I got a question.

[MrFun]

Ok this is yet another Civil War-related thread, but the question at the end of this post has not really been answered before IIRC.

First off, I want to point out that I find the politics of how different groups of people choose to remember the Civil War and Reconstruction fascinating and how this continues to affect race relations today in United States.

Whites who are extremely biased in favor of the Union try to emphasize the racism behind the Confederacy, while ignoring the hypocrisy of the Union during the Civil War and then during Reconcstruction -- enfranchise blacks in Southern states, but exclude Chinese, Amerindians, and Japanese from equal rights. These same people also point out every atrocity some Confederate soldiers have committed against black civilians and black soldiers, while forgetting the atrocities that some white Union soldiers have committed.

Another group includes those whites who are extremely biased in favor of the Confederacy to the extent that they minimalize slavery as an insignificant issue of antebellum America leading up to the Civil War. They also over emphasize the issue of states rights, ignoring the fact that states rights was used as a way to preserve slavery, and later, to revoke the equal rights given to blacks during Reconstruction. This extreme biased memory became the "Lost Cause" mythology.

A third group includes blacks who embrace the emancipationist memory of the Civil War and Reconstruction to an extreme extent, so as to put Lincoln on the pedestal reserved for demi-gods. These blacks want to forget that the Emancipation Proclamation was really a half-step, war-time strategic measure. They also want to ignore the minority of black slaves who were loyal to plantation owners during the Civil War.

Unfortunately, as a result of the "Lost Cause" mythology that developed from the 1880s, white Northerners reconciled with white Southerners on the South's terms, in regards to race relations. They embraced one another through the fraternal spirit of white supremacy.



Having pointed out the three, broad, main extreme biases, I have a question about the "Lost Cause" mythology and its ideology. If those who believe in the "Lost Cause" mythology claim that it is never based on racism, why has it always been the case that the overwhelming majority of blacks -- North and South -- have never venerated the historical Confederacy to this day??

This, I believe, is a question that has never been answered in past Civil War-related threads.

[Al B. Sure!]

A third group includes blacks who embrace the emancipationist memory of the Civil War and Reconstruction to an extreme extent, so as to put Lincoln on the pedestal reserved for demi-gods. These blacks want to forget that the Emancipation Proclamation was really a half-step, war-time strategic measure. They also want to ignore the minority of black slaves who were loyal to plantation owners during the Civil War.

i dont believe i know a single black person who subscribes to this theory and all i know are black people. those few who really care and articulate their views Lincoln didn't really care. i dont understand what type of benefits Lincoln gained from the Proclaimation and how anyone could possibly hold this view. Lincoln is seen as someone who wanted to ship blacks off to nicaragua and liberia and didn't give a damn.

of couse, this is a 'black intellectual' minority that likes to speak out of their ass a lot.

[MrFun]

David Blight, a historian, was the one who described the emancipationist memory of the Civil War.

Blight discussed how many blacks after the Civil War, through the early twentieth century, celebrated the anniversary of the Emancipation Proclamation.

[MrFun]

And I suppose all the viewers of this thread were tongue-tied as to finding an intelligible answer on why the vast majority of blacks do not celebrate the "Lost Cause" mythology as many white Southerners and a number of white Northerners do.

[chequita guevara]

You are so arrogant.

[Sprayber]

I agree with che.

[Inverse Icarus]

I agree with Spray, who agrees with Che.

[Verto]

The South will rise again...THEN will take care of those who questioned us.

[GePap]

I always found it funny that the "states right" south was the first to impose a national draft-and forced all southern soldiers to stay in the army long after thier terms were supposed to end.

[Sprayber]

Originally posted by GePap
I always found it funny that the "states right" south was the first to impose a national draft-and forced all southern soldiers to stay in the army long after thier terms were supposed to end.

So did many men in the South who decided to fight for the Union. They just found it hilarious.

[MrFun]

Originally posted by chegitz guevara
You are so arrogant.

[chequita guevara]

Let's see if we can save this from the usual MrFun bash the South thread.

What I would be interested in understand is the spread of the Lost Cause mythos through areas of the South that were pro-union, like Kentucky or Appalachia. I think the civil war nature of the Civil War gets neglected far too often.

[Sava]

William T Sherman is a hero... rise again South... I DARE YOU!!!

[MrFun]

Originally posted by chegitz guevara
Let's see if we can save this from the usual MrFun bash the South thread.

What I would be interested in understand is the spread of the Lost Cause mythos through areas of the South that were pro-union, like Kentucky or Appalachia. I think the civil war nature of the Civil War gets neglected far too often.

Just because I have a special interest in the politics of how different groups of people remember the Civil War and Reconstruction, and how those memories affect race relations, does not mean I want to bash the South.


You didn't read all of my initial post -- I pointed out the extreme bias from the North. So how am I bashing the South by pointing out biases from all different groups of people??

[SlowwHand]

First, the North had conscription also.
The fact that each STATE had conscription has nothing to do with your question.observation, GePap.

Other unanswered questions:

1) Why did Lincol wait until the North was through with slavery, replaced by Irish, to issue his beloved Emancipation Proclamation?

2) If the esteemed Lincoln was going to declare all slaves free, why did he wait until half-way through the war? Why not before the first shot was fired?

3) If the wonderful Lincoln was going to free slaves, why just Blacks?

4) What of California?
From the California Constitution of 1879:
"No native of China, no idiot, insane person, or person convicted of any inmfamous crime shall ever exercise the privileges of an elector of this State".

[For the dull-witted, this means can not vote]

5) Why is that so many Northerners refuse to accept the above facts?

6) Will your taffy ass ever get tired of belittling Southern states?

[SpencerH]

Originally posted by MrFun
why has it always been the case that the overwhelming majority of blacks -- North and South -- have never venerated the historical Confederacy to this day??

Have you been drinking?

[Sava]

Slowwy pie:

1. I am not about to guess the motives of a president who has been dead for over 138 years

2. Don't know... even if it was political... he still freed the slaves you lincoln hater

3. Can't go from **** to Utopia in one fell swoop

4. big deal, women didn't vote until the 20th century

5. we don't (btw am I considered "northerner"? I thought I was "midwesterener")

6. NEVAR!

[chequita guevara]

Originally posted by MrFun
You didn't read all of my initial post -- I pointed out the extreme bias from the North. So how am I bashing the South by pointing out biases from all different groups of people??

I did. You painted with a broad brush.

[MrFun]

Originally posted by SlowwHand
First, the North had conscription also.
The fact that each STATE had conscription has nothing to do with your question.observation, GePap.

Other unanswered questions:

1) Why did Lincol wait until the North was through with slavery, replaced by Irish, to issue his beloved Emancipation Proclamation?

2) If the esteemed Lincoln was going to declare all slaves free, why did he wait until half-way through the war? Why not before the first shot was fired?

3) If the wonderful Lincoln was going to free slaves, why just Blacks?

4) What of California?
From the California Constitution of 1879:
"No native of China, no idiot, insane person, or person convicted of any inmfamous crime shall ever exercise the privileges of an elector of this State".

[For the dull-witted, this means can not vote]

5) Why is that so many Northerners refuse to accept the above facts?

6) Will your taffy ass ever get tired of belittling Southern states?

1) Yep -- it's a well known, elementary fact that industrial workers were exploited in many different ways throughout the 19th century in the Northern states. Do you want a brownie point for this?

2) Why didn't Lincoln emancipate the slaves before the first shot was fired? He wanted to try to avoid secession and civil war, but obviously he failed, because the Southern states viewed self-defense of federal government property as a form of agression (Ft. Sumter). This is besides the fact that the Emancipation Proclamation was really only a half-measure that did not apply to all the states.

3) Yes, this is true -- why was the federal government ignoring the plight of white industrial workers? Why were women denied full rights to property and income? Why were children being forced to work in factories in Northern states? I guess you can call it hypocrisy -- it was easier to destroy slavery through the effects of war, and through wartime policies, than to create significant labor changes in Northern states.

4) Part of this was already stated by me in my initial post in regards to Chinese. But I overlooked the laws against the insane and criminal.

5) I have no problems accepting the above facts. Did you just choose to simply ignore where I pointed out Northern extreme biases in my initial post??

6) Will you neo-Confederates ever get tired of waving the Confederate flag in our faces while pretending to be patriotic Americans?




So, can you try to answer the question I asked in my initial post?

[Arrian]

Don't you just love it when someone attempts to adjust the parameters of debate in the very first post such that if you accept them, only one conclusion (they one the thread starter is looking for) is possible?

Poor show, Funman.

-Arrian (a Yankee, mind you, very much pleased with the outcome of the CW)

[MrFun]

Arrian -- I just want to know why, if it's the case that the "Lost Cause" is not racist, that the majority of Southern blacks do not celebrate the "Lost Cause?"

[Japher]

It's a Black Thing, we'll never understand

[Patroklos]

MrFun,

You have to remember that in your three extremists views you forgot to mention the saddest one. The people (as far as I can tell person) that believe in some revisionist "Lost Cause" threoy. You adhere just as dogmatically to your construct as anyone else holding one of the views you label "extremist. I particularly like that anyone who points this out is labeled by you as bieng traped by your hokie theory. It is self justifying, or self defeating if looked at properly.

I could never understand how your view could be so limited and ignorant, apparanty you do it intentionally. You refuse to enterain any other state rights issues other than slavery which is ignorant. It is reasonable to debate which issues were more substatial, but not their existance. The insistance that racist slavery intent was the ONLY reason for war is racist in itself, or rather it shows an inate tendancy for you to think in racial terms. You are simply applying this to a historical incident after the fact. It is called revisionism.

Am I saying racism and slavery were not primary causes, not at all. However, even if they were primary they were still encapsulated in the framework of a states rights debate. The South had no problem with the North removing slavery from their books, as it was their right as soverign states. I am sure they riduclued them and thought them stupid for doing so, but political and moral banter about such social and political issues is common place today. What the South did have a problem with is when the Nothern states used their congressional influence to try and restrict THEIR soverign state right to determan slave status in their territory, or when they tried roundabout means to achieve it through lattitude lines and such.

Let us remember that in 1800-1830 the major states rights issue was not slavery, but rather tariffs and trade restrictions, which led the NORTH to nearly suceed from the union over states rights in 1812. It simply shows the debate was old and entreched before slavery took supremacy in the arguement. Simply because slavery was the firefight that led to hostilities, it was only one firefight in a broader battle. To go back even furhter the debate is as old as the Articles of Confederation, where they for a time had a state contoled Union. And yes, even then they did debate slavery, to a degree.

So in summary, slavery may have been the up and coming issue, but not THE issue. I personal beleive it was 50/50 between slavery and the ideology that the Federal government should not be dominant.

-Pat

[Patroklos]

Mr. Fun,

Nobody supports the Lost Cause, black or white. In fact you are the only one who believes it exists.

-Pat

[MrFun]

Originally posted by Patroklos
MrFun,

You have to remember that in your three extremists views you forgot to mention the saddest one. The people (as far as I can tell person) that believe in some revisionist "Lost Cause" threoy. You adhere just as dogmatically to your construct as anyone else holding one of the views you label "extremist. I particularly like that anyone who points this out is labeled by you as bieng traped by your hokie theory. It is self justifying, or self defeating if looked at properly.

I could never understand how your view could be so limited and ignorant, apparanty you do it intentionally. You refuse to enterain any other state rights issues other than slavery which is ignorant. It is reasonable to debate which issues were more substatial, but not their existance. The insistance that racist slavery intent was the ONLY reason for war is racist in itself, or rather it shows an inate tendancy for you to think in racial terms. You are simply applying this to a historical incident after the fact. It is called revisionism.

Am I saying racism and slavery were not primary causes, not at all. However, even if they were primary they were still encapsulated in the framework of a states rights debate. The South had no problem with the North removing slavery from their books, as it was their right as soverign states. I am sure they riduclued them and thought them stupid for doing so, but political and moral banter about such social and political issues is common place today. What the South did have a problem with is when the Nothern states used their congressional influence to try and restrict THEIR soverign state right to determan slave status in their territory, or when they tried roundabout means to achieve it through lattitude lines and such.

Let us remember that in 1800-1830 the major states rights issue was not slavery, but rather tariffs and trade restrictions, which led the NORTH to nearly suceed from the union over states rights in 1812. It simply shows the debate was old and entreched before slavery took supremacy in the arguement. Simply because slavery was the firefight that led to hostilities, it was only one firefight in a broader battle. To go back even furhter the debate is as old as the Articles of Confederation, where they for a time had a state contoled Union. And yes, even then they did debate slavery, to a degree.

So in summary, slavery may have been the up and coming issue, but not THE issue. I personal beleive it was 50/50 between slavery and the ideology that the Federal government should not be dominant.

-Pat

I'm aware of other issues that were tied to states rights -- such as when the South Carolina threatened to secede under the presidency of Jackson.

But I cannot ignore the historically preceding incidents that erupted in antebellum America over slavery and westward expansion, and with the agitation from abolitionists who inflamed the issue even more.

[MrFun]

Originally posted by Patroklos
Mr. Fun,

Nobody supports the Lost Cause, black or white. In fact you are the only one who believes it exists.

-Pat

Now THIS is a ludircous claim -- any person who venerates the Confederate flag, and insists that the Confederacy was on the right side of the war, is adhering to the principles of the "Lost Cause" myth. These people still exist today -- haven't you paid attention to recent flare-ups over the issue of displaying the Confederate flag?

[Ned]

Originally posted by Albert Speer


i dont believe i know a single black person who subscribes to this theory and all i know are black people. those few who really care and articulate their views Lincoln didn't really care. i dont understand what type of benefits Lincoln gained from the Proclaimation and how anyone could possibly hold this view. Lincoln is seen as someone who wanted to ship blacks off to nicaragua and liberia and didn't give a damn.

of couse, this is a 'black intellectual' minority that likes to speak out of their ass a lot.

Huh?

What?

Are you serious?

[Sava]

Originally posted by Ned


Huh?

What?

Are you serious?

sadly... yes he is

[Patroklos]

I am aware of them, but are you aware that some, I dare say most, display it out of regional pride. Do you honestly think that the hordes of Southern frat boys and sorority girls display the flag because they are racist or sorry the South lost? Of course not, it is just a regional thing, especially since ignorant northerns and hippies hate it, and they KNOW IT.

You know the Nazi's used the peace symbol, minus the circle, as a divisional standard. Does that make everyone who uses it a Nazi? Do all the Europeans who display regional banners of political entities that don't exist makeing any statment other than sectionalist pride. Of course not. Symbols and connections change alot.

-Pat

[chequita guevara]

Originally posted by SlowwHand
First, the North had conscription also.
The fact that each STATE had conscription has nothing to do with your question.observation, GePap.

Other unanswered questions:

1) Why did Lincol wait until the North was through with slavery, replaced by Irish, to issue his beloved Emancipation Proclamation?

Cuz Lincolsn wasn't Preisdent until about fifty years after the last Nothern state had abolished slavery. Or do you mean Nothern = Union? Kentucky, Missouri, West Virginia (IIRC), Maryland and Delaware were all pro-Union slave states, but they were never considered part of the North. They are all south of the Mason-Dixon line, which makes them Southern.

2) If the esteemed Lincoln was going to declare all slaves free, why did he wait until half-way through the war? Why not before the first shot was fired?

Because he didn't have the political support to make it happen and was afraid of losing the rest of the salve states to the evil cause.

3) If the wonderful Lincoln was going to free slaves, why just Blacks?

Because only the slaves were Black. No other race in the U.S. was enslaved at the time of the Civil War.

4) What of California?
From the California Constitution of 1879:
"No native of China, no idiot, insane person, or person convicted of any inmfamous crime shall ever exercise the privileges of an elector of this State".

This happened after the Civil War and is irrelevent when it comes to trying to understand the "Lost Cause" mythos.

5) Why is that so many Northerners refuse to accept the above facts?

Because the South acts unrepentent and too happily embraces the charicature of the South, rather than pointing out the huge minority of Southerners that were pro-union and anti-slavery. Because many in the South embrace the cult of the "Lost Cause."

6) Will your taffy ass ever get tired of belittling Southern states?

The only real question in your list.