Your SID level experiences - Page 17

vmxa1 · March 21, 2004, 14:52

Quote:

Originally posted by ErikM
10AD
Ulundi captured.
Zulu are down to two tundra cities and I made peace with them as their destruction will only serve to increase my tech costs. I substantially outculture them by now, so I don't have to worry about culture flips much (which was the case with Sumeria).

According to the formula you will be better off killing the Zulu in regards to research. The flipside is if you can beat tech out of them.

The number of civs in the game increases your cost to research and lowers the AI's. You get a reduce cost for each civ you know that knows a tech. So if Zulu os not going to get any tech before you do, they are hurting your research pace.

ErikM · March 21, 2004, 14:56

Paddy, Drachen, Vmxa, thanks for your kind words

Drachen, I cannot quite figure out what my research strategy should be at this stage. The Great Library has not expired yet but it does not do me much good at this stage. Celts have Theology (they just started talking to me) but no Engineering yet. Aztecs have Invention and are probably researching Gunpowder. But they don't know each other and so don't trade. Remaining civs seem to be to weak to do their own research.

I can do research in 5-7 turns/tech now at 70% science which leaves me a slight positive cash balance thanks to foreign payments. I technically do not need large cash surplus at this stage since I have finished upgrading my military and have libraries/ marketplaces/ courthouses pretty much in all my core cities.

I need Astronomy asap so that I can try to gain a foothold on the Celtic continent, preferrably before they get musketman. There are four ocean tiles between two continents, so I need caravels. So probably I'll switch to my own research now even if it is a bit of a waste.

cheers,
-- ErikM

vmxa1 · March 21, 2004, 16:35

If some civs do not have contact at this point, I would not rush into astro. Once you get it, the price drops for others and they will soon have contacts. This is what will let them run off in research.

I stay on the lower brach, until I know they are working on eductation.

ErikM · March 25, 2004, 16:44

Dear Mum,

Thank you very much for your letter and blueberry preserves you have sent me. My corporal and the oldies told me they were delicious.

Army is a really nice place, Mum. We are accommodated in a destroyed temple just near the Aztec border, and it is very comfortable, considering. We rookies stick together and everybody is friendly, except our drill sergeant who is (censored) and the weather is nice, too.

Aztecia is a beautiful country Mum, with many hills and rivers. I think I will move there after the war. Aztec man are very savage, though. They mostly fight with polearms, so our guys call them simply Poles. Fortunately they don't attack us often as Iroquois Mounted Forces (IMF) stand guard but they pillaged and burned everything they could near our camp in Lagash. They also have some guys with very long bows and they can do lots of damage if not spotted in time. We have captured some Aztec prisoners, who very mercifully put on road construction, and judging by them Aztecs are really unpleasant types. They are downright dismissive of our culture. All they talk about is their wine and their cheese and their cathedrals and their gladiator teams and how we, Iroquois, are just dirty barbarians. Imagine that! I tried to explain to them that there is nothing like some hearty porridge with bacon, and that our barracks are really very comfortable once you get used to bedbugs, but to no avail.

Aztec woman, on the other hand, are very beautiful. They have nice, firm (censored) eyes and black, curly (censored) hair. Whenever we get a leave, we go to the Army (edited by censor) facility for basic traing, and I have to say that our girls back home are simply (edited by censor) superior in every way.

Now, just like everybody else, I could not wait to start training with the mace, but our drill sergeant told us that we have to grow brains first. So for now we were assigned to guard our workers who construct new road into Aztecia to speed up IMF advance. Our Great Chief Hiawatha also ordered to construct a new fortress right in the middle of Aztecia to shorten up our supply lines and to provide a safe haven for our troops. So we guard our settlers as well.

Oh yeah Mum, I also forgot to mention that as soon as new fortress will be completed, we will also get an access to some of those famous Tlatelolco vineyards Aztecs are so proud of. So maybe you should tell Dad to buy some stocks in this bottle-making company that Uncle Silver Moonshine runs.

Here is a pic of me on duty, drawn by one of the Aztec prisoners:

ErikM · March 25, 2004, 16:46

As soon as new fortress will be finished, IMF will start an assault on Tlatelolco itself. Rumor is that it will happen "any moment now". Also I heard that orders are to destroy the city completely for shock-and-awe factor and also to show those Aztecs what we think of their so-called culture. I thought at first that it would be nasty to destroy such a huge city, but our drill sergeant told us that there would be little civilian casualties. Simply, all able-bodied man will be sent back home as slaves and all able-bodied women would be (edited by censor) gainfully employed, too.

Mum, I also thought a lot about my career after demobilization and I have decided to become a Scientist. Our drill sergeant told us that there would be so many jobs for Scientists after the war that everyone can apply. Some guys from the post-war employment agency even put a recruitment poster in our barracks, saying "Change your sword to MS Word!" (don't know what it is, Mum. Something scientific). At first I was surprised because our teacher at school used to tell us than not everyone can become a Scientist. "Doing Science requires brains and dedication," I recall him saying. "That's why our glorious nation have never discovered anything of importance". A smart man, our teacher was. I wonder why he was transferred to the correctional facility for juvenile criminals in the Iron Mines.

But our drill sergeant has assured me that that no special qualifications are required, as in the immediate future we will be mostly doing Social Sciences. He says that really all you need to become a Scientist is abundant food. To this end our Ministry of Progress intends to initiate new "Food for Thought" program. Rumors are that each scientist will get a slave who will work in the fields to ensure uninterrupted food supply. I think, Mum, that this Science thingy surely beats working in the mines.

I often think, Mum, how lucky I am to be born in such a nice, democratic country as our Republic where opportunities are open for everyone and where every Citizen can have a personal slave.

Oops, mum, looks like I have to go. An assault on Tlatelolco has started!

Yours,
Eager Beaver
3rd Infantry
Tlatelolco Sector

ErikM · March 25, 2004, 16:48

From The Hiawatha's Diaries, 10AD-250AD

10 AD
Leader (#13) // Leaders were mostly used to rush marketplaces and courthouses

30 AD
Bloodbath near Lagath. Killed approximately 20 Aztec pikeman clearing the road into Aztec lands.

50 AD
Heal/advance/kill more pikeman

70 AD
"Strong military relative to Aztecs", according to our Military Advisor

90 AD
Gewayuga founded; assault on Tlatelolco started

110 AD
Tlatelolco destroyed (16 slaves).
Sold Chivalry to Mongols for 106g, 17gpt, and alliance against Celts (they are at war with the already, but it seems like Mongols do not have horces, unfortunately)

130AD
Gunpowder; research Theology (5 turns at 2.7.1, which leaves us with 58 gpt balance)
Leader (#14)

150AD
Captured Tenochitlan, Bal-Tibira
Leader (#15)
// Here is an example of AI tactics for you. Yup, they have moved 19 pikeman out of besieged Bal-Tibira to hunt some slaves.

ErikM · March 25, 2004, 16:49

170AD
Leader (#16)
Xochicalco captured

190AD
Rest/consolidate

210AD
Captured Texcoco, Teotihuacan

230AD
Theology, research Education (5 turns at 3.6.1, 154gpt balance)

250AD
Captured Tlaxcala, Tlacopan, Calixtlahuaca.
Aztecs destroyed.

Sign MA with Zulus. Move some knights to their territory, then break peace treaty.
Capture Isandiwana, Intombe
Zulu destroyed.

Continent cleared.

Here is our map in 250AD:

vmxa1 · March 25, 2004, 17:07

You got to love the AI, moving defensive units out of a city under attack. It does it against other civs as well. Units that have very low attack value, no less.

Drachen · March 26, 2004, 23:59

Hey Erik;

Another great update and I don’t see any reason why you won’t win your game although my experience leads me to believe that you are very likely to experience massive war weariness upon your invasion unless you get a ROP with the Mongols and find a sea lane to get you to/through their turf. I doubt that I’d do that though since the direct four tile invasion is so much more convenient in every other way. Perhaps you may avoid a government change if you send a settler and some workers with your invasion, build a town/trap, sue for peace, rush a temple, and maybe eke out a two tile culture barrier with some forest to slow his fast movers when you re-declare. I don’t know that I’d bother with that either since you seem to be in a position to weather a government change with little ill effect. I mean…you’ll be on his turf and driving for his heartland and that might well be when he’s climbing the Communist side of the tech ladder which will keep your Cavalry effective for some time. Good luck.

My current game is with the Iroquois and not having to get Pottery via trade early on really helps with your Rex and subsequent GL build. I still think Gandhi has a lot to offer on larger maps, but I have to agree with you that playing Hiawatha solves a lot of problems in the early game on a standard Sid map. I’m just starting my post GL early wars but I have high hopes for this game. Loads of luxuries and resources at hand with the dogs of war loose upon the land.

Keep us posted

ErikM · March 28, 2004, 00:23

Hi Drachen,

Wish you luck in your Iroquois game. I actually never played them in vanilla Civ (since their old traits were just about my least favorite) but in C3C they seem to be simply superb. They start with two out of three crucial early techs (Masonry is the only tech they really have to trade) and their combination of traits & UU remains helpful throughout an entire game. The big thing about MWs is that shields invested into them are not wasted - they upgrade rather nicely to knights/cavalry, so military is always up to date. I think they might even survive without iron (although it will obviously enforce peace during middle ages).

As for my game, well I landed on the Celts continent. Will see how it goes. I'll try to post an update tomorrow night.

Good luck,
-- ErikM

vmxa1 · March 28, 2004, 02:49

The change to Iroquois in C3C made them much better, but I have not used them much in any of the flavors of CivIII so far.

ErikM · March 28, 2004, 22:33

Flags have been lowered in Salamanca as the nation mourns untimely demise of the English, yet another victim of the Celtic agression. "It is now clear to everyone," said Hiawatha in his memorial speech, "that Celts will stop at nothing in their their bid for world domination. We shall always remember our English allies - their courage, their determination, and these 84gpt they owed us."
-Salamanca Times, 01/04/260

For the first time in Iroquois history, government will run a budget deficit for the fiscal year of 290AD, as funds were diverted for research into the Music Theory. "So they tell us that we need this useless technology to finish construction of some overpriced cathedral in Oil Springs," Mr. Rusty Hammer of the Laborist party has said. "Mark my words: this J.S.Bach cathedral is nothing but another government ploy to raise taxes."
-Marketplace Weekly, 08/09/290

Recent studies in the University of Salamanca have firmly established that all speculations that Earth is round are completely untrue. In reality, Earth is shaped like a beer can: a ship can sail westward and eventually return to the same spot. However, if one attempts to sail North or South, he will eventually fall from the edge of the world."
-University of Salamanca Press Release, 06/21/360

The Green Party in the Parlament has called government attention to the enviromental issues. "A continuing process of deforestation," Mr. Treehugger, a spokesman for the Green party, has said, "destroys natural habitats for endangered species and threatens the very existence of everything we hold dear. What do we need these mines for if the future of our children is threatened?" In response to his speech, Great Chief Hiawatha has assured voters that he cares a great deal about environment. Further, he has pledged to return all the lands on the Celtic continent to their pristine state.
- Allegheny Daily News, 07/14/390

"So Celts now offer us a peace treaty. Back in 130BC, they have promised to bury us and now Brennus seeks peace. We hear much from Etremont about a new policy of reform and openness. Sure, now that they have conquered just about their entire continent, after years of death and destruction, Brennus wants our silks, our dyes, and our gems to placate his masses. But did he not destroy English in the past? Did he not attack peaceful Mongols? Did he not recently razed a glorious Mongol city of Tabriz? Against a foe like this, there cannot be no truce. If there is one symbol of the evilness of the Celtic Empire, it is the Great Wall of Entremont... What does Brennus need it for? To keep his citizens from leaving his country? Mr. Brennus, tear down this wall!"
- Selected Speeches of Hiawatha, vol. 27, 400AD

"Knights and Crusaders of the Iroquois Expeditionary Forces: You are about to embark upon the Great Crusade, toward which we have striven these many years. The hopes and prayers of liberty-loving people everywhere march with you.

Your task will not be an easy one. Your enemy is well trained, well equipped and battle-hardened. He will fight savagely.

But this is the year 410AD! Much has happened since the Celtic triumphs of yesteryears. The tide has turned! The free men of the world are marching together to Victory!

I have full confidence in your courage, devotion to duty and skill in battle. We will accept nothing less than full victory!"
- Selected Speeches of Hiawatha, vol. 29, 410AD
(well, with some credits to Kennedy, Reagan, and Eisenhower

)

ErikM · March 28, 2004, 22:53

250AD-450AD
With only one war (and completely phony one at that), things were relatively peaceful and nothing much of importance happened. Brief summary of events:

260AD
Celts destroy English. Celts discover Education.
Mongols make peace with Celts.
Pay Mongols 260g for alliance against Celts.
Extract 60g back from Mongols for renegotiating peace treaty.

290AD
Education, research Music Theory (4 turns at 2.7.1, -10 gpt cash balance). Build universities in all core cities (was prebuilding with cathedrals in most decent cities).

310AD
Celts have Invention; sell Invention to Mongols for 346g.

330AD
Music Theory, research Astronomy (in 5 turns eventually with some slider tweaking here and there)

350AD
Bach completed in Oil Springs

380AD
Astronomy, research Banking (5 turns at 3.6.1, +48gpt balance).
5 turn research is now easy with some small positive cash balance. Cannot do 4-turn research though without losing ~130gpt. Too bad I cannot finance research from technology sales.
Upgrade everything to caravels.

390AD
Caravels depart

400AD
Niagara Falls completes Copernicus Observarory.
Celts finish Sistine Chapel.

Hi Celts - heeere's Johny!

ErikM · March 28, 2004, 22:56

Military 400AD:

ErikM · March 28, 2004, 23:00

410AD
Sold Education to Mongols for 12g, 12gpt.
Landing!

ErikM · March 28, 2004, 23:20

420AD
Leader (#17) --> army.
SpiceCity founded.
Ratae Coritanorum, Segusio captured.

440AD
Banking, research Navigation (need to ship these spices home)
Scientific GL!!! Somebody named Guyasuta. Now, what do I do with him? I will complete Adam Smith in time with a prebuild and there are no wonders currently available. Using SGL on Pentagon seems like a waste. So I'll probably use him on Magellan's although I don't really need it. But at least Celts won't have it.
Eboranum, Augustodorum captured.

450AD
Celts have Gunpowder. Damn! Of course they have saltpeter.
Founded another helper city.
Brought two explorers to pillage Celtic resources.

460AD
Renewed my alliance with Mongols.
Rest/consolidate/quell resistance. Need to investigate map a bit before proceeding further.
Sent my Crusaders Army to pillage Iron and Ivory around Entremont.
Here's my current position:

ErikM · March 28, 2004, 23:23

[That's all for now]

Drachen · April 14, 2004, 10:19

I didn’t want to interrupt the narrative flow of the great posts over at Mountain Sages Sid thread so I thought I’d post a preliminary observation here. It seems possible that C3C 1.22 has changed the AI research priorities and nerfed the GL Gambit on standard maps with default settings and random opponents. In the last four or five games I’ve started I’ve found that Alphabet and Writing are discovered much earlier than was usual in 1.15b and that the AI Great Library build starts much earlier as well. The sample size is small but the results are consistent and in these few games the AI starts the GL so early that it becomes much less likely that we can get to literature in time to build it ourselves. I also noted in one game on a large map that the GL was obtainable but that I almost lost the race for it. That’s unusual for large maps and while it could be an aberration it could also be the result of changed AI research priorities. If any of you are observing this trend perhaps you could post your findings so that we can increase the sample size and get a clearer idea if AI research changes have actually occurred.

vmxa1 · April 14, 2004, 12:33

That is not good news. You should open a new thread to pose this question to get more feedback.

Mountain Sage · April 26, 2004, 06:20

In my tries the AI researches Alphabet, Writing and Philosphy at top speed (and the other techs probably also). If you don't research Philosophy at 100% with all the happiness-related problems etc.), you'll never make it to get Literature for free and start the GLibrary.
In one of my earliest trials, I moved the Settler the first turn at it costed me Philosphy (I replayed it without the moving).

Drachen · April 26, 2004, 07:12

Quote:

Originally posted by Mountain Sage
In my tries the AI researches Alphabet, Writing and Philosphy at top speed (and the other techs probably also). If you don't research Philosophy at 100% with all the happiness-related problems etc.), you'll never make it to get Literature for free and start the GLibrary.
In one of my earliest trials, I moved the Settler the first turn at it costed me Philosphy (I replayed it without the moving).

So your experience suggests that 1.22 has shifted research priorities?

Paddy · April 26, 2004, 07:35

Erik, you have some great stuff there

vmxa1 · April 26, 2004, 12:11

Quote:

Originally posted by Mountain Sage
In my tries the AI researches Alphabet, Writing and Philosphy at top speed (and the other techs probably also). If you don't research Philosophy at 100% with all the happiness-related problems etc.), you'll never make it to get Literature for free and start the GLibrary.
In one of my earliest trials, I moved the Settler the first turn at it costed me Philosphy (I replayed it without the moving).

This was not the case in 1.15, but may now be the norm. It was stated by some on CFC that you could get the beeline with just an all out on Philosophy.

This is not true on many 1.22 maps. I have even missed it with full out research on Writing and Phil. I have now found it could require all out from the start.

Lots of factors such as the growth and workers, but if I rex very hard and kick out units, it is hard to keep up any research. I often see the need for troops to stop barbs and that is a drag on research. I can't get by with just a few MP's.

I am trying some test on huge maps to see how it goes and so far it is the same, but worse. I failed to be first to Phil so far and will try all on the start.

Paddy · April 26, 2004, 13:42

Quote:

Originally posted by vmxa1

This was not the case in 1.15, but may now be the norm. It was stated by some on CFC that you could get the beeline with just an all out on Philosophy.

This is not true on many 1.22 maps. I have even missed it with full out research on Writing and Phil. I have now found it could require all out from the start.

Lots of factors such as the growth and workers, but if I rex very hard and kick out units, it is hard to keep up any research. I often see the need for troops to stop barbs and that is a drag on research. I can't get by with just a few MP's.

I am trying some test on huge maps to see how it goes and so far it is the same, but worse. I failed to be first to Phil so far and will try all on the start.

they do like to present challenges to us

vmxa1 · April 26, 2004, 16:48

I can now say I have made it first to Phil on a huge map 1300BC and built the GL on 875BC. I used the granary to get 5 turn start and added in 5 workers to get to size 12.

I have made no contacts and I am last in tech. I had to slow my expansion a tad, but now can blast out.

Mountain Sage · April 27, 2004, 09:35

Quote:

Originally posted by Drachen

So your experience suggests that 1.22 has shifted research priorities?

Well, that is my experience after 2 game starts and 4-5 trials. I don't know if its enough for statistical purposes.

But if it's true, it means that if your civ has not Alphabet as a start tech, you can forget about the GLibrary.

Drachen · April 27, 2004, 10:20

Quote:

Originally posted by Mountain Sage

Well, that is my experience after 2 game starts and 4-5 trials. I don't know if its enough for statistical purposes.

But if it's true, it means that if your civ has not Alphabet as a start tech, you can forget about the GLibrary.

It also means your going to miss the GLib a lot more often than before even if you start w/Alphabet on standard maps.

vmxa1 · April 27, 2004, 11:39

It sure seems so, but I really don't know what change caused it.

Mountain Sage · April 28, 2004, 04:58

Quote:

Originally posted by Drachen

It also means your going to miss the GLib a lot more often than before even if you start w/Alphabet on standard maps.

Maybe not, you can probably get it (almost) every time, but you need to:

1. Research Writing asap (50 turns), then Philosophy at 100%.
2. Build your 2nd city asap.
3. Build there a granary.
4. Build there a temple.
5. Pump it to size 8 min.
6. Work the tiles around it (needs some workers).
7. Palace pre-built.
8. Some military MP.
9. Get Pottery and Masonry from another civ. On archipelago, this means the first units will be curraghs.
10. Spare lots of gold to run a deficit for about 30 turns + 20-30% lux.
Did I forget something?
Of course, no rexxing before size 8... and don't move your settler on the 1st turn...

That makes a lot for a wonder

Drachen · April 28, 2004, 09:48

Mountain Sage;
That’s roughly the recipe I’d use to cook up the Great Library (GL) and you just might get it although at great expense to your Rex. I haven’t tried an all out GL rush through philosophy on a standard 1.22 with Seafaring AIs but in my opening post I presented an example of an AI starting the GL in 1400BC which is early enough that winning the race may not be assured even with your best efforts. I think the earliest I’ve built the GL is about 875BC but I’m pretty sure that can be improved upon. What’s the earliest you’ve been able to build it?