1st Unofficial Apolyton MP tournament.

[Maquiladora]

Re playing without graphs, id rather not do that in a tournament if ive not played that way before but im all for the idea of making science take longer (say 20-25%?) means you’ll generally get to monarchy about turn 70-80 instead of 50-60 or so.

If we do go with increased sci cost we should make scientists available from the start, it test players better. BUT like i said, it should be down to the 2 players to decide what rules, the ONLY thing i would want is definate map sizes.

For example i know Toni prefers to play larger maps because he likes to develop his civ rather than fight too much until he has a large enough science or production lead, whereas i prefer smaller maps (not too small) because i concentrate on military tactics. Of course we can both change our strategies at anytime, but if me and Toni play each other, then there should be some definate map size we know beforehand. Or we could just play 2 games or best of 3 with different map sizes, but that would take too long.

Good to hear youre still in EPW.

[Barley]

Yes good to hear your in EPW.


Its time we start laying down some hard ideas for 1) default rules & 2) player definable rules. Here is my first stab, your welcome to make adjustments or suggestions etc, I want this to be a consensus and above all fun.

1) Default Rules

1a) Players should aim to complete eat round of games in a week (if we make it two weeks the tournament could take 10 weeks).
1b) All games to start in ancient era.
1c) Max 3 restarts per player per game (in case of poor starting loacation), restart must be requested before turn 10 (to allow for some exploration in case of small island).
1d) Donought World map setting.
1e) Victory Conditions – Conquest or Surrender.
1f) Wonders, Nukes & Polution disabled.
1g) Played on standard CTP2 version 1.11 (slight modifications i.e. no settlers in huts, no graphs see player definable rules).
1h) Games to be played fairly and in the spirit of the original game i.e. no glitches, cheats, bugs or un-authorrised modifications to be used.
1i) In case of arguments or disagreement the judges decision is final. The judges are all the other players competing in the tournament and the decision is to be reached by majority verdict (im sure we wont need this but just in case),


2) Player definable rules (to be agreed by both parties.

2a) AI Opponents - yes or no and number of AI players
2b) Map size - Small, Reg, Huge or Gigantic – bear in mind Huge and Gigantic maps may require several continuations and ideally we want each set of games to be completed in a week.
2c) Barb Settings and Difficulty settings
2d) Whether to disable any other units, buildings etc other than Wonders, Nukes & Polution
2e) If players have any particular issues with how a game should be played i.e. some don’t like players disbanding captured cities, slaving non AI players etc, these must be raised and agreed before the game starts.
2f) Modifications, players may agree to include or explude the following modifications – Wandering Nomads, Cities, Science Discoveries from Ruins. Research cost, Graphs on or off, Availability of Scientists from start of game (have I missed any?)



Lastly – im still looking for a game tonight if anyone is interested (available all night from 7.30 pm GMT – will also check the lobby at the turn of each hour)

[Maquiladora]

Agree with all except

1d) Donought World map setting.

... Polution disabled.

I think these should be Player Definable.

[Daniel Kesinger]

Sorry Barley and Maq, I don't agree with a few things. To summarize it all, I feel that there should be a standard set of rules across the board. No "player's to decide settings." This is to protect the novice players, as well as keep it even and consistent across the board.

My suggestion is a vote by all participants on each issue before the onset. I know that without that there will be a problem should one person not want to budge on an "alternate" rule.

As a side note, I wish I caught your message earlier Barley. I'm still looking forward to that match. From the sounds of it we share similar strategies.

[Toni]

Hey Maq just curious, were u able to talk with Quimby about the Tourney, is he playing 100%? About the rules of the Tourney, i'am up to any. About the no pollution issue, that sounds interesting Barley, i may go will you on that.
And guys what do you think about playing on max diversity land? More fun and tough to play with it.

[Toni]

Oh and about the no ranking graph issue i give my vote for not having them.

[Maquiladora]

No, i didnt get the chance to talk to Quimby, i totally forgot....

Ill start a new Poll thread and you can vote multiple choice on each rule for the Tournament you want.

[Maquiladora]

http://apolyton.net/forums/showthrea...hreadid=107217

Go and vote for the rules if youre in the Tourny.

[Barley]

OK the votes are coming in nicely. I say we officially close the tournament entry with immediate request since anyone who wants to play has had over 3 weeks to register their interest.

A few questions?

So there are 6 of us (waiting for Quimby to vote and confirm).

Assuming we play Maq’s format i.e. 2 groups of 3, each playing each other once with the 2 winners going through to a semi final and a final between the winner of the semi finals…

1) What happened if the result of the first stage is that each of the three players win 1 game?

2) How are we to impartially draw the groups? (not that I don’t trust anyone of course but by doing it impartially its 100% legit).

[Barley]

Just emailed Quimby and told him to register and vote by Thursday. With a bit of luck we could get the groups drawn and the rules agreed and start on Friday.

***All competitiors please keep an eye on this thread for breaking news, requests and issue resolution.***

[Maquiladora]

Assuming we play Maq’s format i.e. 2 groups of 3, each playing each other once with the 2 winners going through to a semi final and a final between the winner of the semi finals…

1) What happened if the result of the first stage is that each of the three players win 1 game?

2) How are we to impartially draw the groups? (not that I don’t trust anyone of course but by doing it impartially its 100% legit).

1) We play a 3 player game to decide it?

2) Get someone whos not in the Tournament to draw it.

[Barley]

Good ideas re no1, have you anyone in mind to help with no2?

Still not heard from Q...

[Maquiladora]

Locutus would be a good choice. Ill PM him WHEN we get confirmation of Quimby.

[Daniel Kesinger]

Hey guys,

Sorry, but my ISP has crashed. So I don't have internet access outside of my work, and I don't know for how long. I am hoping that it is back up by Friday so I can play this weekend. Plan me in as normal and I will check the thread daily for the details.

If there is a big issue or something I need to be aware of quickly, you can email me at either my yahoo (dm_kesinger@yahoo.com or daniel.edward.kesinger@us.army.mil)

Now, regarding matches, I think Barley should draw them from a hat...literally! I think thats fair all around. However, I'm up for whatever method you guys want.

Also, have we hammered out the rules?

Thanks,
Daniel

[Maquiladora]

The only definate rules so far are, NO Ranking Graphs and normal science rate.

Now, regarding matches, I think Barley should draw them from a hat...literally! I think thats fair all around. However, I'm up for whatever method you guys want.

Barleys in the Tournament... not to question his trustworthiness, but its better someone completely neutral does it.

[J Bytheway]

If you can't get hold of Locutus, I'll be happy to do the draw for you, since I'm keeping track of this thread anyway.

[Maquiladora]

Thanks J, as soon as we get Quimby here (or another player...) you can draw the groups. Or could draw them now and wait but id prefer everyone in before we draw.

[Barley]

I would rather not draw the names, I want that to be totally impartial.

If not one has an issue I suggest the following.

J Blytheway draws two teams from the 6 of us in the Tournament:

Barley
Maq
Daniel
EPW
Toni
Quimby

We can then arrange to start playing out games

(once the rules are agreed – Maq can you posy your understanding of the voting results, fixed and player definable rules, though I party agree that a majority of rules should be fixed so all games are similar in composition).

The games then start and either 1 of 4 things can happen:

1) Q gets his @rse in gear and joins us – lol

2) Q is a now show and we could clasify his place as a bye (automatic win for opponent)

3) Q is a no show and we find a quick replacement

Q is a no show and we convert the tournament to a simple 5 player league (2 points for a win), all play each other then the one with the most points is the victor, if there are 2 or more with equal points we go to a play-off game.

[Maquiladora]

Ok after numerous emails we can assume Quimby isnt available to play, so 5 players it is.
==============================

Before we get to the actual format of the "Tournament" we have to complete the voting for game settings, from the poll the results are:

Pollution OFF
Huge Map
NO Ranking Graphs
NORMAL Science Rate
NO Scientists from start of game
NOTHING from ruins

These are the rules for every game, so no arguements.

Toni was the only person to vote for Giga map size and Regular/Huge was tied, so i converted his vote to the biggest size, which is HUGE map, so we play that.
==============================

As discussed in a MP game earlier it would probably best to play a 5 player league, and the top 2 players play in the Final.

If players are tied the second deciding figure will be TURN #. If you win a game OR the player surrenders on Turn 128 (for example), 128 will be added to your Turn score. The LOWER this number the better and higher you will be in the league.

Anyone have a better idea to decide it?
==============================

Next we need to decide map composition (diversity, continents etc) how many restarts. I propose (counting from the left of each slider, furthest left being 0, furthest right being 10):

Wet - Dry = 0
Warm - Cold = 0 (these both 0 seems to work strangely well)
Ocean - Land = 2 (more diverse gameplay)
Island - Continent = 2
Uniform - Diverse = 10 (bad land for everyone most of the time)
Few Goods - Many Goods = 10

Starting Settlers 3 = 3 cities is small enough to fit on starting island.

Restarts Requests = 2, to decide before or on 5th turn, on turn 6 youre stuck with land, no exceptions.
==============================

Lastly id like to make one more alteration to DiffDB.txt concerning, "starting techs". To alter it so we ALL start with the following techs and have NO chance of getting any other techs randomly at the start.

Toolmaking
Agriculture
Religeon

What do you all think?

[J Bytheway]

If you rank ties by turn of victory, then you encourage playing to the very last, which in turn will make the games longer (especially on a huge map), and that will make everything take longer, and generally make the whole thing less likely to work out.

I would suggest you copy from one of the CTP PBEM leagues the 4x powergraph rule where the winner is declared when their powergraph is 4 times their opponents, but if you're not using graphs then you can't do that...

[Daniel Kesinger]

I agree with Bytheway, in the sence that I don't think the "# of turns added to your score" will work.

I think the best plan remains Barley's idea of a playoff game in the event of a tie. As far as overall battles, It's a battle to the finish or you simply surrender, thats the way each game should be played. I know it sucks if someone decides to hold out until their last city is taken, but thats their right.

Maq, I agree with all of your other suggestions, Re map compisition and starting tech. I assume that we will take the mean average of everyones vote?

Here is mine;Wet - Dry = 0
Warm - Cold = 0 *Never tried 0/0, but lets give it a try
Ocean - Land = 3 (simply because 70% of the earth is water)
Island - Continent = 3
Uniform - Diverse = 10
Few Goods - Many Goods = 10
Starting Settlers 3

So I assume we are set on 5, J Bytheway is now free to draw, correct?

[Daniel Kesinger]

OH, almost forgot. Where do we download the patches for the set rules (ie no graphs) ?

[Maquiladora]

Thats why i said anyone got a better idea

Another idea for tied positions is Total Score (under ranking), but this still leaves us with the "when do games end?" I dont know enough about how Total Score is shared between players, to know if it would be fair for everyone though. Total Score doesnt fluctuate greatly, and to get a serious score lead on someone you need to be well in front in pop or snatch all the feats, you can even be well behind in score and still be "in front".

As mentioned though, we can stick with the playoff option for now, if players are tied.

OH, almost forgot. Where do we download the patches for the set rules (ie no graphs) ?

Ill post them an attachment to this thread soon.

So I assume we are set on 5, J Bytheway is now free to draw, correct?

Perhaps we dont need to make a draw now that we're playing a League then playoff instead. We just all play each other........ or J if you want to draw the names for order of fixtures it might be better.

[Barley]

I have a couple of points.

1) Would prefer that players in game are able to decide map settings, Toni and I are not used to playing with the suggested settings.
2) Would prefer 3 restarts as ive had a series of bad land in some games. I want the winner to be decided by skill obviously and any game where there is a big difference of start positions wont necessarily come down to skill. Hence not relevant to tournament but when Toni & I play we reset until we have similar start positions (even if it take 6+ starts), at least we have a fair game that way.

I guess we don’t need a draw as we are playing a league, I suggest that those in the tournament start playing their games from Wednesday (if no objections received by midnight GMT Tuesday). Results can be posted in the forum and we can then keep a weekly record of who has played who, the current table and remaining games to be played.

Rules need to be sorted, Maq, bearing in mind my two comments above and others made can you consider and repost your favoured rules / let me know your thoughts. Its time to get the rules finalised and published, personally if it means we waste time haggling over minor preferences I say just go with anything that’s a virtual consensus. Lets get the games going…

[Maquiladora]

Originally posted by Barley
I have a couple of points.

1) Would prefer that players in game are able to decide map settings, Toni and I are not used to playing with the suggested settings.

Well you saw Daniel's suggestion. and i agree with it - post your prefered map settings and we go for the mean score of each, cant say fairer than that.

2) Would prefer 3 restarts as ive had a series of bad land in some games. I want the winner to be decided by skill obviously and any game where there is a big difference of start positions wont necessarily come down to skill. Hence not relevant to tournament but when Toni & I play we reset until we have similar start positions (even if it take 6+ starts), at least we have a fair game that way.

Thats why i suggested max diverse land and lots of islands, everyone gets an amount of bad land. If you find any good land with that setting, the land wont stretch far, and this seperates good city site choices from bad ones.

If we have infinate restarts then it would have to be before Turn 0 lol 3 restarts seems ok, before (and on) say, Turn 3.

[Barley]

Here is mine;

Wet - Dry = 5
Warm - Cold = 5 (but if this is averaged with the Warm/Cold 0/0) we’ll end up with 2/2 and a very cold and wet mep.
(Ocean - Land = 4
Island - Continent = 4
Uniform - Diverse = 10
Few Goods - Many Goods = 10
Starting Settlers 3

Q – I assume we are agreed that this is a standard setting for all games, anyone got a problem with that?

Don’t mind the diversity but prefer warmer and more land as don’t like small islands – often you end up with one player on a small and one on a large (we’ll see what the averages come out as).

Ok 3 restarts, till turn 5.

Anyway, im pretty much happy with all weve got, just want to get going. Hope we are all on schedule for a Wednesday start.

[EPW]

Heres mine:
Wet - Dry = 0
Warm - Cold = 0
Ocean - Land = 4
Island - Continent = 4
Uniform - Diverse = 10
Few Goods - Many Goods = 10
Starting Settlers 3

The other settings are fine with me

[Maquiladora]

We only need Toni's favoured map composition and we can finalize it.

[Toni]

Am ok with any sets, the only think that i won't is huge map atleast.

[Maquiladora]

This is all getting abit too in-depth but here are the results,

Wet - Dry = 0 5 0 0
Warm - Cold = 0 5 0 0
Ocean - Land = 4 4 3 2
Island - Continent = 4 4 3 2
Uniform - Diverse = 10 10 10 10
Few Goods - Many Goods = 10 10 10 10

Results
=======

Huge Map
--------
Wet - Dry = 1
Warm - Cold = 1
Ocean - Land = 3
Island - Continent = 3
Uniform - Diverse = 10
Few Goods - Many Goods = 10
--------

Settlers - 3
Restarts - 3 (within, and on the 5th Turn - no exceptions)
Starting Techs - Toolmaking, Agriculture, Religeon.
--------

Im also wondering if we should play each other twice... so each can be the host, what do you think? Is that too many matches for anyone?