What should the US do about the job drain?

[chequita guevara]

Originally posted by Ned
In order to have a populace that can handle high tech jobs, one needs a very well educated populace. Unfortunately, public education in the United States is severely broken.

This is crap. There are mountains of IT workers still begging for work, and I'm not just talking about web designers. The U.S. public education system was one of the best in the world, and continues to be so, despite Republican attempts to cripple it and make education a private business. This isn't to say there aren't problems, but the system ain't broken . . . yet.

Finally, we have a mentality here that seeks to impose more and more costs on businesses that should be funded by society.

Businesses aren't part of society?

[Ned]

Originally posted by Ramo


1. Foreign workers in places where American capital is moving to (the third world) make a pittance. It's totally obscene to have the US government tax their incomes.
2. How do you suppose such a tax is going to be enforced? It's not like Chinese or Indian tax collectors are going to follow the IRS' orders.

I think you missed my post about the deductiblity of foreign wages from American tax returns.

As to your observation about the obsenity of taxing foreign wages,

HUH?

They are taking jobs from America after all. That was the question on the table, was it not?

Personally, I would be in favor of lowering costs on doing business in the US by moving social costs onto government.

[Spiffor]

Originally posted by chegitz guevara
The U.S. public education system was one of the best in the world, and continues to be so, despite Republican attempts to cripple it and make education a private business. This isn't to say there aren't problems, but the system ain't broken . . . yet.

Really? For some reason, I never grew to believe the US public education system was once of the best in the world. Maybe that's because of the terrible inequalities in the quality ofeducation across the country. Ormaybe that's because of the relativelyweak knowledge a high-school student acquires. I heard tales of mediocre French students who passed for geniuses during their stay in the States. And France is far from the best education system in the world yet.

OTOH, the US has among the most high-end universities in the world (if not the very best of the world), but those require ridiculous fees to enter them.

As a result, the US has an educated population that can get very high levels of education, and uneducated population that cen remain very ignorant. That's probably the main reason why I keep hearing about being competitive against the low-wage countries.

[rah]

IT jobs are being outsourced overseas because of cost. It has nothing to do with the lack of well educated IT candidates available to do the job. There are plenty available. But a lot of that cost savings is being eaten up in improper translation of specs requiring multiple re-dos. Getting a offshore vendor the same high level project knowledge to make project decisions is also very costly. Eventually companies will identify the true cost of out sourcing, and reduce it's dependecy on it except in cookie cutter type applications. We are experiencing that now. The high level development is staying on shore now due to many failures off shore.

The programming happening in India is grunt level programming.

[Ramo]

I think you missed my post about the deductiblity of foreign wages from American tax returns

So what are you suggesting?

As to your observation about the obsenity of taxing foreign wages,

HUH?

They are taking jobs from America after all. That was the question on the table, was it not?

That was the question, and your "solution" is obscene.

Personally, I would be in favor of lowering costs on doing business in the US by moving social costs onto government.

Of course you would be. After all, the mantra of the right is to socialize costs and privatize profits.

[DanS]

Really? For some reason, I never grew to believe the US public education system was once of the best in the world.

I don't know as there have been any good comparative studies done at the time of che's "once of the best in the world". Speculation in absence of evidence.

[Spiffor]

BTW, for real results about comprative education systems, look forthe PISA Study. It was released some odd two years ago. It shocked Germany, which ranked badly.
I'm going to bed, so I can't be arsed to look for it, butI trust it's an easy find.

[Ned]

1. Foreign workers in places where American capital is moving to (the third world) make a pittance. It's totally obscene to have the US government tax their incomes.
2. How do you suppose such a tax is going to be enforced? It's not like Chinese or Indian tax collectors are going to follow the IRS' orders. [/QUOTE]

I think you missed my post about the deductiblity of foreign wages from American tax returns.

As to your observation about the obsenity of taxing foreign wages,

HUH?

They are taking jobs from America after all. That was the question on the table, was it not?

Personally, I would be in favor of lowering costs on doing business in the US by moving social costs onto government.

[Dr Strangelove]

Make some demands of the countries which have the biggest trade surplus with the US, specifically force them to accept labor unions. That will level the playing field very quickly.

[Nubclear]

Solution: Abolish minimum wage and work safety standards. Along with pesky environmentalist laws.

And re the US education system:

[Ned]

Originally posted by Ramo


So what are you suggesting?



That was the question, and your "solution" is obscene.



Of course you would be. After all, the mantra of the right is to socialize costs and privatize profits.

Ramo, I assume from your posts you are not in favor of keeping jobs in America.

[Lancer]

"1) Provide a tax credit for wages paid to Americans
2) End employer contributions to SS - shift to workers
3) Provide universal health care insurance to reduce health care costs on US businesses
4) End workers compensation laws - subsitute government insurance
5) Provide tax credits for compliance with environmental laws
6) Tax wages paid to workers outside the United States"

Ned, this is friggin brilliant. Just what I was looking for.



Dan, a commie. A COMMIE?!?!

[Ogie Oglethorpe]

Originally posted by Ned
1) Provide a tax credit for wages paid to Americans

Agreed

2) End employer contributions to SS - shift to workers

Only if SS is privatized/allowed to invest in equities as well to allow smaller contributions that will grow at an appropriate rate. Appalling how baby boomers and gen X'ers will never see a fraction of their invested SS monies. At leastwith an overall growth approximating historical stock market growth SS contributions would not have to be as sizable as they are now thus reducing the burden on the workers and as a side benefit would align government and industries (i.e.job growth) moreclosely.

3) Provide universal health care insurance to reduce health care costs on US businesses

couldn't disagree more on this one tho'. The cost of national healthcare although lifted from the backs of employers who typical shoulder the burden of (my estimate) 70% of the costs typically would IMHO be completely (in typical government fashion) be bungled thus raising overall costs. Tax burden to support such a program would be a major disincentive to growth. I do agree healthcare cost must be reigned in.In that regard I support initiatives that limit liability against malpractice, look to cleanup the HMO/insurance industries etc. Reducing those healthcare costs would allow more hires but ultimately I think a governement healthcare does nothing but increase those same costs.

4) End workers compensation laws - substitute government insurance

ugg another potential government bungle

5) Provide tax credits for compliance with environmental laws

woot! woot! Throw incompliance with OSHA as well!

6) Tax wages paid to workers outside the United States

Agreed

[Tingkai]

Originally posted by Impaler[WrG]
They only shut down an American factory when it becomes UN-PROFITABLE. If the American factory is making a profit they might start up another one in China to make MORE profit ofcorse but their not going to shut down a profitable factory for ANY reason,

Okay, everyone got that.

[Tingkai]

Originally posted by Ned
1) Provide a tax credit for wages paid to Americans

And the money for this tax credit will come from where? Your government is already running a $450 billion deficit.

The tax credit also won't do anything unless it makes up the difference between wages in the US and wages overseas. If labour costs $100 in the US and $10 in China, and the tax credit provides $1 then a company would still have an incentive to move jobs to China.

Originally posted by Ned
2) End employer contributions to SS - shift to workers

Again, this would likely have no effect on stopping the transfer of jobs while at the same time decreasing consumer spending.

Originally posted by Ned
3) Provide universal health care insurance to reduce health care costs on US businesses

This would likely lead to more investment and increased consumer spending, but it would not directly stop jobs going overseas.

Originally posted by Ned
4) End workers compensation laws - subsitute government insurance

Why should taxpayers pay for the mistakes made by a company. If a company has unsafe working conditions then the company should pay for the injuries it creates, not the taxpayer.

Originally posted by Ned
5) Provide tax credits for compliance with environmental laws

Again, where do you get the money for these tax credits.

It makes much more sense to tax companies that do not comply.

Originally posted by Ned
6) Tax wages paid to workers outside the United States

As Ramo mentions, this is impossible.

In most cases, American companies do not operate overseas factories. Instead, American companies contract out the work to overseas companies. For example, Nike doesn't employ workers in China. Instead it buys shoes and clothing made in China.

So the only way the US could "tax" these overseas jobs would be to tax imports which would violate WTO rules and lead to tariff wars.

[KrazyHorse]

Originally posted by Dr Strangelove
Make some demands of the countries which have the biggest trade surplus with the US, specifically force them to accept labor unions. That will level the playing field very quickly.

We have the biggest trade surplus with the US, and we have trade unions.

[Tingkai]

Originally posted by Boshko

Strange. Here I thought I got my Made in the USA New Balance Sneakers at the Skowhegan outlet for $30.

Shoes made in the sweatshops on Saipan can be labelled "Made in USA".

Besides, the price example I gave was simply an example.

Edit:

A quick google search of "new balance factories" foudn the following points:
1) Most of New Balance shoes are made in China
2) Company officials admit that shoes labelled "Made in USA even though 25% of the labour and material is not from the US

[Urban Ranger]

Originally posted by rah
But a lot of that cost savings is being eaten up in improper translation of specs requiring multiple re-dos.

You mean they don't know English?

Originally posted by rah
The high level development is staying on shore now due to many failures off shore.

Bah, software development projects in the US are just as likely to fail.

[notyoueither]

Originally posted by KrazyHorse
We have the biggest trade surplus with the US, and we have trade unions.

In fact, they have to invent reasons for tarrifs to protect their wussy lumber jacks against lumber from some of the most heavily unionized provinces in Canada.

I mean, I could see it if the trees came from Alberta, where we burn immigrants to heat the feeding pens for the cannibalistic cows, but come on, BC? We're practically talking Sweden here!

[KrazyHorse]

They don/;t understand that if there's more trees in BC than Wasghington them the price for lumber is lower,. Tghat;'s the wholde ****ing point of free trade.

[notyoueither]

You mean more trees than in the whole USA, I think. It would actually be close. I think.

[KrazyHorse]

Yup.

Plus we have more mad cwns than the whole USA!

Ca-na-da!

Can-a-da!

[notyoueither]

Naw, we've snuck a few over to them.

That's Alberta, the caring and sharing province.

[KrazyHorse]

Good Job.

Snesky bastards, you Albertans.

[notyoueither]

We fire 'em down the pipelines. High mortality rates, but some get through.

[Ben Kenobi]

I mean, I could see it if the trees came from Alberta, where we burn immigrants to heat the feeding pens for the cannibalistic cows, but come on, BC? We're practically talking Sweden here!

It actually depends on the portion of the province. The Interior can log quite cheaply due to large amounts of readily accessable timber. In fact I think the world's largest mill was just built in Houston, BC.

It's the Coastal loggers that get subsidised while the Interior mills run flat out to reduce costs. Now if the Americans would just let us send them wood, more Americans could afford homes.

[KrazyHorse]

This is what happens when you allow special interest groups to run tyour country.

I hated Chrétien until his last year in office.

Then he started being my personal Godd.

[Tripledoc]

Originally posted by DanS
I don't know how you could say that the Bush tax cuts weren't stimulative to one degree or another.

Taxes stimulate productivity. It is a most basic fact.
Cutting taxes would lower productivity. That is why it was predominantly the rich who were given the tax cuts, since of the poor were given a larger share they would slacken off. Since the rich only add to productivity by what they are able to spend, if for political reasons Bush needed to give them a tax cut then that won't hurt the economy so bad. At the same time excessive savings are warded off by low interest rates. This means that now land property is the most rewarding to invest in. The following rise in price of land adds further to the productivity of the poor, since now do they not only have to pay a larger relative share of the tax burden but also a larger rent. Of course not evryone is capable of keeping up, which is why the one's who are sacrificed to the prisons, will have to be replaced by immigrants. They will help ensuring that the labour market stays a buyers market. Couple that with the dismantlement of labour unions, police state, and junk culture in order to keep people in line.

[Impaler[WrG]]

TripleDoc I pray that was a Joke post

[SlowwHand]

Let me tell y'all about a job interview I had yesterday for what was termed a "Coordinator" position.

The guy asked me did I realize what the position was about.
I told him that from the position description and title, it seemed to me to be of a logistical nature.
He told me it was, at a very low level, and called it clerk work.
Said he would be hiring Operational Managers in the near future ( and used the damned dreaded "O" word concerning this position).
Yet he showed good grace by continuing to speak with me.

Me- I understand.
He- You understand?
Me- Hmmm. Copy all.
He- (laughs) No need for further verification of military service, I don't suppose.
What would your friends say about you, were I to bring them in for discussion?
Me- Friends? (Because in thinking ahead I was assuming bosses or co-workers)
He- (laughs, again) Yes, friends. People you hang around with? You know.
NOW, ACS crosses my mind, for SOME ungodly reason
Me- Nothing that would get me hired here, I can tell you that much.