers.

THere will be a debate about which of two incompatible approaches to gameplay are to be preferred, with sound arguments and resons on both sides. Then, out of the blue comes...

"Just make it optional at startup. Now everyone is happy."

The less reasonable it is to make something optional (ie, spherical or flat world map? Make it Optional!), the more likely this person is to arrive.

[VetLegion]

Good observation

Reminds me of a text I read a couple days ago, by Brad Wardell, the project lead of Galactic Civilizations. He basically says the same thing you wrote, if they say something "can be optional", it probably should be left out...

Our young development team was hungry for any sort of good word, so the regulars on our forums carried a lot of weight. It was often difficult to say no to their ideas, even if their suggestions made the game unplayable for the vast majority of users. For a game designer, it is challenging to differentiate between a "hardcore feature" and something that will appeal to most people. I have a general rule of thumb for this, which goes like this: If the person proposing the new feature uses the phrase "You could always enable/disable this feature from the options screen…", it's likely a hardcore feature.

http://www.gamasutra.com/features/20...rdell_04.shtml (full article is a postmortem on GalCiv, but you have to register to read it).