Your SID level experiences

[vmxa1]

I would think seafaring is a big boost in that map. You not only want the lowered chance of sinking, but the extra movement to cover more tiles. At a 2 tile per turn, it takes a long time to find anyone other civs, if you have a route to them.

So that is what I was talking about. It could be a real bugger to find a neighbor off your island in the world before turn 60.
You would need a lot of luck.

In my game, I had more than three ocean tiles in all directions and only a 2 move ship. This is not going to be profitable. I do not even see anything to point me a direction.

[vmxa1]

I am glad to see soem people are taking the leap and maybe you or someone will hit on a strategy for a map that will work. Well I mean one that is not over the top.

I am not willing to give myself stacks of units to start the game in order to win.

I will have to go to CFC and read the HoF rules to see what they are.

[Drachen]

Originally posted by vmxa1

Using far below the std nuber of civs for the given map is probably an aid to the player, but I could be talked out of that position. This is because it could lead to a KAI much sooner, but I would ten to hurt the AI's tech race. This may not be a big factor, given the research bonus at Sid.

I chose those 8 civs because 1. No huts makes choosing expansionist for opponents unfair IMO. 2. I didn’t want them to start with Alphabet/Curraghs. 3. I didn’t want any AI be culturally linked to me for startup…I want at least little room to Rex.

I’m unsure about the number of AIs. Six is the HOF minimum for large maps so I think eight is fair but I just haven’t played enough games with different numbers to have a good feel for how games play out with different #s. Killer AIs are a problem just as you pointed out. I lost my last game because a killer AI arose and it just seemed unstoppable. I had a worldwide alliance against him and sabotaged the United Nations about six times but that meant I didn’t have the gold to steal tech. He was too far away to invade and so when he got the sixth or seventh spaceship part and nobody else had even gotten tanks I called it and decided to live by the sword in my next game, i.e., the one I posted the screenshots from.

[Drachen]

Originally posted by vmxa1


In my game, I had more than three ocean tiles in all directions and only a 2 move ship. This is not going to be profitable. I do not even see anything to point me a direction.

Curraghs sink about half the time so you can suicide your way across the gulf with multiple ships if need be. The rewards demand the sacrifice.

[vmxa1]

I just reread the HoF rules. They seem fair to me. The only one I am concrned about is the allow culture victory.

First I always hate it and second I feel it wil be very hard to prevent the AI from a culture win on contients or pangea.

[Drachen]

Originally posted by vmxa1

I will have to go to CFC and read the HoF rules to see what they are.

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showth...threadid=75976

Aeson: I hope you will not be offended if I quote you.

"HOF Rules
Game Types:

Only single player epic games are allowed. The 'Play Last World' option is not allowed. Scenarios are not allowed.


World Settings:

Any default world settings are allowed. You may choose the map's Size, Barbarian, Landform, Water Level, Climate, Temperature, and Age settings. You may enter a seed number for the map only if you have not used that seed before in the game or the editor for a map with similar settings (Size, Landform, Water Level).


Difficulty Levels:

Any of the default difficulty levels are acceptable, and will be ranked according to other games of similar difficulty. C3C games at Demi-god difficulty will be ranked against Civ/PtW Deity games. C3C Deity and Sid will have their own new difficulty rankings.


Opponents:

You may select who your opponents are. This change is mainly to reduce the already tedious task of choosing a map to play on.

You must have at least the following number of opponents per mapsize: (will be the same for any game type)

Tiny: 2
Small: 3
Standard: 4
Large: 6
Huge: 8


Victory Conditions:

Necessary:

- Allow Conquest Victory
- Allow Cultural Victory
- Allow Diplomatic Victory
- Allow Domination Victory
- Allow Space Race Victory
- Preserve Random Seed
- Allow Cultural Conversions (PtW/C3C only)

Player's Discretion:

- Respawn AI Players
- Culturally Linked Starting Loc.

Disallowed:

- Wonder Victory
- Accellerated Production
- Elimination
- Regicide
- Mass Regicide
- Victory Point Scoring
- Capture the Princess


AI Aggression Levels: (C3C only)

Allowed:

- Least Aggressive
- Less Aggressive
- Normal
- More Aggressive
- Most Aggressive


Modifications:

Graphics modifications are allowable. So are setting the colors and names of the civilizations. Any changes beyond this are disallowed.


Versions:

Acceptable:

Civ 1.29f
PtW 1.14f
PtW 1.21f
PtW 1.27f
C3C 1.00f
C3C 1.02f
C3C 1.12f
C3C 1.15f

For patches visit Civilization III: Patch & Updates


Exploits and Cheats:

The following list of exploits and cheats may be incomplete. If you have a question regarding the validity of a tactic please feel free to ask in the Civ3 - Hall of Fame Discussion Forums.

Green exploits - allowable.
Orange exploits - may result in your game being excluded.
Red exploits and cheats - disallowed.

View Opponents - Using the F10 screen 'View Opponents' list to find out what civs the AI are playing in your game. (Civ/PtW/C3C)

Prebuilding - Using one improvement or unit as a pre-build for another not available to build yet. (Civ/PtW/C3C)

Palace Jump - Disbanding or otherwise losing your capitol will result in the Palace being relocated to another of your cities. (Civ/PtW/C3C)

FP rank bug - Cities around the FP are not affected the same by corruption as cities around the Palace. Placement of the Palace as far away from your 'core' as possible thus can drastically reduce corruption. (Civ/PtW)

RCP - A city placement scheme some would call an exploit. (Civ/PtW)

ICS - A city placement scheme some would call an exploit. (Civ/PtW/C3C)

ROP Backstab - Attacking a civ which you have an ROP with can allow you to get into perfect position before the attack. This carries a heavy reputation hit. (Civ/PtW/C3C)

ROP Resource Denial - Signing an ROP and using your units to block or hamper AI movement in their own territory.

Scout Resource Denial - Using a Scout or other non-military unit to block or hamper AI movement in their own territory.

Short Rushing - Breaking into the build sequence using 'Big Picture', or 'Unit Build' options, you can rush remaining shields before the production for that turn is calculated. This allows for finishing a build either by completing the current build in total, or rushing something else that is slightly less costly, and allowing the regular production to finish the build. Other similar options, like making sure citizens will not riot and changing prebuilds during this phase are also allowed. (Civ/PtW/C3C)

GPT for Upfront - Signing GPT for upfront compensation from the AI, and then using a declaration of war or disconnect of trade route to cancel the deal. Comes with a reputation hit in some cases, in others it is free. (Civ/PtW/C3C)

GPT bug - Doubling of GPT deals in C3C 1.00f and 1.02f. May result in the exclusion or eventual removal of a game if the game is played specifically to exploit it by offering cash for GPT and vice versa. Regular use of GPT deals is allowable. (C3C)

Changing Laborers pre-Production Phase - Breaking into the build sequence and changing Laborers from high commerce tiles to high production tiles by navigating through the city arrows or F1. Changing the Laborers in a city which has already completed it's production phase is allowable though. (Civ/PtW/C3C)

Mobilization Exploit - Breaking into the build sequence and changing Laborers to generate infinite shields. (PtW)

Reloading - Reloading a save to try and change game events is not allowed. You may reload if the game crashes, you have started a new playsession, or to avoid Domination victory.

Save File Editing - Use of any program or utility to modify a save file.

Modifying Default Game Rules - Other than the civ colors and names.

Use of non-Acceptable Utility Programs - Use of any utility program not on the acceptable utility programs list.


Acceptable Utility Programs:

MapStat - Gives the domination limit, and how close you are to it. Use of Mapstat options to generate knowlege of the AI that is otherwise hidden from you in your game is not acceptable though.

Apollo - Gives a prediction on when Cultural victory would be triggered.

Trade Assist - Gives a quick view on diplomatic options available.

HOF Map Finder - Automates generating maps, screenshots of the starting location, and checks the domination limit for you.

CrpMapStat - A domination limit utility that works with C3C."

[Drachen]

Originally posted by vmxa1
I just reread the HoF rules. They seem fair to me. The only one I am concrned about is the allow culture victory.

First I always hate it and second I feel it wil be very hard to prevent the AI from a culture win on contients or pangea.

It's a balancing act, no doubt, but I'm going to try it anyway and if I can't win it in a few months then I'll think about adopting different rules.

Cheers

[vmxa1]

I do not mind a suicide run, but I had no idea in what direction to go for it. No culture borders came into view.

I feel island maps are my weakest point as I play every few of them.

[DrSpike]

Island maps require IMO the most skill to play well. They also lead to a different style of game from standard maps, so I try to play all types.

[vmxa1]

Since C3C I sort of felt it was not fair to play with lot of water. Especially if you take a seafaring civ, but at the highest levels it probably is offset by the AI bonus.

The AI does not make curraghs and will not do suicide runs, you have that advantage. Even in contient game at emperor, you can get contacts with most or all of the civs, while they have none with other lands.

At Sid that does not work for the most part as they will soon have gallies and be able to cross sea tiles. The lighthouse will soon be up and now they may get across to all the lands.

I am not sure what the skills are, I can see that you need to use a slightly different strategy though. What skills are you refering to?

[Dominae]

The AI definitely builds Curraghs on Sid level. Still no suicide behaviour though (of course).


Dominae

[ErikM]

Here is how my game have been developing so far.

Opening moves: I went with warrior,warrior,worker,settler,granary. I want 2nd worker ASAP to chop some forest and help with the granary. I will also build a coastal city before granary to start exploring the coastline.

4000: Settle on the spot. Salamanca: warrior; laborer on forest to avoid shield waste. Worker 3 to BG. Research Writing at min science.
3950: Worker: mine.
3900: Switch Salamanca's laborer to cow.
3800: Warrior (Rambo) done, explores South, Salamanca: warrior.
3700: Salamanca size 2, laborer to BG.
3650: 2nd warrior (Rocky) done, explores Northwest, laborer to forest for 5spt, Salamanca: worker. Worker finishes mine and starts roading.
3550: Worker done, moves 1. Salamanca: settler
3500: Road done. 1st worker 2, 2nd worker road.
3450: 1st worker road (to the future city site). Rambo spots orange border.
3400: Salamanca size 2.
3350: 2nd worker 1 to chop forest.
3300: 1st worker 4 to chop another forest. Rambo meets Ottomans. They have 6 cities, BW, Masonry, WC, and CB. Lack alphabet. Can swap WC for alphabet (but not masonry). We'll wait. Rambo continues South.
3150: Settler done, settler 323 to new city site, Salamanca: granary.
3100: 2nd worker finishes chopping and starts roading. Niagara Falls (NF) founded. NF: curragh.
3050: 1st worker finishes chopping, road.
2950: Rambo meets Zulu. They have 5 cities, BW, The Wheel, WC, and CB. 2nd Worker 996 to cow.
2900: 1st worker 8, mine. 2nd worker irrigate.

During AI turn cheers erupt at Salamanca as we find out that Zulu are at war with Ottomans. Zulu destroy one of Otto's cities in a bloody battle.

I won't keep a detailed log afterwards, just some important events.

2800: NF completes Curragh, curragh explores coastline to the south, NF: warrior (to be followed by settler)
2630: Granary done. No shield waste but Salamanca has grown to size 3 before granary was full. Thus: Salamanca: warrior while we fill out granary. With a full granary, Salamanca grows every second turn and generates 32 shields in 4 turns. Use as a settler factory, switch worker to tobacco every 4th turn before growing to size 5 so that NF can use mined BG to boost shield output.
2550: Salamanca completes warrior and switches to non-stop settler production. Curragh spots blue border. We receive news that some mysterious people called English complete Colossus (which means England enters their Golden Age).
2510: Meet Sumerians. They also lack alphabet.
2350: Curragh spots green borders.
2390: Salamanca and NF both complete settlers.

Both settlers move south to hopefully block Ottoman's expansion using a relatively narrow penninsula as a chokepoint. I'll backfill later on. Sumerians finish Pyramids. Curragh meets Aztecs. Everybody but Zulu work on Oracle, so they must have Mysticism as well. It looks like I have found everyone on my continent, so it's trading time!

Ottomans: Alphabet+54g for Masonry+BW+CB
Aztecs: Alphabet for Mysticism+58g
Zulu: Masonry+Alphgabet+Mysticism for The Wheel+Iron Working+22g
Sumers: Alphabet for WC+6g
Ottomans: IW for 107g.

We have horses and we have a shot at iron. It's in the extended radius of Ottoman's city. Unfortunately there is no good city spot immediately close to it. Well, Ottomans must die!.. eventually.

2310: Sumerians finish Oracle.
2230: Grand River; Allegheny; Salamanca completes settler. Conscript warrior from hut at Grand River.

Meanwhile, Rocky finished exploring our Northern territories and is near Grand River. Rambo was recalled for border patrol duties some time ago (didn't keep notes). Our three brave waarriors will try to prevent Ottomans from settling in "our" land.

2190: And Sumerians as well
1990: A picture is worth 1000 words

[DrSpike]

Vmxa, I mean island maps generally require more skill. Mostly this means more decisions in setting up a productive empire, and more difficult invasions. I grant you in C3C the suiciding curragh is a counteracting force with a seafaring civ, but hopefully that will be addressed soon.

[ErikM]

1910: Despite our efforts, Ottoman settler pairs did sneak through I take a deep breath, buy Horseback Riding from Ottos for 16gpt and politely ask them to remove their troops. It's war of course. Our warriors heroically whack Otto's two settler pairs. 4 slaves, lost my conscript. I don't have much of a military but Sumerian settlers mucking around in Otto's territory block Otto's from sending reinforcements. We'll try to keep it that way If push comes to shove, I hope we'll be able to buy out Ottomans for Writing which we are about to discover.
1750: First 50 turns, we are still alive. Writing done. 8 cities, 1 settler, 8 warriors, two curragh, two workers, 4 slaves.

That's it for now We'll see how it goes.
Everybody has writing (well, I don't know about Ottos, obviously) but they got it only recently. Zulu have Math, everybody has Polytheism. After establishing embassies with Zulu and Sumerians we notice that Zulu are still at war with Ottos and apparently Sumerians are at war with Aztecs.

I wonder if I have a shot at Philosophy. It will take me 16 turns full steam at 20%lux which should be enough. Celts just completed SoZ so undiscovered tribes are probably up to date.

[ErikM]

Mini-map:

[ErikM]

And our Maginot line:

[vmxa1]

Originally posted by Dominae
The AI definitely builds Curraghs on Sid level. Still no suicide behaviour though (of course).


Dominae

I have seen a few mention that they do, but have yet to see any in my games or anyone elses screenies so far. That is not conclusive, but it is surely not common.

Of course that is not a big deal at Sid as they will have gallies quite soon, even if isolated.

It could be that by the time I see the gallies, they have scrapped curraghs, but that is not the AI style. So I presume they skiped them, at least in my games.

Did you see them in beta or in the patched game?

[vmxa1]

ErikM could you include the full mini map window. Then we can see the map and the date for a better idea of the situation.

[Dominae]

If the Sid AI starts with Alphabet, you can be pretty sure it will build Curraghs. You can check this out for yourself by playing a couple of games in Debug mode.


Dominae

[ErikM]

Originally posted by vmxa1
ErikM could you include the full mini map window. Then we can see the map and the date for a better idea of the situation.

It's a couple of posts above. The year is 1750BC.

How do I include a complete screenshot, BTW? I tried to post a full map view, but it tells me "the screenshot is too big, max image size is 800x0" when I try to upload it.

[vmxa1]

Originally posted by ErikM

It's a couple of posts above. The year is 1750BC.

How do I include a complete screenshot, BTW? I tried to post a full map view, but it tells me "the screenshot is too big, max image size is 800x0" when I try to upload it.

I just use Irfanview and resize to 800 and save as Jpeg.

Looks like this:

[vmxa1]

Originally posted by Dominae
If the Sid AI starts with Alphabet, you can be pretty sure it will build Curraghs. You can check this out for yourself by playing a couple of games in Debug mode.


Dominae

I will try to get in a shot, but I almost always have a civ with Alpha.

The screen below is America, IIRC they have it from being expansionist. They had gallies and no curraghs when I found them.

I thought of another possibility. Maybe they lost theirs to barbs.
I know I lost even Dromon's to barbs at Sid.
I can see why some play with no barbs, as even sedintary can maul you from their camps and ships. I am losing elite horses.

A straight up vet Drom, lost to a barb galley. I never used them before, but I kept reading they kicked butt in Au501.
The second one went down to barbs as well, but it took two with it. The RNG can be cruel at times. The only time I really went out to sea both curraghs sank.

[vmxa1]

BTW ErikM this shot is 800x600. If you are using a bmp it will be too large.

[vmxa1]

Well I finally got a chance to do a debug run and India made a curragh and was making a second one, so I guess that ends that.

Thanks for the tip.

[ErikM]

1000 BC update.

Statistics:
14 cities, 46 population points.
15 workers, 14 warriors, 3 archers, 1 MW, 2 curragh.
23 slaves (if I counted correctly).

Contacts: all expect England; just spotted English borders.

Techs: all ancient techs except Construction, Currency, Republic, and Monarchy.
Researching Republic with a scientist.
Income 79, corruption 18, +52gpt at 9.0.1, treasury 1656 gold.
Resources: two Dyes, one Silk, two Horses, one Iron (connected by outside cultural borders at the moment).

1 granary, 3 barracks, some libraries are expected soon.
299 shields accumulated towards GreatLib in Niagara Falls; completion expected in 8 turns. No other known civ has Literature yet, so it looks like I'll be able to claim it.

Notes:
After border clashes with Ottomans we captured Izmit using human wave attacks. Lost something like 3 warriors and 1 archer. Soon thereafter we signed peace treaty with Ottomans due to lack of offensive troops. Izmit is important though as it puts Iron strictly inside our borders. Actually it looks like it is a single source of iron on my continent, although there may be some unspotted unconnected Iron.

Meanwhile, Sumerian settlers accumulated near Iroquis borders trying to sneak in. So right after the end of the Turkish affair we asked Sumerians to remove their troops, which not surprisinly led to war. The objective of this war was purely a slave raid + some war happiness. Sumer offensive actions were limited to dropping two horses near Niagara falls which were promptly eliminated. I have signed MAs with Zulus, Ottos, and Aztecs to keep Sumerians occupied elsewhere. The war is still ongoing, but is largely phony.

Meanwhile, our suicidal curragh have reached second continent and made contact with Celts and Mongols. Celts are very much a superpower with 26 (!) cities and all resources including Ivory. Mongols are second on the power graph. England is probably dead as they have lost London (together with the Colossus) to Celts. Celts are currently at war with the Mongols. Unfortunately there is nothing I can do to intervene there.

All ancient wonders except GreatLib were built. Celts have the Colossus (captured from English), the Great Wall, and SoZ. Mongols have the Mausoleum, Zulus - the Great Lighthouse. Sumerians have the rest (Pyramids, ToA, Oracle, and HG).

Sumers, Zulus, Aztecs, Celts, and English had their Golden Age already.

Immediate Plans: finish GL; revolt to Republic (unfortunately nobody has it yet). After revolt I'll try to finish semi-dead Ottomans, start my GA and go after Sumerians.

Screenshot:

[vmxa1]

ErikM the Celts are the type of a situation that is so scary at Sid. One civ runs over all the others on their contient and becomes a monster.

If no other AI is large enough to stay close in culture, you can lose the game, just as you are making a serious move.

[vmxa1]

The first war with the Ottoman, what sort of numbers did you see attacking you?

This is another very dangerous spot. If you get into a war early and have limited units, you can be in real trouble. If the AI comes with 30-40 units in short order, which they often will.

I had a break with one game where it was just me and the mongols on a large land mass. The bad news was they had most of the land and lots of cities and units. The other bad thing is they never had anyone to fight.

The break was they were disorganized and tend to have the units spread out and they had no horses.

In games where I had 3-5 AI's on the landmass, they almost always ran over me early with waves of troops.

You cannot demand they leave or anything as that is war.

[vmxa1]

I broke this up for easier reading. The other point I was wondering about is the cash build up.

The AI always demand tribute from me if I have any money. I have had them demand 9 gold, all I had. The more I had the more they want, so I tend to not pile it up.

There is no way to have as many units as they have in the ancient age. I mean they start with something like 24 to your 0.

They will have 4 or 5 cities up before you get the second most of the time. In short order they will have a dozen cities and will be making units soon in many of them.

Maybe I am doing sometign wrong, well of course I am, but if I do not get an army or two fairly quickly, I find it very hard to stay alive.

So I am looking forward to your reports. BTW I have not tried any of the huge maps to see if that is a better deal or not.

[ErikM]

Originally posted by vmxa1
ErikM the Celts are the type of a situation that is so scary at Sid. One civ runs over all the others on their contient and becomes a monster.

Yes... I have no idea how to deal with them. I obviously cannot fight them before Navigation. They already steamrolled English. The only option available to me is to ally with the Mongols against them, but they already fight them With Ancient Cavalry and Gaelic Swordsman, I am not optimistic about Mongol chances... And they already have 2000 culture

The first war with the Ottoman, what sort of numbers did you see attacking you?

Not much, a couple of warriors and a couple of archers. Izmit was defended by three spearmen. To my luck, they were fighting Zulus when I met them (they still do although half-heartedly). And Zulus kicked their a** once they went into their Golden Age. It's a feature of Sid methinks - AIs start with so many troops that they can start a war pretty much straight away.

In games where I had 3-5 AI's on the landmass, they almost always ran over me early with waves of troops.

That's why I liked this map. There is some room for expansion but I only immediately border Ottomans. And there is a narrow strip of land separating my part of continent from invaders. Still (as you can see from above screenshot) Zulus have managed to sneak in a settler after getting Map Making.

I agree that if you start in the middle of 3-4 AIs there is nada you can do - you cannot outexpand them and they will steamroll you before you can say boo. Ottomans were in this unfortunate position on my map.

There is no doubt imho that any arbitrary map cannot be won at Sid (or even on Deity for that matter). You need a good strategic location for yourself and poor for neigbouring AIs. Neighbouring AIs should also lack resources. If Ottos managed to connect their iron (it's on the mountain near Izmit) I am sure I wouldn't be able to stop them, Zulu help nonwithstanding.

The AI always demand tribute from me if I have any money. I have had them demand 9 gold, all I had. The more I had the more they want, so I tend to not pile it up.

That's another advantage of starting with Alphabet. Once I had Writing I lined up everyone to fight Sumerians. So I did not have any demands yet.

Another substantial change from vanilla Civ (I never had PTW) is this 50-turn min research time. It really slows down your development as min-science research gambits are much less likely to work. That's why I think it is essential to start with Alphabet. On Sid, tech costs are twice higher than on Emperor. So Alphabet costs 300 beakers to research. To research it faster then 50 turns, you need to generate more than 6 beakers per turn. It is next to impossible to get that kind of dough early in the game in the game, so you might as well do 50-turn research. But then you will fall hopelessy behind since AIs will be likely to have all first and second level techs by then.

The best research sequence is imho to start with Alphabet, try to trade for Masonry, and research Mathematics full steam. Frenchies can do it right away and can probably get to Math first. Then trade Math for Writing, prebuild for GL, and research Literature. So choosing French as Bamspeedy did in his game definitely has some merit. But methinks Greeks or Koreans (Sci+Com) or Byzantines (Sea+Sci) might be better. The problem with Iroquois (and French) is that culture is so bloody expensive... Agricultural is a nice trait but you can live without it on a good start. And a good starting spot is a must anyways.

I am looking forward to your reports.

Thanks I don't promise regular updates as I will be busy at work next week especially but I'll definitely try to finish this game (until it is either won or obviously lost, at least).

[vmxa1]

I forget what are the settings. I think it was a huge map and random, right? What are the barbs and how many civs did you end up with in the game (F10). Is it archi or contients, looks contients?

Anyway good luck. I am still mulling over what civ is a good one to use.